your thoughts on AFA ratings?

[janda the red]

hey peoples...

i'm kinda new to the buying vintage tf's scene and have been doing alot of looking and drooling at some of the figures offered for sale on ebay.

i keep coming across AFA rated gen 1 tf's.... they look so nice in thier little display cases, but they cost the earth compared to similar toys of a similar condition.


what does everyone here think about AFA?

is it a good thing....a bad thing?

has anyone here sent figures to the states to get graded? was it worth it ?

does anyone here actually buy AFA stuff?

pro's.....con's?


for a newbie like me, it seems like a good way to not get ripped off and buy a reissue or a copy by accident. i also like the idea of my precious dolly being protected from uv and additional damage/wear.

just curious to hear what a few fellow aussies think about this...

thanks in advance

janda :)

[Sharky]

i like the cases, not so much the grading... the prices seem outrageous compared to what they should be and i do believe a few knock offs have snuck through the "super keen" eyes of the "graders"

the fact they are grading loose toys now is a bit of a joke...(sometimes i think they will grade anything)

do we know what the long term effects are to the toy inside after a few years..

[Sky Shadow]

for a newbie like me, it seems like a good way to not get ripped off and buy a reissue or a copy by accident.

Some threads worth reading on this topic:

http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?p=113927#post113927
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=8375

Personally I think AFA grading is bizarre. Putting a toy in an acrylic box so it's never played with is like owning a car you never intend to drive. It takes something from fulfilling its intended function to being a commodity.

[Gutsman Heavy]

Pointless unless you wanna banish it to eBay forever listed at a horrifying price.

[Skullcruncher]

Personally I think AFA grading of a transformer in its original packing is awesome. Putting a 20 year old sealed toy in a case to give it the best chance to last another 20 years is all good in my books. Though Grading a loose transformer I find odd.

The display of several AFA's together is awesome however the grading scale is a bit of a mystery, I have sent items to AFA expecting a 70 at most and got an 80, while others 90 but they get an 80.

Yes they have made some well known mistakes grading KO's but im sure more people have been scammed buying KO's when thinking they are originals and because of the price they attract more attention and rightly so.

I have several of my favouritve transformers both loose and AFA'd. The AFA ones are out on display in the lounge (my partner actually likes these) while most loose ones sit on display shelves in the computer room or in boxes.

For buying on ebay I would say never ever use a buy now on an AFA item these prices are totally insane.

[Skullcruncher]

Some threads worth reading on this topic:

http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?p=113927#post113927
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=8375

Personally I think AFA grading is bizarre. Putting a toy in an acrylic box so it's never played with is like owning a car you never intend to drive. It takes something from fulfilling its intended function to being a commodity.

So your saying car museums are bad too? I know several people who have cars they only take out once or twice a year then cover it back up in the garage! They pay registration and insurance on them too.

[Vector Prime]

Personally I think AFA grading is bizarre. Putting a toy in an acrylic box so it's never played with is like owning a car you never intend to drive. It takes something from fulfilling its intended function to being a commodity.

But what if you already own another similar 'car' that you can play with? :p

I personally don't see anything wrong with encasing toys in sealed plastic, particularly vintage toys - if there was a desire to play with it, I suppose you could always buy a used/well-loved example to play with to your heart's content and leave your pristine one exactly that, pristine.

I don't collect any G1 but lately have been wanting to add two particular figures to my collection (original post here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?p=218206#post218206)) and the attraction of AFA graded stuff is very appealing to me for the fact that I don't ever intend on opening it up and playing with them.

They're purely a nostalgia trip for me and the way I see it, having it AFA graded and sealed will help to preserve my childhood memories of these two toys for the rest of my lifetime (hopefully).



Putting a 20 year old sealed toy in a case to give it the best chance to last another 20 years is all good in my books. Though Grading a loose transformer I find odd.

I totally agree with that point - it's all about preservation, whether it's due to sentimental or monetary value, it just helps it to last another generation.

[janda the red]

some interesting points you guys have made....

i'm not really the sort of collector that opens up his stuff though, so sealing something doesn't really bother me. i do however, like to have things on display....but 99% of the time, its displayed as i bought it....unopened.

it's funny though......my wife and i have this constant debate going about opening or not opening toys. she's rather vocal about the fact "toys are meant to be played with" while i'll always retort with "its art as it is.....dont touch it" opposites attract i guess.

@ sky: cheers for the links. informative threads mate. i like your commodity comment, dont know if i agree with you.....but you made me think alot more about it. ( my wife agree's with you.....lol )

@ skullcruncher: i like the idea of a couple of AFA'd figures on display in the lounge room... means they get to look awesome on the mantle piece, and wont take any wear and tear to the packaging.

@ vektorprime: a nostalgia trip.... man! thats the whole reason i buy toys, it makes me feel like when i was a kid again, except now i'm really anal and dont open things. lol

thanks everybody for taking the time to post

janda :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Personally I think AFA grading is bizarre. Putting a toy in an acrylic box so it's never played with is like owning a car you never intend to drive. It takes something from fulfilling its intended function to being a commodity.

I completely agree with this. Toys are meant to be played with... buying a toy and not playing with it makes about as much sense to me as buying a book and never reading it, or buying a car and never driving it.


So your saying car museums are bad too? I know several people who have cars they only take out once or twice a year then cover it back up in the garage! They pay registration and insurance on them too.
Yeah I find that bizarre too personally. But I know it happens. My dad recently purchased a 20 year old Lexus Soarer that's almost never been driven. The original owner imported it from Japan and just kept it in his garage for 2 decades. Now from my dad's POV it's great because he's getting what he considers a classic sports car in near mint condition... but if that were my car, there's no way I'd keep it sitting in my garage for that long. I'd definitely drive it.


i'm not really the sort of collector that opens up his stuff though, so sealing something doesn't really bother me. i do however, like to have things on display....but 99% of the time, its displayed as i bought it....unopened.
To me - and this is just my own subjective opinion - that makes it look more like a collection of stock rather than a "toy collection."

Also... playing with toys is just a lot of fun! Keeping my toys sealed would just be... dull. What do you do with them? Just look at them? :eek:


it's funny though......my wife and i have this constant debate going about opening or not opening toys. she's rather vocal about the fact "toys are meant to be played with" while i'll always retort with "its art as it is.....dont touch it" opposites attract i guess.
I completely agree with your wife. They are toys, for which their primary function is to be played with. A large part of the appeal of Transformer toys to me is marvelling at the engineering by transforming it from robot to alt mode(s) and back... then of course, doing all the voices and sound effects and making stories and totally losing myself in the fantasy as I play with them. :)

My favourite Einstein quote has always been, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ;)


a nostalgia trip.... man! thats the whole reason i buy toys, it makes me feel like when i was a kid again, except now i'm really anal and dont open things. lol
Just my opinion, but I personally wouldn't start building a collection of toys that I didn't play with as a child. The only reason I have a G1 collection was because I started collecting in 1984 and most of my collection was obtained during the 1980s and 90s.

When I pick up one of my G1 toys, I have a lot of childhood memories associated with that toy. For example, I won G1 Battletrap as a competition prize - and I remember the morning when the postman arrived to give the toy to me, I was buzzing with excitement I just had to bring the toy to school where I secretly (i.e. didn't let the teachers see me) played with it during morning assembly. Now if I got another Battletrap, say in better condition than mine - it would hold NONE of those memories and thus wouldn't have special meaning for me. A few years ago I was burgled and my G1 Optimus Prime (1984), Megatron, Galvatron and Ultra Magnus were stolen (because they were loose in box, my far more valuable convention and eHobby exclusives which were loose were untouched). Now shortly after the burglary someone kindly gave me another Optimus Prime for free. While I'm very grateful to have this toy, it does NOT hold any of my childhood memories... so I really can't love this toy that way I love my other G1s. :(

And that's kinda like the relationship I have with my G1 collection... similar to Andy in Toy Story with his toys... they're my childhood "buddies", and it's only because they are the toys I grew up with.

Let me put it this way, I liked watching Centurions as a kid, and I played with a few other children's Centurions toys and liked them, but I never owned any as a child. Thus I would personally never start collecting Centurions for the sake of regaining nostalgia, because I'd look at these toys and while they might remind me of my childhood, the toys themselves don't hold my childhood memories. I'd happily look at someone else's Centurion toy -- I enjoyed looking at a lot of 80s retro stuff at the Powerhouse Museum's "The 80s Are Back" exhibit, but none of those particular items hold memories for me.

To infinity... http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/G1%20toyplay/th_g1_1986.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/G1%20toyplay/th_g1_1988.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/G1%20toyplay/th_g1_1989.jpg ...and beyond!

------------------------------

Anyway, if you really want to preserve your sealed toys (though if I were you I'd totally bust them open! :D), is it really worth paying AFA to put them in a case? Couldn't you just get a display unit and just put them there for display like a museum? The Powerhouse Museum has a MISB 1984 Optimus Prime on display and it's just in a regular museum display case - there's no plastic case around it as well. If you have display units then I'm not sure what the point of having them sealed in an additional plastic case would do. And do you need to pay someone else to tell you what "condition" a toy is in? Just inspect the box for yourself - if you find it satisfactory, then get it and display it, if not then don't. <shrug>

[Gutsman Heavy]

Goki raises a good point, why pay for grading? Is their opinion worth more than your own?

[kup]

Goki raises a good point, why pay for grading? Is their opinion worth more than your own?

Yeah, how are they qualified to rate a toy? They have already made several mistakes grading KOs when several 'non expert' fans can work it out by doing some small research online.

I have no problem with the concept of grading toys for storage so that they can be kept safe for future generations to enjoy but this AFA grading seems more like a fad or a really ill thought out way of trying to artificially increase the financial worth of a toy.

[Vector Prime]

AFA grading seems more like a fad or a really ill thought out way of trying to artificially increase the financial worth of a toy.

But of course it's to increase the financial worth of a toy... it was only a matter of time before the fad caught on.

TFs are collectibles and like any collectible, there are people out there who not only value the item for what it is (in this case, a toy) but also hold the monetary value of it quite highly too.

Grading is prevalent in almost all forms of collecting - sports cards, memorabilia, you name it.

So why shouldn't toys be graded? They're just as collectible as anything else.

It's just different people have different reasons as to why they collect - some accumulate the toys to play with them, whereas some may collect them sealed for nostalgic value (and being AFA graded is a bonus as it then also increases the financial value)

[loophole]

I completely agree with this. Toys are meant to be played with... buying a toy and not playing with it makes about as much sense to me as buying a book and never reading it, or buying a car and never driving it.


Yeah I find that bizarre too personally. But I know it happens. My dad recently purchased a 20 year old Lexus Soarer that's almost never been driven. The original owner imported it from Japan and just kept it in his garage for 2 decades. Now from my dad's POV it's great because he's getting what he considers a classic sports car in near mint condition... but if that were my car, there's no way I'd keep it sitting in my garage for that long. I'd definitely drive it.

yeah but if the previous owner had driven it around do you think your dad still would have bought he may of bought the car because it hadnt been used and abused by someone else, same goes with toys.

Some people will pay a premium because a toy will be sealed and then they can be the first ones to touch it and play with it like Gutsman and all of his BW figures.

[Vector Prime]

Some people will pay a premium because a toy will be sealed and then they can be the first ones to touch it and play with it

+1 :D

[UltraMarginal]

yeah but if the previous owner had driven it around do you think your dad still would have bought he may of bought the car because it hadnt been used and abused by someone else, same goes with toys.

Some people will pay a premium because a toy will be sealed and then they can be the first ones to touch it and play with it like Gutsman and all of his BW figures.

True but I bet the car didn't cost 100 time more than it's original retail value. I too am of the view that there is no point owning a toy unless you intend to play with it. in the case of transformers it's the transformation that makes it for me. coming to grips with the engineering of the figure.

Personally, I started collecting in Christmas of 83 I think, there were a lot of figures I missed out on living in a small town. I now occasionally search out an old G1 figure to add to my collection, partially for completeness but also to see how the original toy was designed and built. I love comparing things like g1 Mirage with Universe Mirage. process, form and material.

When I do go for an old figure though I look for something in good condition, tight joints, not much chrome wear etc. I can't justify spending too much on it, I don't have the income. I'd much rather buy 10-20 good figures than one perfect figure.

The graded stuff, while attractive, is very over valued in my opinion. say I buy a AFA 9 figure. I spend 2 grand. I'm then nuts to open it, it goes from being worth $2000 to a few select people to being worth $150 to a lot of people. I can admire it in the box but then I'm not even getting half the original shelf prices value for the figure as I don't get to transform it and I don't see it in it's second mode.

so I keep it, wrapped up in it's box, it looks nice. but in the long run it's an investment, I'm hoping that in another 5, 10 or 20 years it is going to have appreciated at a rate faster than inflation and that someone out there feels the same way about it that I do.

The only other reason for something graded like that is to preserve, in a museum like state, just like the prime at the powerhouse, for others to see, but then you want one MIB, one in robot mode and one in vehicle mode and a couple in various stages of transformation. This is preservation for the future.

I suppose you could say I'm selfish, I am playing with my transformers now, if my kids (assuming I am blessed with them) are good, one day they will also get the opportunity to play with them.:eek:maybe:D

Of course if you are planning on sealing and keeping your figures in mint condition, good luck to you, I hope you find as much enjoyment from them as I do mine. I recently picked up a couple statues, and though I was skeptical as to how much I would like them, they are super sweet.


:eek::eek: phew, got a little carried away there.

[Deonasis]

The idea of toy protection and preservation is good. Even most collectors who open their Tfs try to keep them in good condition. AFA cases are a great idea.

I think the scores are mostly a wank or seen as an investment.

[SharkyMcShark]

The cases are nice if that's your thing.

The ratings are gash.

[janda the red]

cheers all, you guys have given me alot of food for thought....

@ gok p: stock.......lol, well i did work in a toy store! i suppose i do just look at my toys....but to me, they are this perfect little packaged piece of art.
on the extremely rare occasion i do really want to open something....i'd buy a 2nd copy of it ( within reason of course! i'm far from made of money )
my fave toys are my old G1's too... they hold the most sentimental value by far, but all G1's take me back to a time when i dreamed of owning them.

@ ultra m: i hear what your saying on the investment side of things... honestly i think if your planning on trying to make money, you'd be better off putting your money in a term deposit rather than playing the collectible stock market.
that being said though....i'd like to think my toys will appreciate, but if they dont.....i get a heck of alot of enjoyment from collecting them anyways.

gotta admit i'm still 50 / 50 about AFA....

being new to this... i'm rather worried about being duped, and while AFA aren't perfect.....it'd relieve a little bit of my worry.

anyways....

really grateful for all the different points of view

thanks everyone

janda :)

[Skullcruncher]

Goki raises a good point, why pay for grading? Is their opinion worth more than your own?

Well its more for the item to be cased and protected. If it gets a good grade then so be it. Theres really not much difference between say 75 and 80 and 85 to 90. To me if I look at an something graded 8 out of 10 and it looks 8.5 then that is my opinion.


Yeah, how are they qualified to rate a toy? They have already made several mistakes grading KOs when several 'non expert' fans can work it out by doing some small research online.


I would say alot more qualified than the average seller and some people on this board. They photograh everything possible of the item and compare in the photos, history etc against their standards and then against the others for consistenancy. As I said yes they have made mistakes but I can guarantee many people have G1 'classics', accessories that are not original but they do belive so until pointed out. When buying transformers do you take into consideration the grade someone gives it in the auction? Its the same everywhere down to your own opinion, sometimes people agree somethings they dont.


True but I bet the car didn't cost 100 time more than it's original retail value. I too am of the view that there is no point owning a toy unless you intend to play with it. in the case of transformers it's the transformation that makes it for me. coming to grips with the engineering of the figure.


But how old is the car? Is it meant to be treated the same way as a toy? The best comparision I could think of would be stamp collectors. Stamps can be bought at a post shop nice and new or for older ones carefully removed off enevelopes 30+ years old. Once the person removes the stamp what should they do? Keep it in a drawer or place in it an album?

To find a sealed toy 20+ years after it is produced is quite surprising really. I bashed the hell out of my toys when I was younger and now if I can buy the same toy in its original packaing then it brings alot of sentimental value to it. I know I dont want to see my old grapple or dirge sitting on a shelf with no paint left, one arm and no stickers!

Right, back to work! :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Personally, I started collecting in Christmas of 83 I think, there were a lot of figures I missed out on living in a small town. I now occasionally search out an old G1 figure to add to my collection, partially for completeness but also to see how the original toy was designed and built. I love comparing things like g1 Mirage with Universe Mirage. process, form and material.
It was probably Christmas of 84, as that was the year that Transformers came out. 1983 was still Microman and Diaclone if you were living in Japan.

1983 I was still playing with Machine Men... 1984, I saw the light. ;)


so I keep it, wrapped up in it's box, it looks nice. but in the long run it's an investment, I'm hoping that in another 5, 10 or 20 years it is going to have appreciated at a rate faster than inflation and that someone out there feels the same way about it that I do.
Toys appreciate quite poorly as a form of investment really, so I don't think investment is a good reason to collect. If you want to invest your money, you're much better off investing in property or in stock market shares/blue chips etc.


The only other reason for something graded like that is to preserve, in a museum like state, just like the prime at the powerhouse, for others to see, but then you want one MIB, one in robot mode and one in vehicle mode and a couple in various stages of transformation. This is preservation for the future.
In other words, you'd be a toy curator.


I suppose you could say I'm selfish, I am playing with my transformers now, if my kids (assuming I am blessed with them) are good, one day they will also get the opportunity to play with them.:eek:maybe:D
Why not? You spent good money on your Transformers, why not play with them? It's no more selfish than buying a car and driving it or buying stamps and using them to post things.


I recently picked up a couple statues, and though I was skeptical as to how much I would like them, they are super sweet.
*yawn* The idea of collecting statues just seems so dull to me. What would you do with them? I have 2 Transformers busts - one I bought cos I never had one before. Yeah, decided not to buy anymore. The second one is an SDCC exclusive that was a free gift (hence I've stuck to my policy of not buying any more, but I'll always happily accept freebies! :D).


I would say alot more qualified than the average seller and some people on this board.
Really? If I picked up a sealed toy, I think I can judge for myself whether or not the toy is of satisfactory quality/condition. I have a few sealed toys (all doubles ;)) and I can see if there are any imperfections in the bubbles, windows, cards, boxes etc. for myself. I don't necessarily assign a "grade" to it -- grading is really subjective anyway. But I think everyone would be able to assign a 'satisfactory' or 'unsatisfactory' rating to a sealed toy.


They photograh everything possible of the item and compare in the photos, history etc against their standards and then against the others for consistenancy. As I said yes they have made mistakes but I can guarantee many people have G1 'classics', accessories that are not original but they do belive so until pointed out. When buying transformers do you take into consideration the grade someone gives it in the auction? Its the same everywhere down to your own opinion, sometimes people agree somethings they dont.
...and this is why it's better to buy toys from shops. :) Most of my G1s came from local shops. Damn I still can't believe they've closed Roselands Uncle Petes Toys... so many of my G1 Transformers came from that store. :/


But how old is the car? Is it meant to be treated the same way as a toy? The best comparision I could think of would be stamp collectors. Stamps can be bought at a post shop nice and new or for older ones carefully removed off enevelopes 30+ years old. Once the person removes the stamp what should they do? Keep it in a drawer or place in it an album?
You're right - a car is always a depreciating investment. Toys... are less predictable. Some of them appreciate and some of the depreciate (e.g. I doubt I could get away with selling a 1999 Mega Transformers Animorphs toy at its original retail price ;)). But as I mentioned before, even with toys that appreciate, in general most of them have relatively poor rates of appreciation compared to other forms of investment. And also, this mentality seems to view toys more as commodities rather than... well, toys! (IMHO)


To find a sealed toy 20+ years after it is produced is quite surprising really. I bashed the hell out of my toys when I was younger and now if I can buy the same toy in its original packaing then it brings alot of sentimental value to it. I know I dont want to see my old grapple or dirge sitting on a shelf with no paint left, one arm and no stickers!
See, even as a kid I always took great pride and care in my toys and was really careful to try and not to break or damage them. As a result most of my childhood G1 Transformers are in pretty good condition till this day. And for some of those that are broken, they were actually broken by other kids!!! Gah!! I used to HATE letting other kids play with my toys, but of course, mum would be like, "You have to share" -- and sharing = broken toys. And if ever another kid broke my toy, I would demand that they replace it, but my mum would dismiss it and tell that kid's parent that "It's okay" assuming that I'd get over it. DOES IT LOOK LIKE I'VE GOTTEN OVER IT?!?!? <insane.panting>

*ahem* Fortunately thanks to my disdain for sharing toys, only a minority of my G1s were ever broken in the hands of other kids. I've never quite understood why some kids treat their toys with such reckless abandon... I mean, these are toys that we LOVE... why trash them?? I dunno... my daughter trashes a lot of her toys now (although she's just 1 and a half, but yeah, I cringe sometimes at the way she treats her toys - thankfully she treats my Transformers with the utmost respect (not that I've ever had to teach her this, she just has a natural instinct not to trash daddy's toys <shrug>)).

[Gutsman Heavy]

If I ever bought an AFA'd fig, I'd totally open it. Mmmm minty fresh.

[canofwhoopass_87]

IMO I think it's pretty awesome to have at least one AFA figure (A boxed and sealed one, not a crappy loose graded one..preferably one with sentimental value).

I can understand why some of you guys are pretty steadfast in your belief that "toys are meant to be opened", but personally I think after so many years, older lines such as G1 and G2 fall into the "collectables" category, not "toys". I reckon this is the general consensus amongst many AFA collectors and the driving factor which underlines their expensive hobby.

I agree that treating AFA collecting as an investment is a poor idea compared to other alternatives, but I don't think putting down people that solely collect AFA is justifiable. We all collect in our own way; all of which is neither right or wrong.

I'm sure AFA hoarders out there feel that same sense of achievement and childhood nostalgia just like any other collector when they stare at their displays.

So, for what it's worth - I think at the end of the day it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to go loose or graded. If you're gona go down the graded path you need to have bottomless pockets though. Should prob keep that in mind. Ha!

[Vector Prime]

IMO I think it's pretty awesome to have at least one AFA figure (A boxed and sealed one, not a crappy loose graded one..preferably one with sentimental value).

I can understand why some of you guys are pretty steadfast in your belief that "toys are meant to be opened", but personally I think after so many years, older lines such as G1 and G2 fall into the "collectables" category, not "toys". I reckon this is the general consensus amongst many AFA collectors and the driving factor which underlines their expensive hobby.

Well said :)

[GoktimusPrime]

I can understand why some of you guys are pretty steadfast in your belief that "toys are meant to be opened", but personally I think after so many years, older lines such as G1 and G2 fall into the "collectables" category, not "toys". I reckon this is the general consensus amongst many AFA collectors and the driving factor which underlines their expensive hobby.
It's more expensive to collect G1 now, but it wasn't so expensive during the 1980s and 90s if you bought the toys from local stores. I completed Monstructor by collecting all the Monster Pretenders from Kmart using my pocket money. There's a MOSC G1 Icepick on eBay going for US$380! :o So like you said, you'd better be rich if you wanna collect G1 nowadays! I don't have that kind of disposable income to throw around, so I personally wouldn't start collecting G1 in this day and age. Collecting current Transformers from local stores is bloody expensive enough as it is... I'd go bankrupt if I tried to actively collect vintage toys on top of that! :eek:

But hey, for those of you who can afford it... go nuts. :)


I agree that treating AFA collecting as an investment is a poor idea compared to other alternatives, but I don't think putting down people that solely collect AFA is justifiable. We all collect in our own way; all of which is neither right or wrong.
I don't think anyone has been put down in this thread. Saying, "I personally wouldn't do that" isn't the same as insulting someone like, "You're a 'tard monkey for doing that!" ;)


I'm sure AFA hoarders out there feel that same sense of achievement and childhood nostalgia just like any other collector when they stare at their displays.
Yeah, I don't just stare at my displays.. the main reason why I started displaying my toys in the first place as a child was to make them more accessible to play with and also to protect them from damage if I'd just thrown them into a toy box with all my other toys (cos ya know, when you rummage through all those toys looking for the one you want to play with, toys can get scratched and damaged -- especially G1 Transformers). But I must admit that I do find the visual aesthetic pleasing too, but that's more of a secondary motivation for me to display my toys - the primary reason is for accessibility for when I wanna play with my toys. :)


So, for what it's worth - I think at the end of the day it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to go loose or graded
Of course. It's you're money and your toys and you can do whatever you want with them -- keep them sealed, keep them open, play with them, kitbash them, worship them as idols etc. -- whatever makes you happy. :) :cool:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/collector%20types/th_collectortype_curator.jpg The Curator

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/collector%20types/th_collectortype_fiddler.jpg The Fiddler

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/collector%20types/th_collectortype_artisan.jpg The Artisan

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/collector%20types/th_collectortype_player.jpg The Player

[SofaMan]

Personally I think AFA grading is bizarre. Putting a toy in an acrylic box so it's never played with is like owning a car you never intend to drive. It takes something from fulfilling its intended function to being a commodity.

+1

[janda the red]

@whoopass: unfortunatly i dont have bottomless pockets.....lol, wish i did :p
i'd love to be able to go banana's, but more thinking of just buying a couple of bits n pieces that i had owned as a kid.

gok commented on how expensive just buying current stuff is..... man, aint that the truth!

cheers for the replies everyone

janda :)

[bowspearer]

Personally I think AFA grading is bizarre. Putting a toy in an acrylic box so it's never played with is like owning a car you never intend to drive. It takes something from fulfilling its intended function to being a commodity.

Do you realise you just effectively argued against the existence of museums in general there (as every single artefact in a museum was originally a commodity of some kind, even if it was just a brick)?

Now toys are a commodity, but what happens 100 years from now, 200 years from now or further on down the track? What about those kids then?

That's the question which drives collectors such as myself. I collect MISB and MIB as well as loose for one reason- to see them go to a museum and be so tied up in legal red tape that they can never be sold, so that ideally 300+ years from now, some kid can go to a museum and see some of the pieces which sparked the start of the toy cartoon phenomenon, which will no doubt still be at the core of toy marketting campaigns for children in some form or another. For me, it's about giving those generations of kids the same enjoyment I had as a kid, and still have to this day.

[Sky Shadow]

Do you realise you just effectively argued against the existence of museums in general there (as every single artefact in a museum was originally a commodity of some kind, even if it was just a brick)?

I didn't. I didn't even argue against the existence of crap museums. There are two main types of things in museums. The first is objects which are supposed to be looked at, such as paintings and sculptures. Those things are fulfilling their function by being looked at. The second is historic items that once fulfilled a function. Do you really think humans spent the past fifty thousand years going... oh, we shouldn't use that axe to chop up that animal - let's keep them both locked up in glass boxes just in case someone someday decides to put them in a museum?

[Prowl]

If MISB & AFA gradings float your boat then go for it I say. I "devalue" every toy I get by opening it & having fun with it.

Personally if I was really minted I would buy up many high graded AFA toys & open them up ripping the boxes open with childish glee with no regard for what I was doing. I would put it all up on youtube & relish in the comments I would receive.

Yeah I sound like a complete bastard alright but I would feel like one of those war heroes who saves the prisoners & liberates them from their caged oppression by AFA tyranny.

[bowspearer]

I didn't. I didn't even argue against the existence of crap museums. There are two main types of things in museums. The first is objects which are supposed to be looked at, such as paintings and sculptures. Those things are fulfilling their function by being looked at. The second is historic items that once fulfilled a function. Do you really think humans spent the past fifty thousand years going... oh, we shouldn't use that axe to chop up that animal - let's keep them both locked up in glass boxes just in case someone someday decides to put them in a museum?

Not the sort of a debate you want ot get into with a double history major undergrad ;).

Here's the thing though. We look at apintings now as being historical works of art, but at the time, let's be honest, they had all the "posterity" value of a lithograph poster at the time when they were done generally.

Likewise, sculptures in private collections were nothing more than pretty decorations.

So who decided they had value? The answer is that people down the track did, when they became glimpses into a past society and civilisation.

The problem with your argument is that you're looking from the present forward as opposed to the future back, and your entire argument here falls apart as a result.

At the time of the Romans and Greeks, ancient writings were just seen as a way for the upper classes to be educated for example. Yet because there were no recorded complete works kept, or in the case of the razing of the library of Alexandria, willful destruction of them, we're completely in the dark about massive chunks of that period of history, with numerous secondary sources where the primary sources they were quoting simply do not exist anymore, or if they do, we have yet to find them.

The thing is that the reason why historians want those writings, is so they can find out how people lived- they care about every little line on every little piece of ceramics they find (especially with amphora) because it establishes trade routes, to quote just one example. I should poijnt out that that's the equivalent of someone 2000 years from now being interested in shipping containers.

Yet noone would think twice about preserving them today, thinking along the very lines you do. Yet that very thinking leads to the very gaps in knowledge that an historian hits because of a lack of literature or artefacts.

Why wouldn't an historian 2000 years from now be interested in what toys children played with, along with every other aspect of 20th/21st century history.

Right now, sure, these are just children's playthings, but down the track, several hundreds of years from now they'll be glimpses into a civilisation.

As someone who is an historian, whose calling it is to explore history; why wouldn't I want to extend the same courtesy to some historian, hundreds and maybe even thousands of years down the track, that most historians would love someone from hundreds if not thousands of years in the past, to extend to them.

Your entire point about "crap museums" is as flawed as you can get. What those "axes" and the like do is show how people lived back then.

If you're going to be so against the notion of archiving for posterity, then you might as well oppose the perserving of artwork and the writing of history and archiving of records and documents- after all, it all takes place for the purpose of the preservation of history.

[Prowl]

As someone who is an historian, whose calling it is to explore history; why wouldn't I want to extend the same courtesy to some historian, hundreds and maybe even thousands of years down the track, that most historians would love someone from hundreds if not thousands of years in the past, to extend to them.

Are you a qualified historian? What a cool job I always wanted to be one myself. My areas of interest (well a little more than interest I suppose) are the Holocaust & Eastern front.

[bowspearer]

Are you a qualified historian? What a cool job I always wanted to be one myself. My areas of interest (well a little more than interest I suppose) are the Holocaust & Eastern front.

History undergrad but on track to do post grad and ideally a dioctorate. Doing a major in classics (primarily Roman and Hellenic) and a major in modern which is primarily 20th Century.

The more serious areas of interest for me include the Holocaust as well (specifically the Nazi Euthanasia Programme), the rise of neo-fascism in the Western World (and due to board rules, I will not be elaborating on that further :p), the resurgence in pro-eugenic attitudes in the Western World post Nuremberg, and traditionalsim and gender movements and their impact on gender and social views towards gender.

The one fun interest in amongst the lot is the phenomenon of toy cartoon marketting in the 80s (primarily because of the cultural impact that mixing marketting and mythology had and continues to have to this day, along with the long term implications that has for pop-culture and society in general (but I suspect the moment I said I was a history undergrad that interest was taken as a given heh).

[robwin1974]

I was never a big fan of AFA or MIB/MISB but over time I have acquired a few. I dont think I could ever have a huge AFA collection because of space and cost but I like having a few of my favourite models. Simply, I do like looking them as a display - in my view it gives them a more collectible feel. But then again, for most of my AFA transformers, I have doubles to play with.

[Sky Shadow]

Not the sort of a debate you want ot get into with a double history major undergrad ;).

Why? That makes you less qualified than me.


Yet noone would think twice about preserving them today, thinking along the very lines you do. Yet that very thinking leads to the very gaps in knowledge that an historian hits because of a lack of literature or artefacts.

Why wouldn't an historian 2000 years from now be interested in what toys children played with, along with every other aspect of 20th/21st century history.

So for some reason there are still historians and other humans in 2000 years, and yet despite our world's ridiculous amount of information and material possessions, the only evidence left of eighties toys is ones left in acrylic boxes?


If you're going to be so against the notion of archiving for posterity, then you might as well oppose the perserving of artwork and the writing of history and archiving of records and documents- after all, it all takes place for the purpose of the preservation of history.

No. Artworks are meant to be looked at. Records and documents are meant to be read. Toys are meant to be played with.

[bowspearer]

Why? That makes you less qualified than me.

What I'm saying is that your mindset here is flawed for this kind of debate.


So for some reason there are still historians and other humans in 2000 years, and yet despite our world's ridiculous amount of information and material possessions, the only evidence left of eighties toys is ones left in acrylic boxes?

A majorly strawman argument here. For starters the Minoans were incredibly advanced. Then you have the pyramids, where if they weren't built by aliens then there was an advanced civilisation there, and if they were built by them, you still have an advanced civilisation there.

Yet practically everything from those civilisations is gone. Then you have the steam engine- first built by Archemedes. Gone. It took us 1700 years to rediscover it. We still don't know how the Romans were simultaneously able to blow 2 layered glass vessels- for now that information has been lost.

You talk about all the info we have- if we get hit with enough electro magnetic radiation in one hit- something like a massive coronal mass ejection, like the one which hit us in 1850, then all that information can be kissed goodbye.

Humanity has been "wiped out" multiple times in the past to varying degrees. Yet every single time we resiliently bounce back. Because humans are always curious, there will always be historians. When humans in the future get curious, then they will always want to find artefacts- the more complete and the better condition they are in, the better.

Sure there'll be evidence of toys in the future that aren't sealed up, but they're be a case of finding half an arm or a fist somewhere where historians are left puzzled as to what each individual bit is for, especially if they only find that bit.

A toy sealed in an Acrylic case though, has the best chance of being intact for them to study.


No. Artworks are meant to be looked at. Records and documents are meant to be read. Toys are meant to be played with.

In other words, we should avoid using items as evidence in court cases the moment they don't serve a function of being looked at in everyday life then. Considering that historical artifacts, or evidence, work the exact same way as evidence used in a court of law, that's exactly what you are saying.

[liegeprime]

Nah I dont think Id be a fan of AFA. Too pricy and I cant get to the toys when it's sealed like that:(, to play with. I do have some (only more recent versions) TFs MISC/B but they are doubles... more of actually a backup, coz the toys nowadays just don't have the sturdiness of toys from years ago. So i keep one more juuuust in case;). I dunno how much AFAing costs but Ive often heard its pretty expensive for just 1 small figure.

@ Janda. I know the feeling of enjoying your collection just by looking at it, as well as being able to play with it. The casings look good as it really accentuates displaying your toys in such nice cases, but if your going to invest, invest it on good display cases not necessarily the AFA types, coz really I think that's what your after in the long run anyways...how to keep and display your toys minty good looking for so many years (even way after your gone).
Prolly have a look at acrylic display cases on sale at online stores, invest in glass display shelves as well. Id think you'd get more bang for your buck for those investment and as well as more cases too.
It's like (just an example) 1 glass display case + 2-3 acrylic display cases = 1 AFA'd toy. Id go for the former ;) since as like you I dont have a lot of money to throw around so Id like to get MORE for my money.

[Sky Shadow]

A majorly strawman argument here.

A straw man argument is this:


Do you realise you just effectively argued against the existence of museums in general there (as every single artefact in a museum was originally a commodity of some kind, even if it was just a brick)?

and this:


The problem with your argument is that you're looking from the present forward as opposed to the future back, and your entire argument here falls apart as a result.

and this:


In other words, we should avoid using items as evidence in court cases the moment they don't serve a function of being looked at in everyday life then. Considering that historical artifacts, or evidence, work the exact same way as evidence used in a court of law, that's exactly what you are saying.

You, on the other hand, are likening unique historical paintings to


a lithograph poster

Unlike La Gioconda or Vase with Fifteen Sunflowers or No. 5, 1948, Transformers and other 80s toys - like lithographic posters - are mass-produced items that exist in such numbers that there will always be ridiculous quantities of them, not unique items that need to be preserved.

[janda the red]

Nah I dont think Id be a fan of AFA. Too pricy and I cant get to the toys when it's sealed like that:(, to play with. I do have some (only more recent versions) TFs MISC/B but they are doubles... more of actually a backup, coz the toys nowadays just don't have the sturdiness of toys from years ago. So i keep one more juuuust in case;). I dunno how much AFAing costs but Ive often heard its pretty expensive for just 1 small figure.

@ Janda. I know the feeling of enjoying your collection just by looking at it, as well as being able to play with it. The casings look good as it really accentuates displaying your toys in such nice cases, but if your going to invest, invest it on good display cases not necessarily the AFA types, coz really I think that's what your after in the long run anyways...how to keep and display your toys minty good looking for so many years (even way after your gone).
Prolly have a look at acrylic display cases on sale at online stores, invest in glass display shelves as well. Id think you'd get more bang for your buck for those investment and as well as more cases too.
It's like (just an example) 1 glass display case + 2-3 acrylic display cases = 1 AFA'd toy. Id go for the former ;) since as like you I dont have a lot of money to throw around so Id like to get MORE for my money.

hey leige...

it's funny, but after hanging around here for 6 months.... i agree with ya, the money could be better spent! however if i won lotto though... that'd be another story.

so far all the G1 stuff i've gotten hasn't been afa'd, but i am looking at grabbing a few of their cases to protect my precious lil babies.

janda :)

[bowspearer]

You, on the other hand, are likening unique historical paintings to

I take back my being nice about this, you ARE completely unqualified on this topic and it shows itself in spades as you continue to show a complete inability to grasp the way history and archeology work if you think that those studying ancient societies ONLY care about unique paintings and works of art. You're like someone with no building qualifictions trying to argue with a builder that the foundations to a building or supporting walls aren't needed on a house and it shows a mile off.


Unlike La Gioconda or Vase with Fifteen Sunflowers or No. 5, 1948, Transformers and other 80s toys - like lithographic posters - are mass-produced items that exist in such numbers that there will always be ridiculous quantities of them, not unique items that need to be preserved.

Right so according to you, highly advanced civilisations in the past NEVER had mass produced items that were used daily- after all if they did according to your argument, we'd have easy access to them. Yet we don't (including numerous ancient works like the books of Livy which were also fairly widely read by the upper class), funny about that.

[Demonac]

Right so according to you, highly advanced civilisations in the past NEVER had mass produced items that were used daily- after all if they did according to your argument, we'd have easy access to them. Yet we don't (including numerous ancient works like the books of Livy which were also fairly widely read by the upper class), funny about that.

I've watched Time Team in the past, so I guess I'm kinda qualified to add my 2c worth.
Aren't the items dug up from ancient times nearly always everyday items?
Coins, cutlery, pottery? I can understand why books wouldn't survive the test of time, as they decompose fairly quickly.

[1orion2many]

Please keep this topic on track and play nice, Everyone is qualified to give their own opinion, just because you dislike what is said and have a differing opinion doesn't make it wrong. This is directed at all the Protagonists on this thread.

[1orion2many]

I have no appreciation of sealed items myself with AFA graded sealed boxes, In general I like to take my TF's out and display them. Seems like a complete waste of time having a Transformer that you don't get to transform.;):)

[Sky Shadow]

I take back my being nice about this, you ARE completely unqualified on this topic and it shows itself in spades as you continue to show a complete inability to grasp the way history and archeology work if you think that those studying ancient societies ONLY care about unique paintings and works of art. You're like someone with no building qualifictions trying to argue with a builder that the foundations to a building or supporting walls aren't needed on a house and it shows a mile off.

Or, to remove this new straw man argument, in this case, I'm literally someone who's had tertiary History qualifications for over a decade, post graduate History qualifications since 2002, who has subsequently been employed in the field of History as a result, and is arguing with someone who still has no qualifications, an imaginary post graduate qualification and imaginary doctorate.

None of which is relevant to the fact that it is impossible to be unqualified to have the opinion that AFA grading is daft.

[liegeprime]

btw is the AFA case airtight? I haven't really seen one in person so just curious.

[kup]

btw is the AFA case airtight? I haven't really seen one in person so just curious.

I don't think it is but having it not being vacuum sealed defeats this whole 'historical preservation' argument and makes the box just an artificially expensive gimmick.

[jazzcomp]

too pricey for me. A MOSC or boxed toy is pretty much the same to me as an AFA graded one. - just for me :)

[SkyWarp91]

We have to start somewhere with grading the quality of our toys/packaging, and I guess the AFA exists as so that they can make it an 'official' procedure.

Though I'm not fussed with MISB/MOSC toys myself, I can understand how annoyed buyers would be if they bought a damaged box from a seller claiming MISB. With an AFA-graded item, the seller would be more confident in buying the product (if they were willing to fork out the extra $$$) and knowing that it would come in graded-condition (if done right of course) based on the reputation of the AFA.

[bowspearer]

Or, to remove this new straw man argument, in this case, I'm literally someone who's had tertiary History qualifications for over a decade, post graduate History qualifications since 2002, who has subsequently been employed in the field of History as a result, and is arguing with someone who still has no qualifications, an imaginary post graduate qualification and imaginary doctorate.

None of which is relevant to the fact that it is impossible to be unqualified to have the opinion that AFA grading is daft.

Then presuming your major and post grad studies are in ancient history as opposed to modern history you should be very aware of why ancient rubbish dumps are an historian's best friend, and it's not because they might contain priceless works of art- something even an undergrad talking to a lecturer for 5 mins is aware of.

Furthermore the sidetracked argument was about archiving toys instead of playing with them, which ties right back into the AFA argument. The gradings themselves are on the verge of being less trustworthy, but the acrylic cases make a huge difference in preservation. Yes they're not sealed to prevent "sweating" (the gap is more like a lack of a weld- it's still flush) but keeping them in an airtight container in turn is a way around that. But about the only thing that could fit through the gap is bacteria and maybe dust mites.

That said if there was a non-AFA option locally to do the same thing for less, I'd take it in a heartbeat with how much of a killer the shipping back and forth is.

[Skullcruncher]

so far all the G1 stuff i've gotten hasn't been afa'd, but i am looking at grabbing a few of their cases to protect my precious lil babies.

janda :)

Keep an eye on my sales thread :)


I have no appreciation of sealed items myself with AFA graded sealed boxes, In general I like to take my TF's out and display them. Seems like a complete waste of time having a Transformer that you don't get to transform.;):)

Action Masters? hehe do decoys count as transformers? :D


I don't think it is but having it not being vacuum sealed defeats this whole 'historical preservation' argument and makes the box just an artificially expensive gimmick.

Anything can be regarded as an expensive gimmick, to me an ipad is an expensive gimmick! They are not going to last I tell ya!



That said if there was a non-AFA option locally to do the same thing for less, I'd take it in a heartbeat with how much of a killer the shipping back and forth is.

I have sent maybe 30+ figures for grading to AFA in the US - it is alot cheaper to find a nice MISB item and get it graded than pay the buy now prices on ebay. :cool:

[kup]

Anything can be regarded as an expensive gimmick, to me an ipad is an expensive gimmick! They are not going to last I tell ya!



lol that is EXACTLY how I feel about the Ipad :D

[bowspearer]

lol that is EXACTLY how I feel about the Ipad :D

One of these days Apple are going to be brutally honest and release the I-cashcowthatwemakepeoplepickuptofeellikethey'retren dywhenit'sjustrebranded5yearoldtechnology :p

[canofwhoopass_87]

Or, to remove this new straw man argument, in this case, I'm literally someone who's had tertiary History qualifications for over a decade, post graduate History qualifications since 2002, who has subsequently been employed in the field of History as a result, and is arguing with someone who still has no qualifications, an imaginary post graduate qualification and imaginary doctorate.

None of which is relevant to the fact that it is impossible to be unqualified to have the opinion that AFA grading is daft.

...