Im more impressed at the fact that we have 3 similar looking Primes being offered.
If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that TT were leaking out or auctioning off a few files here and there.
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Im more impressed at the fact that we have 3 similar looking Primes being offered.
If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that TT were leaking out or auctioning off a few files here and there.
i got my MS version a few days ago and its quite a nice figure. i have the TE one on pre-order as well.
that said, i am also looking forward to the v3 Takara MP, however there is no way in hell I am paying that insane price. i will either wait for Hasbro to release it in the west at hopefully a lower price, if they dont eventually lower the price to something reasonable i will skip it.
as nice as this V3 is , that price is ridiculous
Not nearly as ridiculous as the Wal Mart G1 Optimus Prime reissue that's just the cab robot for US$50 (especially considering that Encore Convoy sold for nearly the same price with everything).Quote:
Originally Posted by CoRDS
As I've said before, each time an MP toy does a tech level jump, the RRP tends to roughly double. MP10 was about twice the price of MP01 and MP44 is about twice the price of MP10. MP Sunstreaker was about twice the price of MP Lambor, and MP36 was about twice the price of MP05. Obviously if a toy is going to do more then it will cost more.
Wal Mart G1 Optimus Prime has had no real improvements; the most significant appears to be the front axle being shortened to its original length (rather than having G1 Ultra Magnus' longer axle). They've gutted the toy by removing the trailer and Roller car, nullifying its play set value as a mobile HQ and yet have the audacity to charge US$50 for it.
That's a massive understatement. Usually there's a price difference to some extent, but this much of a jump is crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
The reason I made that post was because traditionally I've well and truly been in the anti-ko and anti-3p camp when it came to koing either figures or likenesses (as an aside, I do own a full Retro Future set as with the exception of using G1 combiner joints, they're original figures to my knowledge). Heck, a few years back I even tracked down KOtoys's server location and when I found it was in the US, called Hasbro US by phone and notified them.
Yet when I look at this much of a price jump, I'm having a very hard time justifying such a price difference.
If 3P can do this so cheaply, given there typically hasn't been such a massive price jump between 3P and Takara Tomy, why can't TT have MP-44 priced more around the $350USD mark?
I'm not.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowspearer
Official superior, 3P inferior. :D
Some people prefer the aesthetics of the 3P, the cheaper price is just the bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
Except you have a designer like this guy who has worked on both official and 3P products:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
http://designdecode.org/article.php?...ander-kubalsky
Do his designs suddenly lose or gain value depending upon his employer?
Actually, they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!
A design is assessed on its own merit, not who pays for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
Sure and Takara always beat 3P for me when there are products of the same characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!
In this instance, MP-44 is more cartoon accurate than the other two. Not saying they aren't cartoon accurate at all, but MP-44 does it better. It also has more features and accessories.
You already have your brand loyalty (or brand fanaticism), so TT will always beat 3P for you because of that regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
For others that don't have that brand loyalty or fanaticism, other criteria will be used to assess which design and which figure is right for them.
If you think MP-44 is "the best", then congratulations, give yourself a cookie! I'm happy that there is a market big enough to provide multiple choices, not just one.
Consider it done.Quote:
Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!
And while you're entitled to your opinion, I can genuinely see a shift on the horizon where your opinion becomes the minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
It was one thing when you had, say, a 10-20% difference in price, and you had sufficient QC issues where you you could argue that the price difference comes from materials quality and QC. Then you had an argument where you could easily justify ignoring the 3P design for an official TT design. Plus you have other things like brand loyalty for example. I'm not even going into the KO situation because they're absolute leeches whichever way you slice it.
But now we're not talking about a 10-20% difference in price, but a 69.93% (135/449) difference in price.
As for what you get on MP-44 that you don't get on MS-01, you get:
- Electronic Voice Clips
- Trailer
- Removable Combat Deck
- Rover (Roller)
- Spike
- Sparkplug
- Carly
- Jet pack
- Energy spikes (x2)
- Starscream head
- Starscream's shoulder parts
- Energon pump with hose and nozzle
With that price difference (issues like QC aside), you're essentially paying $314USD (or $435.52USD based on current real time exchange rates) for those extra features.
It should also be noted that the battle damaged windows MS-01 is said to include, may not just even out the battle damage feature, but actually be a point to MS-01.
Now even if you were to argue that materials differences and QC differences account for $100USD (or $138.72AUD) of that price hike, you're still talking about a $214USD (or $296.52 AUD) price difference for those features. Even then, comparing MS-01 at $234 USD for the sake of equivalency, to MP-44 at $449USD, you're still talking about a 47.88% (234/449) difference in price in other words, practically double the price.
Tha_Phantom, you're clearly a die hard Takara fan and hey, more power to you for being one - normally they have their finger on the pulse and they do right by their fans; heck, up until the shared global branding thing, I happily paid more for the Takara version of a figure and only bought Hasbro when there wasn't a Takara version. The problem is that being in the "die hard fan" category, you're in one of the two extremes and your position isn't where the moderate majority will be.
This massive gulf in pricing wont affect you personally, however it is going to affect the moderate mainstream. Many who aren't so die hard are going to go the third party, costing Takara tens of thousands, and possibly even hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales (1000 units of MS-01 sold for example, are $134,000USD in turnover for example), while those who have previously defended Takara are having an increasingly difficult time doing so. All of that means less of the moderate majority giving Takara their business, which makes the line less profitable.
If Takara were trying to differentiate themselves from 3P brands and take sales from 3P, this was honestly about the worst way they could have gone about it.
I am sure Takara are well aware of the elasticity of demand for its products, we have no idea. It's being strategic with its pricing, it obviously thinks it will maximize profit even if units for this and future figures are lower.
How about we wait until these figures are in people's hands before definitive statements are made?
Hey if you want to argue that MP-44 is overpriced, then sure I can accept that argument. I'm sure I heard my wallet shriek when I hit that preorder button. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by bowspearer
However, price aside, I do believe it is the best version of a Masterpiece Prime to date - at least if cartoon accuracy is your thing and clearly these other 2 3P Primes are going for that goal as well.
I never said MP-44 was good value for money, I never said it wasn't overpriced, but I will happily argue it is better than the competition.
In a long term brand health sense, I would suggest that the use of the word "strategic" by you is ironic, regardless of whether you intended it to be used in that manner. In fact I might even go so far as to suggest that its use in this context is an oxymoron (as in a contradiction in terms in and of itself - not to be confused with oxmoron for anyone reading this who might have done so).Quote:
Originally Posted by DaptoDog
The strategy of maximising profits on a smaller production run makes sense in the short term, but in the long term, it's a lousy strategy that skates dangerously close to financial suicide.
If Third Party offerings weren't around and HAsTak were the only game in town, then sure, you're talking about a monopoly and so monopoly based business strategies will have no long term effects on the health of the brand.
Unfortunately for HasTak, this isn't the case. Third Party offerings do exist and every single time someone buys a 3P offering over an official HasTak one, that's revenue lost, but more importantly, it's loss of brand loyalty.
It's now not even an open secret that it costs companies money to gain a customer and so that is lost money when they lose one, not including the extra money spent if they get them back.
Previously HasTak has balanced this out well - making the costs of figures higher than 3P, but keeping the price difference low enough that people internally justified it with things like QC issues and materials quality. In movie terms, they maintained a suspension of disbelief enough that they were able to sell their product at a higher price and maintain brand loyalty.
This price jump destroys that suspension of disbelief, harms brand loyalty within the customer and sends someone on the fence off to buy the 3P offering, where the 3P company then has a chance to retain them as a customer.
That's a terrible way for a business to do business, from any perspective which looks at the long term profitability of a business.
Except that we don't need all the figures figures in hand to make a call, unless heaven forbid, MP-44 turns out to be a QC trainwreck and nightmare, which I highly doubt. The only question which needs to be answered to make a definitive statement, is whether the 3P offerings are a QC nightmare and made of dodgy quality plastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaptoDog
We wont have to wait that long at all. MS-01 is already in some people's hands already and at least one well known online retailer has it slated for release this month (I'm not sure what the release date for the other offering is). In the next few weeks we'll know what these figures are like and if the QC and quality of plastic are up there with recent MP releases, then it puts TT in a very precarious position with the fan community and one where serious questions need to be asked of and answered by them.
To be clear, I wasn't saying you were saying this, my comment was more to do with how common this sentiment is going to be as this trend continues:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
"Superior" arguably implies value for money. Say there's a 2% difference in quality between 2 near identical products, but a 20% difference in price - no one is going to say that for all intents and purposes the product that costs 20% more is superior, because par for par, they were 18% more expensive for the same level of quality, meaning they were less effective and therefore inferior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
You're saying that it's superior to the competition, but what if it isn't? What if when, say, Magic Square release their offerings (which is happening this month), the plastic quality, QC and engineering are on par with recent Masterpieces and therefore presumably MP-44? What makes it better then? Features that come with it? If so, are those features worth paying 333% more for the Takara version? You might make that call, but given how divisive the price has been, do you honestly think that the more moderate, less invested fans in Takara will?
I'll mention something at this juncture. I met the guy who designed Omnigonix Spinout in person one day in a chance happening. He told me that a fair chunk of the Third Party designers, are either current or former HasTak employees who moonlight. That means that the engineering and design of Third Party figures is in many cases, on par with that of HasTak in house. Iirc he also mentioned that the big issue was with QC in Chinese factories, but even that has been something which has been steadily improving.
The days when HasTak could trade off the argument of "Official superior, 3P inferior," are increasingly coming to an end. As others have noted, while they can wipe out KOs easily, unless they trademark every single likeness of every single TF in every media they have officially appeared in, which has been argued to be more of a headache than it's worth for them, then HasTak cannot shut Third Party companies down.
If HasTak aren't careful, their own hubris is going to bite them in the butt in a very damaging way.
Those numbers on tfw don't mean anything as the numbers of voters are soo low! At the end of the day we're the minority posting on the net.
The other offerings are far from perfect and 3rd parties will try to one up each other and the official, so there will be plenty of options later.
I have a feeling that MP-44 will end up like EVA prime/Beast wars Dinobot.
You dare bring logic and reason into this discussion?! *shakes fist at you* :pQuote:
Originally Posted by DaptoDog
Oh look! Generalisations, jumping to conclusions and arguing with people that have different collecting preferences.
I must be on TFW.
And speaking of, I love that TFW poll. You people are ready to burn MP-44 at the stake because a poll, located in the 3rd party sub forum with 600 votes has only half going to MP-44?
You guys are hilarious. You could do polling predictions for the Liberal Party :rolleyes:
One thing about both the 3rd party offerings is they are not unique transformations like MP44. They just use MP10 as a base and improve on it, they didn't design a new Optimus from the ground up like MP44.
Takara already put the work in to make MP10 years ago and these are just minor upgrades to Takara's own efforts. I feel praising their efforts on copying something Takara already did is a huge dis-service to Takara.
As everyone has said yes MP44 is expensive and that is a valid concern but price aside MP44 is superior in every other aspect to both 3rd party primes.
Magic square prime also has larger legs which translate to a large trailer hitch to the point where mounting MP10's trailer makes it sit askew.
Look from page 40 backwards -- people have been critical of MP-44 long before the poll was posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
So you're attacking a generalisation by making generalisations? How's that working out for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
How is anyone jumping to conclusions here? MS-01 is out, the pricing difference is known and the differences in features are known. The "you're jumping to conclusions" argument is a good month out of date at this point - unless you're claiming that people are definitely saying that the material and QC on MP-44 are going to be utterly crappy - and I've seen no one make that call.
Also where exactly has anyone here abused anyone for having different collecting preferences?
I wont speak for others, but speaking for myself, what in my arguments about price, quality control and materials even directly referenced the TFW poll? Truth be told, when I couldn't see it without logging on, I decided to ignore it as far as my stance on this goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
And when you use language like "You people are ready to burn MP-44 at the stake" it really does come across as you being so heavily invested in it that you're practically accusing anyone who sees an issue here and a bad decision that will probably bite TT in the rear in the long term, as practically engaging in secular heresy (of the kind committed by someone wearing an "I support 2 teams: _______ and whoever's playing Manly" when walking up the steps into the Manly Warringah Leagues club - oh and Sea Eagles fans, offence intended as someone who was a Norths supporter as a kid :P ).
Did it occur to you that at least some of the critical commentary is rooted in the flow-on effects this decision might have on the future of the entire Masterpiece line?
Weren't partisan party politics off limits according to the board rules? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
Even if you take that argument, you're still talking about massive changes, such as completely re-engineered legs on MS-01, which were arguably the biggest thing which needed updating from MP-10 and MP-01.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevac
Given what's happened, I don't think you can ignore it. I've never seen a situation like this in the entirety of the Masterpiece line. Ordinarily it's a "shut up and take my money" situation and cost isn't a factor. Ordinarily, the transformation is kept under wraps so as not to give anything away - this time Takara have spoilered the hell out of this. Ordinarily retailers aren't nervous about preorders; this time HLJ was making people confirm they would honour preorders when people ordered them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevac
This whole situation has been bad PR for Takara and at best, the reaction has been far more lukewarm than usual.
Honestly, I wonder how much of the price is the cost of MP-44 and how much of this is them trying to make up for the losses in projected earnings due to the loss of Pokémon to Bandai.
While MS-01 does borrow from MP-10, TE-01 is a unique design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevac
Here's the transformation:
https://youtu.be/GNgPvlhR4RA?t=6m53s
It looks nothing like the transformation of MP-10, and is a lot more complex.
TE-01 is also compatible with MP-10's trailer:
https://youtu.be/GNgPvlhR4RA?t=20m59s
Until MP-44 is in-hand, no one can say that it is superior. But if you think it's superior for your needs, then fine.
Points have been made, I really don't see the need to continue discussing 3P figures in this thread. Not trying to shoot down the discussion of these alternative Optimus Prime figures, just feel it would be best discussed in the unauthorised area.
I think you just obliterated that complexity difference argument so much that it's worse off than Starscream's body after Galvatron was done with it in the 1986 movie ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!
There are certainly some looseness issues I can see here, but the plastic looks sturdy. Like I said, I think Takara is going to find they've massively miscalculated. I just hope that there's some massive course correction with MP-45 or there could be dark clouds on the horizon for the future of the MP line.
It's a pre-production sample that's been doing the rounds with the Chinese reviewers, so that's probably contributed to the looseness.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowspearer
Honestly, this all just makes me really sad. I was watching that TE-01 video and I'm having reactions of "that's so awesome" and "shut up and take my money" and a second later, I'm mindful that I'm not getting the same reactions from MP-44 - not because the complexity isn't there, but because the price is such a turn off.Quote:
Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!
It deeply troubles me in terms of the future of the Masterpiece line. If the trend is increasingly going to be more expensive figures with more limited runs, then how long is it before a run becomes so high priced and so limited that they can't justify it?
Heck for that matter, does it mean that our chances of seeing the rest of the minicars is somewhere between a snowball's change in hell and sweet bugger all?
What happens then? Do we end up with Third Party companies essentially tying up the entire market share of the Masterpiece market?
And for those who say this is over-reacting, just look at the exponential jumps in pricing.
Seriously, what's next, a $300 MP-45 hound?
And from there, where does it stop?
Agreed. It would be nice if the thread about MP-44 could stay being about MP-44.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaptoDog
I thought promotion of 3P toys outside their dedicated section was a violation of the rules, or am I interpreting them wrong?
18 - Unauthorised "third party" items and Knock Off item restrictions
Posting about (or selling) Unauthorised toys and accessories that specifically target the Transformers Brand and/or established Characters, is only permitted in the Unauthorised Products section. Sale of Counterfeit (Knock Off) Transformers toys or merchandise is prohibited here. Limited awareness of Counterfeit Transformers is allowed, to help other fans identify a fake when trying to purchase a legit figure, and should be contained within the Knock Off ID section.
A similar issue has already come up earlier in the thread, and the site owner responded in post #157:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Phantom
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpo...&postcount=157
No one in this thread has told anyone to buy any of the 3P figures, it's just the same old issue about price being rehashed, with the added discussion over desirability and design; and given that 3P companies are in the midst of releasing their figures, it was only natural that comparisons would arise. When the inevitable KOs appear, it will also be inevitable that comparisons will arise.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
If you think a post has contravened the rules, then you are within your rights to report the post.
The other thing is that trying to censor a reasonable discussion just because you don't like what is being said, isn't going to make things go away.
I honestly don't think anyone wanted the situation with MP-44 to be like this- I certainly didn't - and it deeply saddens me that this figure release, which should have been divided between opions of "I'm happy with MP-10" and "shut up and take my money" has instead turned into a painful experience on the wallet, a financial turn-off and a spouler fest by Takara, whwn ordinarily they keep transformations top secret. It's not just the price that irks me, it's that this experience is so different from the hypefest that past MP releases have been. Then to make matters worse, the price gulf between TT and 3P has now gotten so large that 3P actually looks like it's a way better deal. And I'm saying that as someone who's been opposed to KO and 3P alternatives.
And no, I'm not saying I want the 3P option; I'm saying I want my Masterpiece golden era back dammit!
Don't get carried away, nobody is trying to censor you. I have not reported any posts and Daptodog explicitly said he didn't want to shut down discussion either, but said perhaps there are more relevant areas of the forum to discuss 3P.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowspearer
Well if Griffin is cool with it being mentioned in this area then I won't bring it up again. In future I'll just keep scrolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!
You've got to admit, as far as head sculpts go, it's damn sexy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvatran
If you guys don't compare and contrast with 3p figures then you never know whats good or bad with the MP-44. I am not going to object to comparisons, but just make sure the focus is still MP-44 and not go overboard.
IMO, the 3p of both MS and TE doesn't cut it for me.
1. Both lacked paint on red
2. TE has a not great sculpt on the head
Price wise they are great but ultimately comes down to design and finish.
Too early to praise MP-44 as I wont know if the red is painted or bare red plastic.
There are consequences for this move by TT. I might have bought my last MP and call it quits. For me, I only will wait for a Jazz MP if it ever happens, but anything else, I lost interest in supporting.
The argument for which is better 3p or TT, is not a topic in this thread. There are a lot of issues on both and it will derail the topic.
Overall I am very disappointed in the pricing and is more like a suck it up.
Rather than being negative I just hope TT does a good job on this piece.
Have to admit, he's looking better and better all the time... that price is still killer, though. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!
It's beautiful.
It really is, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnertwin
I largely agreed with many of Bowspearer's arguments about the jetpack and extras being too expensive. Then Megatron HAD to go and post those damn pictures..... and now I'm in love. I desperately want it, I crave it, I needs it my precious! Yessss.....
But I don't know how I'm going to afford it, I really don't. And the voice clips wouldn't be Peter Cullen in English either, would it? Maybe I should just wait for Hasbro to do it, IF they ever do it. I still have a stand though with voice clips..... really on the fence with this one.
Electric. Straddled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reillyd
Sorry! :(
I think there's no harm in sitting out this first run -- maybe Takara (or Hasbro Asia) will release a stripped down version in the future. I can definitely see Hasbro Asia doing something like that (like what happened with their Soundwave and five included tapes).
Plus this a Prime figure, and it's not as if it won't be re-released in the future multiple times.