SPOILER THREAD: SW: The Force Awakens

Just like no one mentions that Anakin is Darth Vader and Luke's father until near the end of the movie EP VI. Maybe it was easier to tell of Darth Vader's exploits as a conqueror than the hero of the Republic as he's killed so many before changing sides at the end. And Luke as the hero is easier as he's a Jedi.

We all paint history differently to suit our needs. If Ben/Ren would've known that Vader was good, it would totally change his view.

Vader never knowingly tried to kill his family. He just killed Jedi trainers/council/kids as his view was distorted. Ben/Ren's story is different in this regard.

Don't know why a heroine is the point of this story now (maybe need to vary it) as Leia never seemed to have learned how to use her Jedi powers as she's Luke's twin (therefore, equally powerful).

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Originally Posted by Verno

Also, in regards to traveling via hyperspace: The Republic fleet can't arrive in time to help with the fight against the Star-Killer, but the Falcon zooms off to some far-flung planet in a matter of moments? Urgh.

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Well that's just the same JJ speed we see in his Star Trek films, where you can cross the galaxy and back and be home in time for tea.

As I understood it, Star Killer base presumably wiped out the Republic fleet when they blew up the Hosnian system. Which according to the Guide to the movie books was the governing world of the Republic, so effectively the Republic would be shattered (again). And yet no one seemed to care at all, odd too that the Resistance seemed to know all about this base and super weapon but no one seemed to warn the Republic, or they were to self absorbed/stupid to care.

Perhaps the only was to get decent government in the Star Wars universe is with a tyrannical dictator, because in the words of another villain good is dumb.:D

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I would disagree about Maul, because his very exposure to the Jedi allowed them to finally know that the Sith were real (and not just mythical Boogey Men as they'd previously believed). And he didn't just kill one "guy," he single-handedly killed a Jedi! And he very nearly killed Obi-Wan too. Do you know how hard it is to kill a Force User? Try playing the Star Wars RPG or Miniatures game using a fairly average character (e.g. Imperial Stormtrooper) against a unique Jedi or Sith character and see if you can kill that Force User on your own. Good luck. :o

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Unless Order 666 is being used then Jedi die like hopeless mooks, all their force senses rendered useless for no good reason.

Was Luke at his wifes grave?
*tense music*

According to the resistance had been warning the republic, but enough time had passed that they were new young politicians with their own agendas, and see Leia as a crazy old lady.... She also has to send aids to try and get things done, as she figures if she went to the system, she wouldn't make it out without some "accident"

Maybe they should've killed off Leia instead Han. That would be a very tormenting/haunting event for Ben/Ren.

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Originally Posted by Sinnertwin

Im a bit disappointed that he didn't get an action figure
😏

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Dude, it's Star Wars. Everyone eventually gets an action figure! If Wuher can get an action figure, then I reckon anybody can (eventually)! :D

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zed

Unless Order 666 is being used then Jedi die like hopeless mooks, all their force senses rendered useless for no good reason.

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Isn't Order 666 when all the Clones start headbanging to death metal? :p
Order 66 is different though, and hardly single handed. The entire thing is a giant mechanism that's taken decades to prepare. It's an incredibly intricate plan which involves:
* breeding an army of clones that are genetically programmed to take orders without question;
* integrating the Jedi into this army, allowing the Clones and Jedi to build a deep bond; wage a war for several years where the Clones are continually following battle orders under the Jedi's command - thus the Jedi are acclimatised to how the Force feels like whenever the Clones shoot someone;
* activating Order 66, where the Clones are just following yet another order to shoot someone. There is a trigger in the Force, but the Jedi have been feeling it for years during the Clone Wars, and also Order 66 is ordered in the middle of battle, so the Force hasn't even had a chance to "ebb" (thus allowing the Jedi to be more sensitive to any fluctuations). This allows the Clones to take the Jedi by complete surprise.

The whole thing works like a magic trick where you misdirect the audience in order to successfully perform an illusion. Palpatine set up the Clone Wars as one gargantuan misdirection, so that he could destroy the Jedi Order and topple the Republic (thus establishing the Empire). Nobody saw it coming because they were all deceived.

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Originally Posted by jazzcomp

Maybe they should've killed off Leia instead Han. That would be a very tormenting/haunting event for Ben/Ren.

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I don't see why Leia's death would've been any more or less tormenting for Kylo Ben than Han's. Throughout the film we see Kylo struggling with the decision to do this. Talking about how he can still hear the Light Side calling him. We also see Ben struggling with the final decision, as he had tears streaming down his face and nearly surrendered his light sabre to Han. It felt like his decision really could've gone either way.

And this is similar to previous moments we've seen when a character switches between the Light and Dark Side -- they have an internal moral battle until one side triumphs. With Anakin, we see him watching Palpatine and Windu fighting each other, torn between which side he should support. Ultimately his own greed/selfishness triumphs as he attacks Windu, but we also see Anakin in tears followed by immediate regret as he falls to his knees ("What have I done?!"). Vader also similarly goes through an internal battle, which Luke always knew ("I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."), and while Vader initially denied it, he used his dying words to tell Luke that he was indeed conflicted ("Tell your sister... you were right."). Vader watches the Emperor killing Luke and he becomes tormented over which side to take. But this time he makes the right decision and saves his son, thus returning the the Light Side of the Force (or as Obi-Wan would put it, it was the moment that Anakin Skywalker was resurrected and destroyed Darth Vader).

But yeah, I don't think it really matters which parent Ben killed. Murdering either one was enough to baptise him in the Dark Side of the Force.

I was actually surprised by how little merchandising they had in this film. Sure there's a bunch of main characters and aliens, but they were relatively sparse on the sort of extras that Lucas would put in his films just because they'd make a good action figure.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Isn't Order 666 when all the Clones start headbanging to death metal? :p
Order 66 is different though, and hardly single handed. The entire thing is a giant mechanism that's taken decades to prepare. It's an incredibly intricate plan which involves:
* breeding an army of clones that are genetically programmed to take orders without question;
* integrating the Jedi into this army, allowing the Clones and Jedi to build a deep bond; wage a war for several years where the Clones are continually following battle orders under the Jedi's command - thus the Jedi are acclimatised to how the Force feels like whenever the Clones shoot someone;
* activating Order 66, where the Clones are just following yet another order to shoot someone. There is a trigger in the Force, but the Jedi have been feeling it for years during the Clone Wars, and also Order 66 is ordered in the middle of battle, so the Force hasn't even had a chance to "ebb" (thus allowing the Jedi to be more sensitive to any fluctuations). This allows the Clones to take the Jedi by complete surprise.

The whole thing works like a magic trick where you misdirect the audience in order to successfully perform an illusion. Palpatine set up the Clone Wars as one gargantuan misdirection, so that he could destroy the Jedi Order and topple the Republic (thus establishing the Empire). Nobody saw it coming because they were all deceived.

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Ah 66 then, I try to avoid re-watching the prequels, they hurt. Even with the surprise factor though the Jedi went down like flies, which tends to suggest that Jedi aren't that hard to kill at all, you just have to surprise them. It was also awfully convenient that it was in "the middle of battle" on every planet the Jedi were fighting on, although I suppose clone troopers cutting Jedi throats while they sleep wouldn't cut it in a PG movie. While I do kind of like that scene in the prequels I still felt the Jedi got shot-changed (only conehead guy put up a fight), along with half the whole Jedi Council getting taken out in one minute by Palaptine (again apparently thanks to surprise) It's hard to think of Jedi as difficult to kill. Also they really should have vetted those clone troopers.

If the Jedi were such a dangerous threat they should have just waited till most of them were embroiled in a mass battle like Genosia and then use their capitol ships to orbital bombard the whole planet, I'd like to see a lightsabre deflect a turbolaser blast.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I don't see why Leia's death would've been any more or less tormenting for Kylo Ben than Han's. Throughout the film we see Kylo struggling with the decision to do this. Talking about how he can still hear the Light Side calling him. We also see Ben struggling with the final decision, as he had tears streaming down his face and nearly surrendered his light sabre to Han. It felt like his decision really could've gone either way.

And this is similar to previous moments we've seen when a character switches between the Light and Dark Side -- they have an internal moral battle until one side triumphs. With Anakin, we see him watching Palpatine and Windu fighting each other, torn between which side he should support. Ultimately his own greed/selfishness triumphs as he attacks Windu, but we also see Anakin in tears followed by immediate regret as he falls to his knees ("What have I done?!"). Vader also similarly goes through an internal battle, which Luke always knew ("I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."), and while Vader initially denied it, he used his dying words to tell Luke that he was indeed conflicted ("Tell your sister... you were right."). Vader watches the Emperor killing Luke and he becomes tormented over which side to take. But this time he makes the right decision and saves his son, thus returning the the Light Side of the Force (or as Obi-Wan would put it, it was the moment that Anakin Skywalker was resurrected and destroyed Darth Vader).

But yeah, I don't think it really matters which parent Ben killed. Murdering either one was enough to baptise him in the Dark Side of the Force.

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Human nature. Even law gives priority to the mum versus the dad in custody cases. The importance of your mum who nurture you cannot be overlooked. That's why parents who leave for work overseas are mostly male. The burden of care is on the mother while the financial responsibility is mostly on the father.

Also, Leia also has the force. Han doesn't. Killing Han who cannot understand the power within him for me is easier than killing Leia who also knows the force. Both of these reasons in my opinion makes killing Leia more difficult and tormenting than killing Han. Han could just be sperm donor/one night stand and not really the father role that would've help guide him to the right path.

Vader is different than Ben. Windu vs Palpatine is easy for Anakin as he wants to acquire power that will prevent the death of Padme that he has foreseen. He is easily seduced by that power. After losing his mum, he doesn't want Padme to die as well.

But hey, that's just my opinion. :)

So after watching it a second time, I heard "Rey, these are your first steps." but didn't hear Yoda or young Obi-Wan.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

But yeah, I don't think it really matters which parent Ben killed. Murdering either one was enough to baptise him in the Dark Side of the Force.

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I highly doubt that will be the direction they take with Kylo. The whole thing seems set up to torment him further rather than cement his turn to the Dark Side. Rey calling him a monster, him banging on his wounds mid-battle, his clear hesitancy in the moment... it's all designed to actually make him question his actions and motivation further rather than bringing him deeper to the Dark Side. He may not realise that yet, but he's closer to the Light than he's ever been, not deeper in the Dark, and I expect that's the direction he'll take in the next two parts.

He seems set up to be almost the anti-Vader, or at least the antidote to Vader, in that Vader was steeped in darkness until it was almost too late. I think Kylo will realise what he has to do much sooner and actually find his redemption rather than remaining evil to almost the end. You can see it in his character which resembles Anakin's in the prequels rather than Vader's in the OT; for want of a better word, he's emo, quite entitled, and deeply conflicted. I quite liked his twisted morality; whereas Vader was always trying to seduce Luke with the power of the Dark Side, Kylo is being "seduced" (so he sees it) by the power of the Light Side. His biggest moment is actually yet to come in this series.