griffin's T3 (Total Transformers Toy) checklist/counting method.

Based on a plain objective method for counting toys as products, I agree with your system, Griffin. I also agree with your emphasis that this is not intended to take the fun or magic out of the figures, but rather catalogue them in a uniform way for comparison purposes only.

For example, we can't have "Jedi" as a religion in our census because the comparison data falls down and the answer does not assist the intended purpose of the census. In the same way, character / fiction / tech spec based counting does not assist a count or "census" of Transformer toys, for the purpose of such a census only.

For many of us this will mean 2 systems (our own preferred and the objective method discussed here). Naturally, there is no pressure or need for anyone to participate, unless they want to, as we simply end up with a number for objective, clinical comparison purposes. The end numbers should in no way detract from anyone's enjoyment of their collection or make them feel superior or inferior to another collector. As has been said before, it is not the size of the collection that counts, it is how you feel about it.

Thanks for the idea Griffin. You have my full support (although I do NOT look forward to going through my collection to re-count!!! :o )

In the end, these alternative counting methods are probably just moot anyway, as most will either prefer to just stick to their own counting method when asked to compare, or just don't have the time and patience to recount their collection to get a second comparable count.

I'm just sharing my current counting method, which is toy-based and not character-based, or fan-opinion-based. I don't expect anyone to adopt it or use it, but it's out there now as another counting method alongside the existing ones.
It will also allow others to see how I arrive at the collection count figure I will refer to, or sometimes have in my signature.

I do want to make it completely clear though, that this is just *another* counting method option, it isn't meant to replace any of the existing methods that are out there.
At the beginning of 2008 when we had that topic about your best and worst of 2007, or what you got for the year... I started tabulating two figures for my collection - figures that counted (mostly convertable figures) and items that I had felt didn't count (non-convertable, roleplay, unleashed etc). As the number of non-convertable Transformers toys grew to about 300 by the end of 2008, it was just too much of a hassle keeping track of essentially 'two collections'. I have one collection, and need one figure to reflect that.

It just didn't seem fair to be buying hundreds of Transformers(tm) Toys that don't convert, and not be able to count them. They are toys, they get played with, and they are Transformers(tm)... so why don't they count in a 'Transformers toy collection'? The Geewunners like me need to realise that toys don't have to be convertable to be released under the brand name of 'Transformers'. And lately, there has been a lot of toy-product sold as Transformers(tm) that don't convert. If it is a toy-product, it is part of a 'toy collection'. And a 'toy count' is obviously incomplete if you don't count all the toys in your possession/collection.

So G1 Blackout only counts as 0.5 of a Transformer (or more accurately, only counts as a Transformer if you also have Spaceshot)?

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Originally Posted by griffin

The larger toy may still be playable without the smaller toy, but if ever sold without the Minicon parter, either loose or in packaging, the larger toy would be classed as incomplete by both seller and buyer. You could easily buy an Armada Optimus without Sparkplug, but the seller would be accused of deception or lying if they claimed it was complete. As a toy product, collectors and Hasbro consider Armada Optimus to be complete if it has Sparkplug. As a fan, it doesn't matter so much, because you treat them as two toys when you play or display them, but as an objective count to compare with others or to poll, the larger toy would be classed as incomplete without its minicon partner. Each item in a multi-pack needs to be mutally exclusive (both independant and not requiring the other to complete it) to count as separate (sellable) 'toy products'.

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But couldn't you say he same about the mini-con 3 packs. Because they are teams. So if you sold 2/3 of them, you would say that the team or set isn't complete.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

So G1 Blackout only counts as 0.5 of a Transformer (or more accurately, only counts as a Transformer if you also have Spaceshot)?

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It is still a playable toy, so it counts as one if you have one or both. If you have one figure, you have an incomplete, playable toy. If you have the second you have a complete playable toy(if you have all the accessories as well). Basically, if you are one of the few who doesn't get some Micromasters in their pairs, it counts as 1 with the first one, and getting the second just completes that 1. You list the pair on your roster/checklist as a single pair, and just note if it is complete or not, based on if you have both figures and their accessories.

The T3 counting method at least identifies each toy by its primary purpose/gimmick, and the *toy* in question is the *jet* called Blackout and Spaceshot, (or even the set packaged as 'Anti-Aircraft Base'). Some toys have the biped mode as its primary purpose, but most prioritise the alt-mode, as seen by how at least 95% of Transformers are packaged in that mode.

No collection count method allows you to count fractions, reguardless of what is missing. You count it as 1 if no other toy on the checklist needs it (Item 3) and is playable as part of the named figure on the checklist (Item 4). Blackout needs Spaceshot to fulfil its purpose as a 'Jet Transformers toy', so can't be counted separately on the checklist.

This method requires fans to resist focussing on the characters, and count them as 'mere toys' when doing a 'toy count'. The jet is the toy that separates into two robots. We wouldn't see either released separately by Hasbro as a toy that only turns into 'half a jet' and nothing else.

Also, while I think of it. One of their marketting tag lines may be 'Robots in Disguise', but dismissing a toy because it doesn't convert into an item of disguise would be like dismissing any toy that isn't 'More than Meets the Eye', because quite a few redecos are quite underwhelming lately...

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Originally Posted by Golden Phoenix

But couldn't you say he same about the mini-con 3 packs. Because they are teams. So if you sold 2/3 of them, you would say that the team or set isn't complete.

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As per Item 3, any multi-pack item that can be (and sometimes is) sold separately, because no other item in the pack needs them to classify them as complete, they count as separate 'toys'. We are counting individual toys, not teams, so 'complete' relates to the individual toys, not the teams.
As mentioned in the last paragraph of the first post, this is a counting method for toys, not packaging. If you have a sealed multi-pack of 3 toys, you own 3 toys. Two just don't magically disappear. You have in your possession as part of your collection, 3 toys, so why not count them as 3 toys? And if you are counting teams as 1 toy, most TFs toys are part of teams, which would make your overall count rather small.
Each Minicon in a 3-pack is it's own playable toy. Just like the Gen1 cassette 2-packs, these would have been sold as 3-packs because it was the smallest price point at the time, and each team was planned to a theme or bonus combining feature. But just like Combiner Teams, these are three toys that combine *in addition* to their primary, individual playability.

As for reselling, if you are selling a Land Military 3-pack, you might describe the set as being 'complete', as a 3-pack, but if you were selling each Minicon separately, you certainly wouldn't be calling Wreckage as 'incomplete' just because it is on its own.
That's how it is easy to differentiate Minicon partners from Minicons in multi-packs - if you try to sell each toy, like on ebay, each multi-pack Minicon can be sold 'complete' on its own, but each partner Minicon is needed to 'complete' the larger figure. If you saw 'Complete Armada Optimus' on ebay, you would expect it comes with Sparkplug. If you saw 'Complete Minicon Wreckage' on ebay, you would only expect Wreckage, as it doesn't need Knock Out and Bonecrusher to complete it. Being part of a team or multi-pack doesn't require it to remain in that 'set combination' to be considered complete. Otherwise, by that logic, things like the Tiger Camo Combaticons (which were never released separately) could only ever be sold 'complete' as a set and only ever count as 1.
And how about the recent Universe Minicon 12-pack? If the individual Minicons can't be counted because they have to be with 11 other Minicons, you would have trouble counting the same toys being released soon individually?

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Originally Posted by griffin

As per Item 3, any multi-pack item that can be (and sometimes is) sold separately, because no other item in the pack needs them to classify them as complete, they count as separate 'toys'. We are counting individual toys, not teams, so 'complete' relates to the individual toys, not the teams.
As mentioned in the last paragraph of the first post, this is a counting method for toys, not packaging. If you have a sealed multi-pack of 3 toys, you own 3 toys. Two just don't magically disappear. You have in your possession as part of your collection, 3 toys, so why not count them as 3 toys? And if you are counting teams as 1 toy, most TFs toys are part of teams, which would make your overall count rather small.
Each Minicon in a 3-pack is it's own playable toy. Just like the Gen1 cassette 2-packs, these would have been sold as 3-packs because it was the smallest price point at the time, and each team was planned to a theme or bonus combining feature. But just like Combiner Teams, these are three toys that combine *in addition* to their primary, individual playability.

As for reselling, if you are selling a Land Military 3-pack, you might describe the set as being 'complete', as a 3-pack, but if you were selling each Minicon separately, you certainly wouldn't be calling Wreckage as 'incomplete' just because it is on its own.
That's how it is easy to differentiate Minicon partners from Minicons in multi-packs - if you try to sell each toy, like on ebay, each multi-pack Minicon can be sold 'complete' on its own, but each partner Minicon is needed to 'complete' the larger figure. If you saw 'Complete Armada Optimus' on ebay, you would expect it comes with Sparkplug. If you saw 'Complete Minicon Wreckage' on ebay, you would only expect Wreckage, as it doesn't need Knock Out and Bonecrusher to complete it. Being part of a team or multi-pack doesn't require it to remain in that 'set combination' to be considered complete. Otherwise, by that logic, things like the Tiger Camo Combaticons (which were never released separately) could only ever be sold 'complete' as a set and only ever count as 1.
And how about the recent Universe Minicon 12-pack? If the individual Minicons can't be counted because they have to be with 11 other Minicons, you would have trouble counting the same toys being released soon individually?

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So the mini-con teams count as multi packs where the minicons that come with larger figures count as accessories...right?

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Originally Posted by griffin

It is still a playable toy, so it counts as one if you have one or both. If you have one figure, you have an incomplete, playable toy. If you have the second you have a complete playable toy(if you have all the accessories as well). Basically, if you are one of the few who doesn't get some Micromasters in their pairs, it counts as 1 with the first one, and getting the second just completes that 1. You list the pair on your roster/checklist as a single pair, and just note if it is complete or not, based on if you have both figures and their accessories.

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I like this. Sounds very good to me!

I'm quite persuaded by some of the responses. I agree that ideally any criteria should to be clear, simple and few.

Bearing in mind however that when we poll on this, we only poll to the nearest 100, is using T3 rather than UCM going to skew the results significantly? Polling only to the nearest 100 already throws huge amounts of noise (around 5%) into the stats even for those of us with collections around or above the 1000 mark. Smaller collections of 200 or so could be looking at noise in the 25% range.

I guess I'm asking this: Is the margin of error generated by using pretty much whatever subjective (or quasi-objective) counting method seems best greater than the rounding error? Is it really statistically significant for comparison purposes?

If we're being entirely honest, any voluntary poll of this kind is only quasi-scientific anyway, since it's all self-assessed and reported. It would only be truly scientific if a disinterested 3rd party came to each of our homes and counted our collections using their own independent criteria.

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Originally Posted by Golden Phoenix

So the mini-con teams count as multi packs where the minicons that come with larger figures count as accessories...right?

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It's like the Blackout and Spaceshot example, they are listed as a pair, but neither is an accessory to the other. It's just more difficult to accept because the Minicon and partner robot aren't the same size. If you list the pair in words on a checklist, it makes it look a little more obvious, but as toys, it is a little more challanging to accept. Majority of people would get Sparkplug and Optimus together, and it would count as one toy because Optimus needs Sparkplug to be complete. If you got Optimus first, it is easier to see it as an incomplete toy, that counts as 1. If you got Sparkplug first, you would essentially have an incomplete Optimus-Sparkplug toy, but a playable incomplete toy still counts as 1. Getting the remaining figure in the pair is like getting missing accessories - it doesn't add to your score, it just lets you label the *toy* as 'complete'.

The Minicon issue was the hardest for me to reconcile, and I still would like to count Minicons separately, but if I did that, I would have to list all my large Armada toys in my records as 'incomplete'. This counting method purely aims to be able to classify EVERY item as 'complete' at the same time. Listing one toy separately as complete at the expense of another toy that needs it, leads to conflict and confusion among fans. Designating an objective measure is bound to meet resistance or rejection from subjective fans. After all, we are fans of the characters and the toys, not just the toys.