Martial arts discussion thread

There is no first strike in karate.

Nice one. :)

i disagree with some of what has been said. to me defensive tech is blocking,parry,covering and footwork. unless u have a clear escape path you normaly have to fight back. attacking techniques such as strikes, grabs,chokes,throws are essential. why wait to teach a student this, surely they are better off building a solid well balanced foundation to begin with. pre emptive striking can also be neessary at times.this does not mean i agree with starting fights as the person you refer to though Gok.
apologies too as i am using a t-hub to write this qnd it takes ages and wish i could type more but frustrating thing this touch pad is lol.

It all depends on the situation. Legally we're entitled to use reasonable force in self defence - so if an attacker is presenting us with sufficient force, then we can retaliate with more aggressive techniques such as striking. I don't think anyone is saying that attacking and striking are necessarily wrong or bad.

Funakoshi said there is no first strike which means that a Karateka shouldn't be making the first attack. Now remember that you don't need to wait to be hit in order to defend yourself. The law defines assault as any act which makes you fear for your safety. The following scenarios also legally count as assault which would entitle you to act in self-defence:
+ Credible verbal threats. e.g. if someone says, "I'm gonna f***ing smash you!" then you can strike. They already verbally attacked your first, so your strike really isn't a "first" strike.
+ Violent/hostile/aggressive gesture or body language. e.g. if a person raises a fist at you or presents a weapon in a threatening manner then you are entitled to pre-emptively engage in self defence. Even if a person looks like they're about to throw a strike (e.g. chamber a punch) then you can strike.
...but in all of these scenarios, it's not you who's the instigator. You can pre-emptively react to an attack, but not initiate the attack - and I believe that's what Funakoshi meant by a "first strike".

Also there are many ways to _passively_ attack and strike that are less aggressive and devastating. For example, if someone is obstructing your escape path you can grapple an incoming strike and move them out of the way so that you can run away. You don't _have_ to hit them. Depends on the situation of course.

But my earlier point - and it's a point I've made before - is that teachers need to be selective in terms of what techniques they teach to who... and particularly be careful in avoiding teaching more aggressive techniques to people with an aggressive disposition (i.e. someone who's inclined to be a thug or bully). A morally responsible instructor should feel quite concerned if any of his/her students were to use techniques taught by them to go around attacking people. Unfortunately it seems that some instructors don't seem to care -- just as long as their student turns up to lessons, pays their fees and behaves at the Dojo then it's all good. They're not too concerned about their behaviour outside of the Dojo (where it matters). Some instructors are just as bad. I once met an instructor who worked as a bouncer and he was suspending from bouncing for a period of time because he had used excessive force in dealing with clients. :/

IMO people with such dispositions should NOT be taught aggressive martial arts techniques. If an instructor becomes aware that a student of theirs has such a disposition, then they should either:
+ Stop teaching them any more aggressive techniques (either solely revise techniques already learnt or just expel them - depending on the situation)
+ Teach them passive defensive techniques.

A lot of internal martial arts specialise in passive techniques, and some like Aikido almost exclusively uses defensive techniques -- Aikido has almost no attacking moves. Aikido (as well as Jujutsu) evolved from Taijutsu which was used by Samurai in situations where they were unable to draw their sword (e.g. caught by surprise or in the presence of a Lord (where drawing one's weapon was illegal and redeemable by honourable Seppuku).

Sorry Gok but I read your posts in this thread and I can't help but think your someone who reads a little bit too much into the theory of things and idolises the 'old masters'.
In reality it is better to practise simple techniques as your fine motor skills rapidly get thrown out the window and all your fancy techniques that have been practised with a compliant partner (most schools are guilty of this as are most demonstrations on youtube and ones shown in this thread) do not work.
You were reluctant to answer if you had ever been in a real fight earlier, if you have you will know this to be true, hence why a lot of 'martial artists' or 'blackbelts' get snotted in a real fight. They have either never been exposed to real violence before or not trained for it or they are ineffectual as there perfectly practised roundhouse punch or spinning dragon magic kick with no shadow didn't turn into the fight stopper like it did in the dojo/kwoon.
A lot of what you type has sound principles as I have read a lot of this before but instead of taking other peoples words as gospel broaden your horizons and expose yourself to other styles and training so you can actually comment on it from experience. You bag out some styles for being 'sport' styles etc but in reality a lot of these guys who train in these styles are better equiped for a real fight than you and your traditional stylist practitioners.
Just wondering how long you have been training for?
Considering you can spar with your arms tied behind your back and with a blindfold you must be impressive, regardless of wether it is with white belts or not....though then again if I was a white belt again (something which has been the case many times over the years as I expose myself to different styles) I would have found this rather insulting.
Looking forward to chatting with you about this.

This is an interesting point that Hot Rodimus makes. When I first looked into starting martial arts I really wanted to learn one specific discipline, but due to lack of schools in Ulladulla I had to study KRMAS. I was a little bit hesitant at first as although it is mainly a type of karate (I'm not sure of what style yet as I haven't asked my instructor) it also incorporates other disciplines. Now after going for 6 weeks this is now my preference as it is a very practical system that we learn. My instructor demonstrated this last night. He got mysef and several other late 20's-early 30's in the class who have had some real fight experience. (By real I mean out a pub real) He then gave us a variety of (training) weapons and asked as to attack as best we could. I gave my instructor every thing I had and he took me out with ease, sorta embarresed that I squealed like a girl too:o

Bartrim thanks as you sort of reinforce one of the points I was making.
No one style covers everything, there are great striking arts, great grappling arts and great weapon styles but no one particular style contains everything.
While it is a sport MMA has really put it into the spotlight for martial artists that striking and grappling skills are necessary. Don't believe me? hop on youtube or search the net for real fight footage, you will almost always see that a real fight contains elements of both striking and grappling.
Not all schools can offer a syllabus that incorporates grappling and striking techniques especially if they are more 'traditional' schools so if you have the time join another school that does offer the component that is missing.
But the most important thing is how do you train your techniques? If it is with compliant partners and bouncy bouncy touch sparring (think NAS tournaments, and taekwondo to generalise) then you are wasting your time. Practising technique with non compliant partners and Pad work/bag work and controlled sparring with contact is essential....... or you could just do Tai Chi instead and tell everyone you are a martial artist lol

Good to hear you are training Bartrim, your style actually sounds interesting would love to hear more about it. I read in an earlier post about you being nervous before starting, happens to me too every time I try a new school. I am starting boxing at a well known gym next week, I know how to box and have done a fair bit of Muay Thai but I still get a butterfly in the tummy feeling lol.But you have done the hardest part I reckon which is the initial commitment. Good work!

Just had a look at your style Bartrim on this website
http://www.krmas.com.au/karate.html

I have never heard of it before but looks pretty good to me mate. The Karate they teach is freestyle karate from the sounds of it which can be a very good system. Just depends on what elements are incorporated from each style and how it is trained.

If they also teach some of the other styles like Muay Thai and MMA at the location you train at I think you should try those out too after you feel comfortable with the Karate and have a good base set of skills.

Thanks Hot Rodimus. It is a great style and I really enjoy it. In the 6 weeks I've been going we have done all sorts of striking (punching, knees, kicking) and last night we did hip throws. Again I like how practical it is. While we learn techniques we partner up with someone our own size, but once we learn the techniques we switch partners around to learn about leverage and throwing people of different shapes and sizes. I also questioned my sensei last night because he was explaining about how all the moves in our kata including the prep are actual fighting moves. One movement we do is an eye gouge. I questioned the honour of using an eye gouge. He told me that while it wasn't honourable KRMAS concentrates on practicality and if you ever get into a situation where you need to use the techniques chances are your opponent wont exactly to be concerned with honourable fighting techniques.

sounds good Bartrim, an instructor who will explain things like yours does is a good sign also if you question things your instructor should be able to explain the principles or reasoning behind it instead of not knowing or saying something like "that is how the masters did it".

Totally agree with using things like eye gouges not that I ever have. If you train to use it effectively then it can be a great weapon to have in your arsenal. It is not something I have trained much to do, we did learn them when I did wing chun years ago but to me it was hard to train as I prefer other strikes. He is spot on the money about honour having nothing to do with it too, honour really has nothing to do with fighting once the actual fight begins.

Sounds like you have got a good school, thank god you didn't have a GKR dojo near you, those guys are almost everywhere and are the Amway of Martial Arts....but I better not get started on that lol.