The Soapbox XII: The Convenient Truth

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Originally Posted by kup

So what you say?

Well one thing is creating an Ultra Magnus kit that is very loosely based on Hasbro's intellectual property but is considerably different in engineering, design and appearance to anything that Hasbro has ever produced in the past as well as being something that there is absolutely no chance that Hasbro will ever do. Another is copying the almost the exact design part by part of an existing official toy - down scaling it and then selling it without any royalties given to the creator than invested 95% of the overall Research, design and engineering.

- A fan kit is like an unofficial Addon Map pack for an existing Video game.

- This smaller MP Prime is like grabbing an existing game, copying it on a blank DVD with your own custom cover and then selling it.

As much difference as Apples and Oranges

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"loosely based on Hasbro's intellectual property"? ? ?

:D ;) :rolleyes:

You seem to place no weight whatsoever in the character that Hasbro/Takara has built up. Sure in the case of CC, Ultra Magnus is no Optimus Prime. But if you take an unbiased view of it the simple cold and hard fact is that there is extreme value in the IP of a character. It's what transcends. Not the toy mold of the 80s but the character, Thats why a character remains recognisable in all his incarnations whether he be G1 Prime, RiD Prime, Optimus Optimal etc.

Hasbro/Takara have invested heavily in the character to make it recognisable, to make it valuable. They research the market, the design the character in their studios, run focus groups, refine their designs etc. That's not effort? That is some serious effort to build a character that kids will care about, that kids who grow into adults still resonate with. For some third party to take that value in the IP is not right for a single moment. Tell me that you brought CC b/c you thought it was loosely based on Hasbro/Takara's IP then. Or did you buy it b/c its the modern representation of Ultra Magnus?

I think the answer's pretty obvious.

Just b/c its engineered does not make it for a moment less significant than the IP within a character. CC Ultra Magnus is clearly intended to be the modern (classics/universe) representation of Ultra Magnus. Pure and simple. it's folly to assert that you bought it b/c

1.) "it was loosely based on Hasbro's intellectual property'"
2.) not deceptive nor fraudulent

Again, i don't disagree with u about the iGears Prime infringing IP but I'm trying to show you that the IP of a character is just as valuable, if not more, than a toy mold.

And that's what inspired the title of this Soapbox: "the Convenient Truth" b/c the reasons (excuses) levelled show a constant changing of goal posts by fans. Perhaps, as I propose, a better position is to realise we no longer occupy a tenable position and just ignore the issue altogether as otherwise we risk being hypocritical and coming up with convenient truths to justify why something is all so bad when something else is not.

You can't keep changing your goalposts. One moment its all about deception. The next moment its about engineering. The next moment its about Hasbro/Takara not wanting to do it anyway. The next moment its why should I pay so much for a toy when I can get a cheaper accessory set? It's as simple as the fact that we don't need convenient truths. Just accept the fact that we buy toys that impinge on IP and move on instead of trying to adopt some moral high ground.

Your argument is way too black & white in a topic that is so ambiguously gray and I believe this does not allow you to take into account perspective or context.

City Commander is not recreating fiction about Magnus so Hasbro's investment in the character is none relevant and as mentioned, the character design is different to anything that Hasbro has produced. City Commander's existance is not by any means taking away Hasbro's right to the character - It is actually reenforcing its appeal and as previously mentioned it has helped to sell what was just another repaint that no one cared about. Hasbro has not lost anything due to City Commander, on the contrary it has gained and actually reenforce the popularity of the character that may even help Hasbro sell more toys of him in the future.

This new scaled down MP Prime is now competing with the new officially released black repaint - See the difference?

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Originally Posted by kup

City Commander is not recreating fiction about Magnus so Hasbro's investment in the character is none relevant and as mentioned, the character design is different to anything that Hasbro has produced. City Commander's existance is not by any means taking away Hasbro's right to the character - It is actually reenforcing its appeal and as previously mentioned it has helped to sell what was just another repaint that no one cared about. Hasbro has not lost anything due to City Commander, on the contrary it has gained and actually reenforce the popularity of the character that may even help Hasbro sell more toys of him in the future.

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None of this mumbo jumbo has any legal relevance in excusing an IP violation outside of Kup World.

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Originally Posted by kup

This new scaled down MP Prime is now competing with the new officially released black repaint - See the difference?

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Ah, OK. I get it now. If you can violate IP in a way that doesn't directly compete, it's OK?

Here is a text book example of this Soapbox:

In one thread, you deride a company for making what you call a KO, and in another thread, you're organizing a group purchase of an item from the SAME company which is an equally (arguably more so) direct replica of an upcoming product accessory from Takara.

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Originally Posted by STL

And that's what inspired the title of this Soapbox: "the Convenient Truth" b/c the reasons (excuses) levelled show a constant changing of goal posts by fans. Perhaps, as I propose, a better position is to realise we no longer occupy a tenable position and just ignore the issue altogether as otherwise we risk being hypocritical and coming up with convenient truths to justify why something is all so bad when something else is not.

You can't keep changing your goalposts. One moment its all about deception. The next moment its about engineering. The next moment its about Hasbro/Takara not wanting to do it anyway. The next moment its why should I pay so much for a toy when I can get a cheaper accessory set? It's as simple as the fact that we don't need convenient truths. Just accept the fact that we buy toys that impinge on IP and move on instead of trying to adopt some moral high ground.

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I don't see the reason for making people feel bad about something Hasbro themselves show no interest in prohibiting (and have even stated at BotCon that they are happy with *small scale* fan-stuff). No one here is claiming that any unauthorised products, either replicating or inspired by the Transformers brand/likeness, are legal (and are therefore unethical to acquire). The focus has been on the level of legality of each of these concepts. It isn't valid to say that all things illegal, are equally illegal. If it were, we would have the same penalties for stealing a loaf of bread, as we would for killing someone.
When you try to make out that all things here are equally illegal, it's only natural that others are going to come back with a reason why they aren't, so that they aren't being put into the same category as Counterfeit toys (which is actually something Hasbro do have a problem with).
If Hasbro themselves don't see Fan-produced stuff as being as bad as Counterfeit TFs, then don't try to label people of both categories as being just as bad as each other. Until Hasbro actually cracks down on the fan-produced, non-replica stuff, that sort of 'convenience' is just going to stir up tensions among fans who are still collecting within the scope of Hasbro policy.

Sorry guys, I'm closing this thread for now.

It is one thing to share opposing viewpoints in this thread (and I see all sides already had plenty of time to present and discuss their viewpoints.)

But it is another thing when we start to question fellow members' actions from other threads. It has long passed the point when the new discussions in this thread would benefit any of us in anyway.

We are all fellow fans with the same passion for TF and mates on this forum. I hope there'll be no hard feelings. :)

STL, I would love to read your next Soapbox. :)

Please PM me or other mods if any of you disagree with this.

Ok I'm re-opening the thread. But please keep in mind what I was trying to say in my previous post. The thread will be closed if it gets unfriendly to fellow members. Thanks guys.

As mentioned, I see the miniature MP Prime as a knock off and although the same company has indeed made the Grimlock crown - It is not the same thing.

The Grimlock crown is just an accessory made to compensate for the first release lacking it. We all saw the proototypes with the crown and we all thought until shortly before release that it was going to come with it. Instead it was released with the ridiculous Season 3 waiter kit. What this accessory kit is doing is giving us an accessory that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it and is not willing to go and buy a whole new MP Grimlock just for the crown alone.

The crown kit would only be the same violation as the miniature MP Prime if it actually came with a Grimlock figure. Interestingly enough the crown was also announced before we even knew about King Grimlock.

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Originally Posted by griffin

I don't see the reason for making people feel bad about something Hasbro themselves show no interest in prohibiting (and have even stated at BotCon that they are happy with *small scale* fan-stuff). No one here is claiming that any unauthorised products, either replicating or inspired by the Transformers brand/likeness, are legal (and are therefore unethical to acquire). The focus has been on the level of legality of each of these concepts. It isn't valid to say that all things illegal, are equally illegal. If it were, we would have the same penalties for stealing a loaf of bread, as we would for killing someone.
When you try to make out that all things here are equally illegal, it's only natural that others are going to come back with a reason why they aren't, so that they aren't being put into the same category as Counterfeit toys (which is actually something Hasbro do have a problem with).
If Hasbro themselves don't see Fan-produced stuff as being as bad as Counterfeit TFs, then don't try to label people of both categories as being just as bad as each other. Until Hasbro actually cracks down on the fan-produced, non-replica stuff, that sort of 'convenience' is just going to stir up tensions among fans who are still collecting within the scope of Hasbro policy.

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Well, so we aren't supposed to be angry unless Hasbro/Takara are unhappy about it? In that case, we better not get angry about poor quality control. we better not get upset about ridiculously high retial prices. we better not... I could start off on a long list of things we shouldn't be discussing unless Hasbro/Takara are unahppy about it but I'm not going to. The point being that that's not really a valid yardstick here either. What we've been tossing around are all these moral accusations at KOers and whatnot. Let's have a discussion about those points rather than saying "unless Hasbro/Takara are unhappy about it we're not going to have a discussion about it" If that were teh case, there would be a lot of discussions that should just never be had.

And its very sad to see this "legal approach" label being thrown around. I've put forward countless moral arguments yet there are those who still want to see this thread as arguing legality. It isn't. It's a part of the argument but you only need to look several posts back to have a look at some moral points raised. And I might add too, there's a stark and telling silence in response to those moral counterpoints. It'd be quite nice if someone would respond.

The main point I'm trying to assert is actually we don't have solid moral high ground to occupy anymore given you can't support one yet deride the other on some arbitrary basis that conveniently justifies your desire to buy it. There isn't a moral high ground you can with conviction hold unless you buy non of the mass-customs. It's incredibly shaky and the goal posts keep just changing.

Again,

a.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they aren't currently using it?
b.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they're " that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it "?
c.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c its too expensive to purchase the whole item again (which happens to be an exclusive)?
d.) Is it okay to steal another's IP if you aren't fraudulent and deceptive?
e.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c they aren't currently producing it?

These are very much moral questions here based on the collection of responses so far propogated here.

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Originally Posted by kup

As mentioned, I see the miniature MP Prime as a knock off and although the same company has indeed made the Grimlock crown - It is not the same thing.

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I agree, they're completely different things. One's an accessory, the other's an actual toy. But fact is they both rely heavily on the IP of someone else. And in the case of the crown, it's clearly in direct competition with Takara's exclusive which it went out of its way with to try and make a unique offering to the market. But now it's been stepped all over b/c as yourself and others noted earlier, why buy the more expensive set for just a crown?

To paraphrase you but with reference to say Animated Wingblade Prime if it had been produced by some custom group:

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Originally Posted by kup

The Grimlock crown is just an accessory made to compensate for the first release lacking it.

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The Wingblade armour is just an accessory made to compensate for the first release lacking it.

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Originally Posted by kup

What this accessory kit is doing is giving us an accessory that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it and is not willing to go and buy a whole new MP Grimlock just for the crown alone.

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What this accessory kit is doing is giving us an accessory that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it and is not willing to go and buy a whole new Animated voyager Prime just for the armour alone.

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Originally Posted by kup

The crown kit would only be the same violation as the miniature MP Prime if it actually came with a Grimlock figure. Interestingly enough the crown was also announced before we even knew about King Grimlock.

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The Wingblade kit would only be the same violation as the miniature MP Prime if it actually came with a Voyager Prime figure. Interestingly enough the wingblade kit was also announced before we even knew about Wingblade Optimus Prime.
I hope the above illustrates just how tenuous that argument is. So it's okay to directly compete with Hasbro as long as you don't have to buy the whole figure again? You just take out the core appeal of the re-release (Wingblade armour or the crown), sell it separately and it's okay b/c it completes your Voyager Prime/Grimlock? Where does that leave Hasbro/Takara? Someone's making something that directly competes with their upcoming product.

Secondly, another quandry that you've brought up is annoucement. So if Hasbro/Takara don't announce to us what they intend to produce then it's okay to go out there and do it yourself? I think not. It's like previously, you do not build on a part of someone's land just b/c they haven't used it for the last 10 years now, do you? And besides, why should Hasbro/Takara tell us what they're producing so we can decide whether or not to produce ourselvse? They don't have to.

Animated Voyager Prime by the time Wingblade Prime hits will have been available for clsoe to 2 years. I can tell you at the start that Hasbro probably didn't even know that was in the pipeline. But they at some point, when planning for another year, sit down and thought about it and decided to produce Wingblade Prime. It's not quite fair to expect Hasbro/Takara to have to announce everything beforehand when really it's their IP - character or mold. So to produce a crown or Wingblade Prime would not be justifiable. It competes quite directly with what they are intending to offer.



In any event, while there is disagreement on this view I think it will be very interesting in the future. The lines are becoming grayer and grayer and more convenient truths are being used as we see more customs that really test this issue and I'm certainly sure that this topic isn't done with yet given things like Arcee and Defender etc are in the pipeline.

While i have no problem with anyone buying any of these (or KOs), I see a problem when one derides KOs on some moral high ground and yet goes out there and purchases mass custom product. Just accept them all or not at all b/c you have to realise that they only exist b/c of the very same infringement that allows each of them to exist - the theft of IP. And is theft ever moral? Which leads is back to the same old questions

a.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they aren't currently using it?
b.) Is it okay to steal another's IP just b/c they're " that 'completes' that release for everyone who bought it "?
c.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c its too expensive to purchase the whole item again (which happens to be an exclusive)?
d.) Is it okay to steal another's IP if you aren't fraudulent and deceptive?
e.) Is it okay to steal another's IP b/c they aren't currently producing it?

I think that you are missing the point of our arguments. As griffin said you cannot judge everything equally bad in such a black and white manner - You have to also assess the context of the release in question.

If Wingblade Prime kit was suddenly and deliberately announced right after Hasbro had announced their own release then yeah it is a knock off and on top of that its not worth it as the custom is likely to cost as much as the official release as its a lower end toy plus it comes with an official 'adapted' Prime figure to fit the armor but that's irrelevant to the topic in question since this scenario has not happened and we are talking about what makes a custom kit 'good' or a KO. However if Hasbro had announced or it becomes clear that there would never be a Wingblade Prime then that validates the existence and relevance of the kit. It's basically all about context.

MP Grimlock on the other hand is a very expensive high end toy which was supposed to come with a crown which happend to be missing from the final product - Just the crown. Not many people would go forth and spend the same or more likely an increased amount again ranging from $250-$300+ on the same toy only for the crown. The custom crown is only $15-$17 before shipping and 'completes' your first release Grimlock and if it wasn't for the kit several Grimlocks would simply remain 'uncrowned' with the owner not bothering with the new release. Using myself as an example, if the only difference between the first Grimlock and King Grimlock was just the crown I would not have bothered with the newer release at all with or without the custom crown available.

Truth is often a matter of context and perspective such as with Fan Kits. I see the term of 'An inconvenient Truth' on this topic as none applicable as you are trying to enforce a generalized but absolute term of 'True/False' on something that is very much a gray area that can become 'moral' or 'immoral' depending on the context in which its used as well as execution.

This Wingblade Prime a clear knock off and I consider it as bad in a similar way as the miniature MP Prime for reasons already explained:

http://kotoys.com/Photos/Animated/aniOSOPstars01.jpg

Am I missing something here? We all have the option to vote with our wallets. If you have an objection against unlicensed products, then just don't buy them. Buy choosing to purchase them you are therefore choosing to support them. AFAIK nobody has a gun pointed to their head and is being forced to buy these things.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...moneymouth.jpg
Put your money where your mouth is.