The Great War - What's it all for?

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Originally Posted by Hursticon

Hehehe - It's all in the Techspec. :p:D

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Ignorance is a bliss :p (No...I actually want to shoot myself in the mouth and flush the remains of my body down the toilet :( )


Better shut up on things I don't know and talk about what I do know (and know very well): the origins in the new movie line.


Yes it's the Allspark, and no, it's not the Allspark.

Allspark gave life to the first Primes. They be the ancestors of all Cybertronians. We all know the story of the Fallen and his Prime brothers and the Matrix of Leadership. So those Primes died, Fallen allegedly slaughtered every descendant of the Primes on Cybertron save for one orphan who was hidden away. That orphan be named Optimus.

And I have been unable to find out from the stories how did Sentinel Prime survived that holocaust. It wasn't told (as far as I see it's obviously a logical hole; they changed writers between ROTF and DOTM and somehow the new guys must have forgotten partly what was told before, or deliberately chose to ignore it). Anyway Sentinel found the hidden Optimus and brought him up, together with Megatron. They two be his equally best students and faithful followers. Sentinel managed to capture a sun and secure its orbit around Cybertron, thereby powering Allspark for generation of energon to feed the starving planet. This has secured Sentinel's place as sole leader of the Cybertronians, who then were divided only by tribes and no political allegiances. Cybertron's entered into an era know as The Golden Age.

Another obvious logical defect here is that no one knows where the Fallen was and what he's doing during this Cybertronian Gold Age under leadership of Sentinel. It was revealed that he was in captivity in another world, which doesn't make any sense seeing he's just carried out a massacre before everything ever started and with only two Primes survived (one of which obviously a hatchling back then), no one would ever have the power to defeat him and put him into captivity anyway.

The Golden Age ended when Sentinel decided it's time to retire. He chose Optimus to be the new leader as he believed they share the same blood lineage (believed Optimus to be born a Prime). Optimus rejected this unearned power whereas Megatron, overheard their conversation, got jealous and thought Optimus's refusal was a sign of his weakness and ineptitude. Sentinel retired splitting power equally between his two students, with Optimus in charge of science and history, and Megatron in charge of the defence force (how on earth is that ever considered equal I'll never understand).

Naturally Megatron took full advantage of his power, gradually turned the entire defence force into his own army. Meanwhile Optimus was too preoccupied with his scientific research and archaeological excavate (and too trustful in Megatron) to pay attention to the silent change in his power. Optimus's excavate achieved breakthrough when he reached the geological layer of the Prime's era, and uncovered an intact plate with a Decepticon badge on it. Megatron took possession of the plate, later found out it was a gateway of communication between him and the Fallen. The Fallen thereby took command of Megatron, promising him of unprecedented power should he succeed in erasing out Optimus and his followers and the human race on earth. At the same time, Optimus has came to the conclusion based on his archaeological evidence that he was indeed a descendant of the Primes.

Sentinel during this time, as Optimus wishfully believed, was enjoying his retirement, away from all Megatron's scheme, whereas in fact he had secretly formed alliance with Megatron, deeming Optimus unfit to lead, all of which lead to his later act of betrayal on Prime.

The First Gunshot at Lexington for the Great Cybertronian War officially took place when Megatron ordered Prowl and Bumblebee to arrest Optimus and his fellow bots of science on charge of treason because Optimus "broke into" his quarters to check out the plate while he was away on an invasion battle. Starscream set ambush on the autobots en route but was defeated by Optimus, who lead his crew (together with Prowl and Bumblebee) to successfully break the siege and got away. It was from there that Optimus openly announced himself as Optimus Prime and officially assumed leadership of the autobots as he deemed himself "earned" the power.

The rest of the story, we all pretty much know (unless you haven't watched any of the 3 movies). The Allspark in essence served no more than an excuse/mean of war as it represented power and control over the people. But in the very beginning, the origin of the war was more like a "sibling contest" between Optimus and Megatron, evolving finally into a war under Megatron's jealousy of Prime and ever growing thirst of power.

Yes it's lengthy...I trust I haven't missed any logically material details.

Movie origin was IMO one of the best TF stories ever written, regardless of its logical flaws, as it explores a deeper and more conflicting humanity running inside the main TF characters, making them more real and closer to feelings. Classic G1 is appealing as well but way too naive in story (after all I started watching them when I'm already in my late 20s).

And my comparison is drawn on my own TF knowledge library that consists of three new movies (together with their complete prequels and sequels and everything else related), the first five Madman G1 episodes, the 1986 movie, random bits and pieces of IDW's new publications and zero anything else.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Allspark gave life to the first Primes.

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Affirmative, as a sacred implement executing Primus' will. Other examples of sacred implements are the Creation Matrix and Vector Sigma. But ultimately all Transformer life and the creation of Cybertron across every universe stems from Primus - either through direct or indirect creation. In the movie universe it appears to be indirect.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

They be the ancestors of all Cybertronians.

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Negative. The first Primes are not the ancestors of all Cybertronians, only ancestors of the Primes, like Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime. Remember that in every continuity, there were 13 original Transformers created by Primus (directly or indirectly). Revenge of the Fallen stated that there were 7 Primes among the original creations, thus we can deduce that the remaining 6 of the Original 13 were not Primes, and other non-Prime Transformers would have been descendant from them.

This makes sense to me, because if EVERY Transformer was descendant from a Prime, then wouldn't they all be Primes? (Skidimus Prime and Mudflapimus Prime?? No thanks...) Even though Optimus and Megatron were of equal status as co-rulers of Cybertron during the age of unification, only Optimus was entitled to be called "Prime" because only he was a descendant of the Prime lineage (although Optimus initially declined accepting the Prime title, much to Megatron's frustration).

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Originally Posted by Arcee

We all know the story of the Fallen and his Prime brothers and the Matrix of Leadership. So those Primes died, Fallen allegedly slaughtered every descendant of the Primes on Cybertron save for one orphan who was hidden away. That orphan be named Optimus.

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Negative. Optimus did not exist during such an ancient time in Cybertron's history. The Primes are Optimus' ancestors, not his brothers.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

And I have been unable to find out from the stories how did Sentinel Prime survived that holocaust. It wasn't told (as far as I see it's obviously a logical hole; they changed writers between ROTF and DOTM and somehow the new guys must have forgotten partly what was told before, or deliberately chose to ignore it).

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Negative, Sentinel Prime isn't that ancient either. Although he is far more ancient than Optimus Prime, he is still also a descendant of the Primes.

Remember that the original 7 Primes also can't transform (e.g. The Fallen never transforms in the movie). In the movie continuity the ability to transform was something that the Original Transformers - well okay, let's call them Cybertronians - built into their creations like their workers and Seekers etc.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Anyway Sentinel found the hidden Optimus and brought him up, together with Megatron.

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I don't recall that ever happening.

Sentinel did mentor Optimus and Megatron together - and indeed when it was later discovered that Optimus was a Prime, it planted seeds of anger and jealousy in Megatron which led him to secretly follow a new master - the Fallen.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

They two be his equally best students and faithful followers. Sentinel managed to capture a sun and secure its orbit around Cybertron, thereby powering Allspark for generation of energon to feed the starving planet. This has secured Sentinel's place as sole leader of the Cybertronians, who then were divided only by tribes and no political allegiances. Cybertron's entered into an era know as The Golden Age.

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It was Sentinel Prime and Wheeljack who transported a sun to Cybertron and harvested its energy. Optimus Prime and Megatron and their followers located the AllSpark before then.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Another obvious logical defect here is that no one knows where the Fallen was and what he's doing during this Cybertronian Gold Age under leadership of Sentinel. It was revealed that he was in captivity in another world, which doesn't make any sense seeing he's just carried out a massacre before everything ever started and with only two Primes survived (one of which obviously a hatchling back then), no one would ever have the power to defeat him and put him into captivity anyway.

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Again, Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime weren't around when the Fallen was placed in the Phantom Zone^his sarcophagus.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

(how on earth is that ever considered equal I'll never understand).

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Optimus Prime was in charge of furthering the Transformers' knowledge and Megatron was in charge of defending Cybertron... they probably had to confer for major executive decisions - this would explain why Megatron requested Optimus to give him supreme executive authority (in Foundation #2); Optimus obliged and that's when Megatron granted himself the title of "Lord High Protector" and outranked Optimus (breaking the balance of power).

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Movie origin was IMO one of the best TF stories ever written, regardless of its logical flaws, as it explores a deeper and more conflicting humanity running inside the main TF characters, making them more real and closer to feelings. Classic G1 is appealing as well but way too naive in story (after all I started watching them when I'm already in my late 20s)

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I prefer G1, which - to put it very shortly, worked like this:

+ Primus directly creates Cybertron and the original 13 Transformers to combat Unicron. He grants the original 13 Transformers the ability to transform, mimicking Unicron's own ability.
+ Primus imbues a portion of his life essence into a sacred vessel known as the Creation Matrix. In the cartoon continuity Primus' will is executed by another sacred implement known as Vector Sigma
+ The Transformers establish city-states and establishes their capital at Iacon.
+ A group of gladiators arises -- those who survive the Vos-Tarn War are united by Megatron and call themselves Decepticons. Thus they begin a plan to expand and conquer.
+ One by one Cybertron's city-states fall to the expanding Decepticon empire. Sentinel Prime is slain in battle and passes the Matrix to Optimus Prime.
+ High Councillor Traachon vetoes himself out of office - the Autobot Council of Elders steps down and gives supreme executive authority to Optimus Prime. For the first time ever, supreme command of the Autobots now rests in the hands of a soldier and not politicians who had never seen battle. Under Optimus Prime's leadership, the tide of battle turns. Iacon never falls into Decepticon hands and formerly conquered city-states are liberated by the Autobots' under Prime's command.
+ Optimus Prime leads a group of Autobots aboard the Ark - they are intercepted by Decepticons and accidentally crash on Earth.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

+ High Councillor Traachon vetoes himself out of office - the Autobot Council of Elders steps down and gives supreme executive authority to Optimus Prime. For the first time ever, supreme command of the Autobots now rests in the hands of a soldier and not politicians who had never seen battle.

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Would you consider this to be the point that The Great War began? Or when they awaken from the Ark, as Blackarachnia states?

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Negative. The first Primes are not the ancestors of all Cybertronians, only ancestors of the Primes, like Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime. Remember that in every continuity, there were 13 original Transformers created by Primus (directly or indirectly). Revenge of the Fallen stated that there were 7 Primes among the original creations, thus we can deduce that the remaining 6 of the Original 13 were not Primes, and other non-Prime Transformers would have been descendant from them.

This makes sense to me, because if EVERY Transformer was descendant from a Prime, then wouldn't they all be Primes? (Skidimus Prime and Mudflapimus Prime?? No thanks...) Even though Optimus and Megatron were of equal status as co-rulers of Cybertron during the age of unification, only Optimus was entitled to be called "Prime" because only he was a descendant of the Prime lineage (although Optimus initially declined accepting the Prime title, much to Megatron's frustration).

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My mistake. Yes that's actually what I think, somehow I don't know why I typed that, woops.

Foundation #2: Optimus's telling of the old Cybertron myth:

"I knew the legend of the Allspark. When the cube crashed into Cybertron, it gave the spark of life to Primus, and his descendants...the Primes.

"Then, the stories go, the Allspark provided the Primes with a workforce of Transformers -- life forms capable of changing their shapes."

It was stated to be 13 original Primes in ROTF Movie Adaptation but somehow the actual movie came out as 7.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Negative. Optimus did not exist during such an ancient time in Cybertron's history. The Primes are Optimus' ancestors, not his brothers.

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ROTF Movie Adaptation #3: Jetfire was telling Sam the stories of the Fallen. He said:

"Only a Prime can stand against the Fallen. The war on Cybertron destroyed the Prime Dynasty. All were slaughtered save one. An orphan, hidden away, ignorant of his destiny..."

Sam said: "Optimus Prime."

Jetfire: "You know him?"

......

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Negative, Sentinel Prime isn't that ancient either. Although he is far more ancient than Optimus Prime, he is still also a descendant of the Primes.

Remember that the original 7 Primes also can't transform (e.g. The Fallen never transforms in the movie). In the movie continuity the ability to transform was something that the Original Transformers - well okay, let's call them Cybertronians - built into their creations like their workers and Seekers etc.

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My doubt is more on how Sentinel Prime could be there in the first place, seeing that the Fallen has already slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who is not Sentinel or Sentinel's antecessor...

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I don't recall that ever happening.

Sentinel did mentor Optimus and Megatron together - and indeed when it was later discovered that Optimus was a Prime, it planted seeds of anger and jealousy in Megatron which led him to secretly follow a new master - the Fallen.

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Foundation #2: Optimus telling his memory: "When Sentinel Prime found me -- alone and hidden -- he brought me into his home and told me these legends."

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

It was Sentinel Prime and Wheeljack who transported a sun to Cybertron and harvested its energy. Optimus Prime and Megatron and their followers located the AllSpark before then.

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Concurred. I didn't want to bother with that much detail but...yes, this way it's more accurate.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Again, Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime weren't around when the Fallen was placed in the Phantom Zone^his sarcophagus.

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My doubt here: if the Fallen has slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who had the ability to place him in his "sarcophagus" then?

Remember in Tales of the Fallen #4, the Fallen was killing his Prime brothers on earth in order to seize the Matrix. He's successfully killed all but one; that last Prime jumped around on teleportation to gather "the sum total of The Dynasty, the entirety of their lifeforce" and thereby gave the Fallen a last blow to "banish him forever". The Fallen crash landed on what looks like an icy frozen planet far away and swore revenge.

Having successfully "banished" the Fallen, what happened to this one last Prime according to Jetfire's account in ROTF Movie Adaptation #3:

"He (the Fallen) butchered his brother Primes, until only one remained. The last of the twelve sealed the Matrix in a tomb constructed of their remains, fusing it shut with his own life essence."

Which means he, being the last Prime, died. So who was there left to later put the Fallen away to his sarcophagus?

Looks like there is only one plausible explanation here:

This last Prime's last blow was actually what sent the Fallen directly into his sarcophagus. There he remained in captivity until Megatron found him through the plate. And because he had already killed the 11 Primes, with the last Prime sacrificed himself to seal away the Matrix, all Primes have been "slaughtered" -- save for Optimus orphan who was hidden on Cybertron at that time.

But then there still remains questions:

- Who gave life to Sentinel Prime? and

- In Defiance #3 Optimus's excavate got to the layer of the Prime Dynasty, and found every artifact in pieces save one, which was the decepticon plate taken away by Megatron.

Optimus: "I wonder why there was only one intact."

Ratchet: "I think the broken ones were deliberatedly smashed."

Question: if the Fallen's already in captivity, who smashed everything of the Primes back to the end of the Prime Dynasty?

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Optimus Prime was in charge of furthering the Transformers' knowledge and Megatron was in charge of defending Cybertron... they probably had to confer for major executive decisions - this would explain why Megatron requested Optimus to give him supreme executive authority (in Foundation #2); Optimus obliged and that's when Megatron granted himself the title of "Lord High Protector" and outranked Optimus (breaking the balance of power).

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I was being too politically worldly...was just thinking that this allocation of powers actually caused the later inevitable breaking of balance, by entrusting the full military force into the exclusive hands of one man in the very beginning.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I prefer G1, which - to put it very shortly, worked like this:

+ Primus directly creates Cybertron and the original 13 Transformers to combat Unicron. He grants the original 13 Transformers the ability to transform, mimicking Unicron's own ability.

+ Primus imbues a portion of his life essence into a sacred vessel known as the Creation Matrix. In the cartoon continuity Primus' will is executed by another sacred implement known as Vector Sigma

+ The Transformers establish city-states and establishes their capital at Iacon.

+ A group of gladiators arises -- those who survive the Vos-Tarn War are united by Megatron and call themselves Decepticons. Thus they begin a plan to expand and conquer.

+ One by one Cybertron's city-states fall to the expanding Decepticon empire. Sentinel Prime is slain in battle and passes the Matrix to Optimus Prime.

+ High Councillor Traachon vetoes himself out of office - the Autobot Council of Elders steps down and gives supreme executive authority to Optimus Prime. For the first time ever, supreme command of the Autobots now rests in the hands of a soldier and not politicians who had never seen battle. Under Optimus Prime's leadership, the tide of battle turns. Iacon never falls into Decepticon hands and formerly conquered city-states are liberated by the Autobots' under Prime's command.

+ Optimus Prime leads a group of Autobots aboard the Ark - they are intercepted by Decepticons and accidentally crash on Earth.

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Is this the story line of the Madman G1 cartoon, or the Marvel comics, or the UK version, or something else? I know I've only watched 5 episodes of the Madman series and probably know only a tip of the iceberg but based on the tip I've studies so far it goes as simple as:

Evil decepticons and the valiant autobots, war over energon, crash landing on earth, four millions years ago...

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Is this the story line of the Madman G1 cartoon, or the Marvel comics, or the UK version, or something else?

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Goktimus is mostly referencing the UK Marvel comics, except for the "accidental" part... The driving motivation for Optimus Prime in the comic is that the crash on earth was explicitly "not" accidental.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

I know I've only watched 5 episodes of the Madman series and probably know only a tip of the iceberg but based on the tip I've studies so far it goes as simple as: Evil decepticons and the valiant autobots, war over energon, crash landing on earth, four millions years ago...

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This is the best way to describe the G1 origin as it's simple and pretty true for nearly all G1 style universes (except IDW).

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Originally Posted by tinyJazz

Prowl, what's got into you? Aren't you an Autobot? :(

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I am a cop so I work for whoever is in power.

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Originally Posted by Hursticon

No no, he's just had the Autobot wool taken away from his eyes... ;):D

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I saw through Prime & his megalomania. He was prepared to destroy Cybertron to further his aims. Megatron like Fox news is fair & balanced.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Awesome story by the way Prowl. Really made my day. I'm sure Prime now regrets and wants you back.:p Megatron is very pleased and wants you on board too. If you are to choose side, beware of a spy called Hursticon, sly and evil in every sense but very amiable on the surface.:D:D

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Prime can suck my exhaust. Megatron buys me energon drinks & has said he will teach me to fly. WTF is Prime gonna do? Make me help that little bastard Witwicky get into Carly's pants because he needs a cool ride.

F**k it Prime will get his little lapdog Bumblebee (he got his name because he f**ks up all the time) to help him put the moves on Carly. I feel like smashing bee's gearbox in.

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Originally Posted by Prowl

Megatron like Fox news is fair & balanced.

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Awesome analogy

Wow, um, best cool your heels their Prowl, a Mod might not take too kindly to all that.

So, for the most part, it was for control of Cybertron?

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Originally Posted by Hursticon

Hmm, see, I've grown over time to dislike the whole 'Programming' approach; mainly on the basis that a computer system is unable to operate outside of the parameters it's programming software dictates and hence IMO the Autobots would never rise to arms and the Decepticons would would never start firing upon civilian and their own supply vehicles. :o
(I too subscribed to the consumer goods approach for the longest time, I've since learnt there is so much more than... ;))

With all that being said though, one could argue the point of 'Alien Sentience' but I guess one could also look at how far/deep the programming actually goes baring in mind the Spark. :cool:

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The Odieverse uses an (Un)Intelligent Design approach whereby the slumbering Primus causes the Quintessons to create the pre-Transformers and bestow them with emotions etc., which neatly covers this and a bunch more stuff. As far as the G1 'toon goes it's easier not to think about it too deeply and for the shallow explanations they offered programming coupled with advanced Cybertronian processors suffices. I like it for it's simplicity but it is kinda limited - the Odieverse backstory irons out a lot of loose ends and draws together quite a few other bits and pieces of the whole TF mythos.
More importantly, where does Optimus Prime's trailer go when he transforms to robot mode?:p

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Originally Posted by Verno

Would you consider this to be the point that The Great War began? Or when they awaken from the Ark, as Blackarachnia states?

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The Great War began when the Decepticons started attacking the Autobots. In the G1 cartoon the war started when Megatron led a group of Decepticons to steal Energon and one of the casualties of that attack was a worker named Orion Pax... who of course was rebuilt as Optimus Prime. ;) David Wise thought it'd be cool if the first shot fired that started the war resulted in the "birth" of Optimus Prime.

Blackarachnia's knowledge of Cybertronian history isn't entirely accurate anyway - for instance, if you watch her flashback the Decepticon crew of the Nemesis never board the Ark and attack the Autobots from the inside, instead we see the Nemesis firing upon the Ark -- much like the fight that brought down the Axalon and Darksyde. But this was inaccurate because as soon as Megatron entered the Ark we see Autobots and Decepticons lying about in stasis - just as in G1. And of course, Megatron later broke into the Ark to abduct G1 Megatron's Spark from G1 Megatron's body inside the Ark, and not the Nemesis.

Blackarachnia: "I'm a saboteur, not a historian!"
All right all right, calm your web... ;)

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Foundation #2: Optimus's telling of the old Cybertron myth:

"I knew the legend of the Allspark. When the cube crashed into Cybertron, it gave the spark of life to Primus, and his descendants...the Primes.

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It may have referred to the first Cybertronian being created as being called Primus, but not necessarily the god Primus. Primus as a god was created by the universal source - and Primus is a multiversal singularity, so this must hold true in all TF continuities.

As you said, the story is a myth so it's hard to know exactly how much of it is valid. After all, in G1 even Primus himself was thought to be a myth for a long time, and Cybertronians stopped believing in him until Bumblebee, Jazz, Grimlock, Red Hot, Seawatch, Fixit and Stakeout were accidentally transported to Primus' chamber deep within Cybertron!

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Originally Posted by Arcee

"Then, the stories go, the Allspark provided the Primes with a workforce of Transformers -- life forms capable of changing their shapes."

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Yup. This the original Primes (and possibly the other 6 original Cybertronians) themselves were unable to transform, but subsequent Cybertronians created to serve them were able to transform. That would also explain why the Fallen never transforms in Revenge of the Fallen.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

It was stated to be 13 original Primes in ROTF Movie Adaptation but somehow the actual movie came out as 7.

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Yep, thus it is officially 7 Primes, irrespective of what predating versions may have stated (because the film would have retconned the 13 as 7, thus rendering the 13 Primes origin as incorrect). The film retcon makes more sense too IMO, cos otherwise as I said, if EVERY Transformer were descendant from a Prime, then they would all be Primes and not just Optimus! Cos otherwise it'd be like...

Optimus: "Hey guys guess what? I found the Mark of the Primes on my left ear! It means I'm a descendant of the Dynasty of the Primes! Now I'm Optimus Prime!"

Ironhide: "Good for you. I have the same Mark on my left butt cheek. Call me Ironhidimus Prime."

Wheelie: "An' I gots the same Mark on my crotch! Cawl me Crotchimus Prime!"

Optimus: "Why not Wheelimus Prime?"

Wheelie: "Cos dat'd be stoopid, stoopid!"

Optimus: "......."

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Originally Posted by Arcee

ROTF Movie Adaptation #3: Jetfire was telling Sam the stories of the Fallen. He said:

"Only a Prime can stand against the Fallen. The war on Cybertron destroyed the Prime Dynasty. All were slaughtered save one. An orphan, hidden away, ignorant of his destiny..."

Sam said: "Optimus Prime."

Jetfire: "You know him?"

......

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Damnit...

Okay, I'd say that orphan was probably Sentinel Prime - he might have been ignorant of his destiny at first, then later found out about it - just like Optimus. After all, if he grew up with no other Primes around, then it's possible.

Reasons to support this:
+ Sentinel Prime can transform, unlike the original 7 Primes.
+ The original 7 Primes all died, save for the one who became the Fallen - who eventually died from shame (loss of face ;)).

It's possible that Jetfire never knew the name of this orphan and so when Sam mentioned "Optimus Prime" he may have assumed that it was that orphan whereas in fact he is the orphan's descendant.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

My doubt is more on how Sentinel Prime could be there in the first place, seeing that the Fallen has already slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who is not Sentinel or Sentinel's antecessor...

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That's why I like to believe that the orphan may have been Sentinel Prime.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Foundation #2: Optimus telling his memory: "When Sentinel Prime found me -- alone and hidden -- he brought me into his home and told me these legends."

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Again, this doesn't contradict my theory. Optimus may have been a "lost boy" which Sentinel later found and nurtured...

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Originally Posted by Arcee

My doubt here: if the Fallen has slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who had the ability to place him in his "sarcophagus" then?

Remember in Tales of the Fallen #4, the Fallen was killing his Prime brothers on earth in order to seize the Matrix. He's successfully killed all but one; that last Prime jumped around on teleportation to gather "the sum total of The Dynasty, the entirety of their lifeforce" and thereby gave the Fallen a last blow to "banish him forever". The Fallen crash landed on what looks like an icy frozen planet far away and swore revenge.

Having successfully "banished" the Fallen, what happened to this one last Prime according to Jetfire's account in ROTF Movie Adaptation #3:

"He (the Fallen) butchered his brother Primes, until only one remained. The last of the twelve sealed the Matrix in a tomb constructed of their remains, fusing it shut with his own life essence."

Which means he, being the last Prime, died. So who was there left to later put the Fallen away to his sarcophagus?

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The Fallen was already banished just before the last Prime sacrificed himself to create the Tomb of the Primes.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

- Who gave life to Sentinel Prime? and

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Sentinel as the orphan would explain this.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Optimus: "I wonder why there was only one intact."

Ratchet: "I think the broken ones were deliberatedly smashed."

Question: if the Fallen's already in captivity, who smashed everything of the Primes back to the end of the Prime Dynasty?

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I thought Megatron smashed them after he took the Fallen's sarcophagus. <shrug>

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Originally Posted by Arcee

Is this the story line of the Madman G1 cartoon, or the Marvel comics, or the UK version, or something else?

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Like Paulbot said. Also, the G1 cartoons were made by Sunbow, not Madman. Madman merely distributed the series here in Australia - and even then their episodes were copied off another DVD company called Rhino.

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Originally Posted by Arcee

I know I've only watched 5 episodes of the Madman series and probably know only a tip of the iceberg but based on the tip I've studies so far it goes as simple as:

Evil decepticons and the valiant autobots, war over energon, crash landing on earth, four millions years ago...

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A rather simplistic but otherwise accurate summary. But you were saying that the movie origin story "is one of the best TF stories ever written despite its logical flaws" -- I personally don't think it's as well structured as the G1 comic origin story(stories) and in terms of overall writing, I find the G1 comics and Beast Wars to be better written anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

More importantly, where does Optimus Prime's trailer go when he transforms to robot mode?:p

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Years ago there was a photocomic printed in ToyFare magazine that explained this...
* Image of Prime's Trailer lifting weights at the gym
* Image of Prime's Trailer crowd surfing at a baseball game
* Image of Prime's Trailer and He-Man throwing dollar bills at pole-dancing strippers
...so now you know.