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I think kylo had a warped perspective when it came to granddaddy Darth 😜Quote:
Originally Posted by Verno
Whilst he was Darth he was on the right path of evil (a good thing in kylo's mind) then when he saw the light (or dark if you will in kylo's opinion) at the end of rotj kylo saw him lose sight of his rightful purpose.
Darth was corrupted by the light side of the force
Hence the whole 'I will finish what you have started'
↑Fair point :)
:eek: Umm... 'kay... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcomp
Terran laws and precedents don't necessarily apply to alien civilisations set in a galaxy far, far away. I can think of no canonical evidence that supports your assertions in the Star Wars universe. So let's just stick with what we know is true in Star Wars according to what canonical evidence exists from the films.
First of all, Han does have the Force. All living things are attuned to the Force. Force Users are merely special individuals with an unusuallyQuote:
Originally Posted by jazzcomp
high Midichlorian count in their blood^heightened sensitivity to the Force. And just because Han isn't Force sensitive doesn't mean that Ben would love him any less. Shmi Skywalker wasn't Force sensitive, but Anakin Skywalker always loved her. In the absence of any canonical evidence to the contrary, I think that it is reasonable to assume that Han was an equally loving parent to Ben as Leia was. Leia did say that perhaps giving Ben away to Luke for training (and thus separating themselves from Ben) might've been a mistake, but she used plural first person pronouns, which means that they were both equally guilty of this. It was words to the effect of, "We should never have..."; this implies that if Ben is going to hold a grudge against one parent, he would also hold it against the other. Furthermore, if Ben had a biased love towards his mother over his father, then surely Leia would've volunteered to go and get Ben back from Starkiller base instead of letting Han do it alone. Or if she was urgently needed at the Resistance Base, she would at least instruct Han to call her and let her speak with Ben should he find him.
And Han would not have been a one night stand who knocked up Leia and then buggered off. Han and Leia had a massive romance in The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi where Leia risked her life to save Han from Jabba the Hutt. The Force Awakens states that the relationship between Han, Leia and Ben didn't fall apart until after Ben became Kylo Ren and destroyed Luke's New Jedi Order. Ren wouldn't be emotionally conflicted over killing Han if he were such a bad father. You could tell that they both still loved each other, which made Ren's act of murdering him so difficult.
I wouldn't describe Anakin's fall the Dark Side as "easy." It took Palpatine years to groom Anakin from childhood, and even then, more years to continue to seduce him to the Dark Side. Anakin already had several tastes of the Dark Side before, but still always managed to return to the light. The two major incidents that we saw from the film were:Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcomp
1/ Committing genocide on the Tusken Raiders. While it was a horrible act, Anakin soon regretted his actions as he broken down and wept in front of Padmé. The anguish that he felt showed that he was still a good man who recognised that he had done a horrible thing ("I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this.") Anakin told Palpatine about this incident, which he then would've used to further groom him (e.g. telling Anakin that it was the right thing to do).
2/ Executing Count Dooku. Dooku was a defeated and captured prisoner of war. He should have been arrested in order to stand trial, but Anakin beheaded him (thanks to being goaded by Palpy). But again, Anakin still refused to fall the Dark Side, as he immediately lamented his actions ("I shouldn't have done that. It's not the Jedi way."). And of course, Anakin never tells anyone except for Palpatine about these atrocities that he committed because he's ashamed.
When Windu and Palpatine are fighting, Anakin spends a long time standing there watching them fight. He is conflicted and doesn't know who to help. His mind is telling him to help Master Windu, but his heart is telling him to help Palpatine. Both Windu and Palpatine know that Anakin is conflicted, and both try to coerce Anakin; Windu telling him that Palpatine is too dangerous to be left alive because he controls the courts (which was true!), and Palpatine seducing Anakin with the promise of more power. Of course Anakin chooses power in the end, but it wasn't a quick decision. If it were 'easy' for Anakin, he would never have let Windu touch Palpatine in the first place. Heck, he probably would never have dobbed Palpatine into the Jedi either.
:rolleyes: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
This is stretching it a bit much but you aren't getting the point. ;)Quote:
First of all, Han does have the Force. All living things are attuned to the Force. Force Users are merely special individuals with an unusuallyhigh Midichlorian count in their blood^heightened sensitivity to the Force. And just because Han isn't Force sensitive doesn't mean that Ben would love him any less.
You are missing the point that there was no Dad in the picture. This is default. It's not because she isn't force sensitive. Two totally different situations.Quote:
Shmi Skywalker wasn't Force sensitive, but Anakin Skywalker always loved her.
Han left to become a smuggler during Ben's conflicted time. At least Leia had responsibilities to the republic/rebels as a valid excuse to not be there for Kylo when he was conflicted. There's no evidence either way so it isn't reasonable to assume either way. Being both equally at fault just means that they do not blame what the other did even if each thinking that he/she is more at fault. Guilt/blame doesn't really help their situation so it was pointless to focus on that.Quote:
In the absence of any canonical evidence to the contrary, I think that it is reasonable to assume that Han was an equally loving parent to Ben as Leia was. Leia did say that perhaps giving Ben away to Luke for training (and thus separating themselves from Ben) might've been a mistake, but she used plural first person pronouns, which means that they were both equally guilty of this. It was words to the effect of, "We should never have..."; this implies that if Ben is going to hold a grudge against one parent, he would also hold it against the other.
If you say so :rolleyes: and if you think that a call is equivalent to being there.Quote:
Furthermore, if Ben had a biased love towards his mother over his father, then surely Leia would've volunteered to go and get Ben back from Starkiller base instead of letting Han do it alone. Or if she was urgently needed at the Resistance Base, she would at least instruct Han to call her and let her speak with Ben should he find him.
Still not getting it? :rolleyes: I just meant that his role in guiding Ben is lacking as he doesn't know what it's truly like to have that kind of power. Han couldn't teach Ben as he isn't "Force sensitive". Expanding the extent of their romantic relationship isn't the point. You can always love someone but not be there for them. Han didn't want to come home to Leia.Quote:
And Han would not have been a one night stand who knocked up Leia and then buggered off. Han and Leia had a massive romance in The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi where Leia risked her life to save Han from Jabba the Hutt. The Force Awakens states that the relationship between Han, Leia and Ben didn't fall apart until after Ben became Kylo Ren and destroyed Luke's New Jedi Order. Ren wouldn't be emotionally conflicted over killing Han if he were such a bad father. You could tell that they both still loved each other, which made Ren's act of murdering him so difficult.
You didn't get the point. The comparison is choosing to kill your parent versus a head Jedi. I said it would be "easier" to kill Windu than it is to kill your own flesh and blood just so that you can have "power".Quote:
Of course Anakin chooses power in the end, but it wasn't a quick decision. If it were 'easy' for Anakin, he would never have let Windu touch Palpatine in the first place. Heck, he probably would never have dobbed Palpatine into the Jedi either.
I'll end this here before it goes into a further long winded sidetracked discussion. :cool:
Can someone please tell me what Obi-Wan and Yoda say during the vision.
Ben (Old Obi-Wan) Rey... these are your first steps
Obi-Wan ???
Yoda ???
Also, imagine if Anakin had helped Master Windu...
Though in your opinion Leia isnt his mother, so why would the effect be anymore than Han's?Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcomp
And if that theory is true, the reveal in a later movie would become rather ridiculed.
"I have taken my final steps into darkness, towards the darkside and ultima..."
"oh... he wasn't actually your dad."
"ok... kinda a pointless act then really."
You could argue Ren didnt know, so the act should still mean something, but that's a massive stretch!
I finally worked out what was missing from this film. COMMANDER RIKER.
Valvoline, you know what I mean.
What? :eek: Can you read again? :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by XMan
I like Kylo's lightsaber
I guess I'm still old school. :) I prefer the older style saber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnertwin