What's Takara Tomy's and Hasbro's stance on 3rd party bots?

I was about to ask if anyone was experiencing similar issues to myself with TFW. That was a quick and hard blow. If TFW has indeed been shut down, you're looking a massive fan-rage apocalypse. It's pretty lucky we have our own boards here. It must suck for those who don't have any other community besides TFW to fall back on. So much was invested into TFW. Collection threads, discussions, billions of photos that may be gone.

This is a big dick move on Hasbro's part. Having a quiet word would have done the job.

Barring further news I'm going to pull an Ockham's Razor and go with "actual server migration issues" until more information comes out and/or time passes.

That said, methinks there may be a certain amount of 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted' if the rumours are true, and it's definitely a big loss/blow to 'the fandom' if so, since as has been mentioned TFW is/was quite the major online TF-fan page. Similarly, the nature of the internet is that new sites can spring up just as quickly as HTT could try to shut them down, so if - again, if - it is a HTT-inspired move then it seems like more trouble than it's worth in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Well, it looks like Hasbro just started caring. TFW2005 is down right now, because it "got hit with several DCMAs from Hasbro at around 3am this morning. Apparently the site had been "Overenthusiastically promoting products not licensed or produced by Hasbro that were protected properties." Things are not looking good right now. That's all I can say at this time." Big news.

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Where were the quotes from? Is there a source you can link to, or just private messages making it through the grapevine?

Guess who's back. Back again. Shady's back. Tell a friend.

In other words, TFW are back up.

I wonder why they didn't give some warning to being offline during the transfer.

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Originally Posted by griffin

Where were the quotes from? Is there a source you can link to, or just private messages making it through the grapevine?

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Never mind, I found someone quoting a post that doesn't exist anymore.

It's good to hear that this wasn't the end of TFW, and my suspicious mind over the timing certainly made today very interesting.

I think they moved to a Canadian server (someone with tech skills may be able to tell for sure), so if that is true, I wonder if they moved it after threats by Hasbro, so that Hasbro then can't use the more powerful American laws to shut them down.

Either way, they didn't remove any 3rd Party stuff from their news page, so either it was never an issue, or now they are located the site so that they can keep doing it.

There's nothing quite like some wild speculation thrown around in the absence of facts. If nothing else, it lets our imaginations run wild :D

Oh - well that's a lot less exciting. It was quite quick-witted for someone to make up the DCMA thing. Very weird that they didn't warn people it was going to be down. Sorry for the confusion!

Well that was a lot of huffing and puffing.

I'm only a TFW visitor on an as-needs basis but I noticed they now that a news feed option that excludes 3rd party stuff. Is that new? It's not the default though.

Nah, that's been there for ages. They've got one that excludes Movie news too.

Re. the DCMA thing, I checked out their Facebook group last night and there was a comment from someone claiming a mate of theirs was an admin at TFW, and their friend had told them about the DCMA thing. So yeah, PMs through the grapevine.

Does anyone know if Repro labels are officially liscenced?

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Originally Posted by Tfiguy

Does anyone know if Repro labels are officially liscenced?

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We know they're not.

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Originally Posted by Tfiguy

Does anyone know if Repro labels are officially liscenced?

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I'm pretty sure the official stance is Hasbro/Takara are not in the market for stickers and have no problem with reprolabels.

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Originally Posted by Bidoofdude

I'm pretty sure the official stance is Hasbro/Takara are not in the market for stickers and have no problem with reprolabels.

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I swear that I saw some official Transformer labels on Chimungmung the other day. They actually had Transformers written on them. But now I can't find them

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Originally Posted by Tfiguy

I swear that I saw some official Transformer labels on Chimungmung the other day. They actually had Transformers written on them. But now I can't find them

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Supposedly the Ocean Design sets are licensed.

http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-...r-sets-181401/

http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/m...category=10315

Since my 10 second google search didn't give me an answer, I thought I would ask here: Why don't any of these companies like Fanstoys etc become licensed?

- They obviously have talented designers and engineers
- They found a niche market which is happy to pay a lot of money for the products
- Instead of trying to create new characters and creations they are focussing on existing ones so they want to use Transformers
- In a lot of cases they are making things that for whatever reason can't or won't be made 'officially' by Hasbro/Takara

If they could get officially licensed it may help bring costs and prices down by access to Hasbro/Takara's production and shipping methods, they could have official names and likenesses instead of changing things just slightly enough to be a little different, it would erase any morally or legally grey areas, they could combine knowledge and communication about plans and ideas.


There is obviously a market for higher end aimed at adult collectibles, if Hasbro/Takara are not as interested as much themselves why not join forces and add to their market share instead of watching the other companies essentially take money from them?

Is either side interested? I know there have been statements or quotes from official sources saying they are aware they exist, keep an eye out etc but the questions focus on 'what do you think about what these companies are doing?/what is your stance?' and not 'have you thought about working together?'.

I guess if the 3rd party companies remain independent then they keep, for lack of a better term in this case, 'creative freedom' but then they run the risk of things like losing sales potentially because an official item is announced which would directly compete.

Bit of a ramble but I didn't notice any info on it, what are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by philby

Since my 10 second google search didn't give me an answer, I thought I would ask here: Why don't any of these companies like Fanstoys etc become licensed?

- They obviously have talented designers and engineers
- They found a niche market which is happy to pay a lot of money for the products
- Instead of trying to create new characters and creations they are focussing on existing ones so they want to use Transformers
- In a lot of cases they are making things that for whatever reason can't or won't be made 'officially' by Hasbro/Takara

If they could get officially licensed it may help bring costs and prices down by access to Hasbro/Takara's production and shipping methods, they could have official names and likenesses instead of changing things just slightly enough to be a little different, it would erase any morally or legally grey areas, they could combine knowledge and communication about plans and ideas.


There is obviously a market for higher end aimed at adult collectibles, if Hasbro/Takara are not as interested as much themselves why not join forces and add to their market share instead of watching the other companies essentially take money from them?

Is either side interested? I know there have been statements or quotes from official sources saying they are aware they exist, keep an eye out etc but the questions focus on 'what do you think about what these companies are doing?/what is your stance?' and not 'have you thought about working together?'.

I guess if the 3rd party companies remain independent then they keep, for lack of a better term in this case, 'creative freedom' but then they run the risk of things like losing sales potentially because an official item is announced which would directly compete.

Bit of a ramble but I didn't notice any info on it, what are your thoughts?

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Hasbro aren't interested.

From scratchy memory, the licensing fee for an official Hasbro convention was $50K. So you can begin to imagine why Fans Toys etc wouldn't want to have to pay fees for actual toys. And they wouldn't need any approval from Hasbro.

^^ This/these, and also...

Hasbro/Takara-Tomy is more than capable of putting out the same level of quality releases as 3rd Party crews, but 1) they have to take into account child safety laws/regulations, and 2) HasTakTom price points. If, say, FansToys were to 'join up' with Hasbro, and some (let's say American) more-dollars-than-sense parent bought an 'adult collectible' TF for their spoilt kid, who then tried eating said collectible and choked to death, that'd be Lawsuit City for Hasbro.
If a 3rd Party outfit were to join the Official HTT Family, they'd have to both design their works to be dumb-child-proof, and (as likely as not) to make their production cost palatable for mass-release. Parts count, drop-test-survivable, moron-proof, paint apps...all of these factors would be pretty limiting to someone wanting to make high-end transforming robots for theoretically-mature, adult collectors.

Hasbro/Takara-Tomy has the design talent and resources to put out 3rd-Party-quality (and better) stuff already, but it's just not cost-effective - from a design and/or legal point of view. There's more money to be made by making mass-release, inferior-quality toys (which, to be fair, I often quite enjoy) to sell to a wider market than there is in making high-end, often-quite-delicate toys to sell to a niche market...which is what 3rd Party groups do. They don't have to worry about child-safety laws, and they don't have to worry nearly as much about product cost...they can just focus on making good toys.
In the same way as it's not in HTT's interests to 'adopt' 3rd-Party producers' works into their own portfolio, it'd also be really limiting to 3rd-Party producers to become Official.

As stated above licensing costs a fortune and Hasbro and co are more restricted, so I doubt there would be any cost benefit to the consumer. If you consider the limited amount of licensed 3rd party products that have been released like that Minerva and Alpha Trion figure they've all been rather pricey for toys that don't transform and reportedly not the best quality either.

Similarly I'm not sure the 3rd parties need worry as much about official Hasbro releases cutting into their sales, so much as they have to worry about all the other 3rd parties also releasing collector aimed toys of the same character.

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

^^ This/these, and also...

Hasbro/Takara-Tomy is more than capable of putting out the same level of quality releases as 3rd Party crews, but 1) they have to take into account child safety laws/regulations, and 2) HasTakTom price points. If, say, FansToys were to 'join up' with Hasbro, and some (let's say American) more-dollars-than-sense parent bought an 'adult collectible' TF for their spoilt kid, who then tried eating said collectible and choked to death, that'd be Lawsuit City for Hasbro.
If a 3rd Party outfit were to join the Official HTT Family, they'd have to both design their works to be dumb-child-proof, and (as likely as not) to make their production cost palatable for mass-release. Parts count, drop-test-survivable, moron-proof, paint apps...all of these factors would be pretty limiting to someone wanting to make high-end transforming robots for theoretically-mature, adult collectors.

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why would they have to do that suddenly if they aren't now? why don't they have to do that now? nothing would have changed.

I guess I'm thinking they could just continue to do what they already do, but make it 'official'. that licensing fee does sound pretty steep, but it would be a one-off cost wouldn't it or at least not be every year or something?

how cost effective are these 3rd party companies then? i know hasbro/TT could probably do these figures if they wanted to and think it isn't worth it, but if these companies are doing it then it seems to me that there's something there.

philby: Some 3rd party Transformers products are officially licensed. These include...
* Revoltech TFs
* CM Corps (Ginrai, Minerva, Hi-Q, Nightbeat)
* Super-deformed Fortress, Grand and Brave Maximi
* Gigantic Action Mega Zarak & Black Zarak
etc.

I completely agree with you that the 3P KO makers should go legit and purchase licence from Hasbro. Also, in Australia, the licensing cost is $10,000. That's how much companies like JayJays would've paid. At the end of the day, we all vote with our wallets. If you object to unlicensed third party toys, then just don't buy them (I don't). :o

i know about the revoltech ones and stuff cheers, i meant more like scoria and quakewave etc.

i'm more just curious. i don't feel as...strong...about it as you and some others do and i personally wouldn't go as far as calling some of them knock-offs. that's just me though.

hercules and green giant to me are not knock off's because in my mind a knock off is reverse engineering or stealing the mold or something, like the 'fake' MP prowl and lambor etc. hercules and green giant are to me more like modern re-interpretations of a character for which there isn't an 'official' counterpart or alternative. it is someone else's character though.

if some of these companies could come to agreement with hasbro/TT it seems like everyone would win. hasbro gets more money from licensing and new sales. they don't lose as much as the other companies are still making the product but maybe give them access to bigger buying power/production means. fans win because they get more 'masterpiece' style figures or combiners or whatever else which are official. 3rd party companies win because they can get access to maybe r&d or technology, new distribution and aren't in a legal grey area any more.

Hasbro / Takara are very unlikely to give up control of the core function of the brand - the Transforming action figures. It's their bread and butter and it's likely to stay in-house for a long time. Selling licenses would dilute their product.

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Originally Posted by llamatron

Hasbro / Takara are very unlikely to give up control of the core function of the brand - the Transforming action figures. It's their bread and butter and it's likely to stay in-house for a long time. Selling licenses would dilute their product.

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Bearbricks are transforming, and so are the Sentinel pens... so there is now precedent of licenses being issued to 3rd parties to produce and sell converting Transformers (as of last year). It's just very hard to design and produce converting toys, and then have to go through all the hefty added expenses of safety testing, trademarks/patents, and licensing (something that the unlicensed people don't have to spend money on), so probably no one in the past has been able to do it before on a major scale.

True, but those are "novelty" items that are very distinct from mainline Transformers (i.e. existing products being produced by Hasbro/Takara). The vast majority of current unlicensed third party Transformers are designed to look and operate in a manner functionally identical to the Masterpiece and/or Generations lines.

Leaving aside the semantics debate over the technical VS common-use definition of 'Knock-Offs'...

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Originally Posted by philby

why would they have to do that suddenly if they aren't now? why don't they have to do that now? nothing would have changed.

I guess I'm thinking they could just continue to do what they already do, but make it 'official'. that licensing fee does sound pretty steep, but it would be a one-off cost wouldn't it or at least not be every year or something?

how cost effective are these 3rd party companies then? i know hasbro/TT could probably do these figures if they wanted to and think it isn't worth it, but if these companies are doing it then it seems to me that there's something there.

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Almost but not quite: one thing would have changed, and that's that Hasbro would have become officially affiliated with the 3rd party products.
And thus, open to legal culpability if little Timmy got one, broke it (the aforementioned 'safety standards' bit), and then hurt himself trying to eat the non-child-safety-designed shards of his Hasbro-affiliated Wrist-Cuttor transforming action figure.
Sure, 3rd party groups could really benefit from Hasbro's production scales and market reach, and there's niche-market money to be made for Hasbro, but ultimately the money to be made is peanuts for Hasbro (unless they reduce costs on their newly-acquired "Masterpiece Shockwave" somehow, most likely with reduced parts-count and/or paint apps, i.e. reduced 'quality'), and/or with the possibility of legal hassles for non-mass-market production values.

From a 3rd-Party point-of-view, it'd involve making a hefty payment to have Hasbro tell you how you had to limit your designs, either for customer safety and/or for reducing production costs so Hasbro could sell more toys.
I'm pretty sure someone like Joe Kyde could easily top most of what, say, Maketoys puts out if he didn't have to worry about price-points and idiot-proofing his designs, but that's not Hasbro's market strategy. They make most of their money by selling toys to 10-year-olds and parents-thereof, while 3rd party groups go after high-end collector adults who are willing and able to spend stupid amounts of money on "the best" toys they can get without having to worry about child safety standards. If they became 'part of Hasbro' then they'd have to start factoring in all that stuff, because either Hasbro's accounting division would complain about making less profit per unit than their "Fast Action Puncher Bumblebee with New Hat" line, and/or Hasbro would be open to lawsuits when some moron American kid got shot because he went out waving formerly-Apollyon-now-MasterPiece-Megatron-Mk.2 and some overzealous cop shot him thinking it was a real gun.
TL;DR version: if 3rd party groups teamed up with Hasbro, then they'd become officially legitimate, and that would open them - and Hasbro - up to lawsuits and cost-benefit-type production values.

I get where you're coming from and I agree in principle, but in practice it's not really in either Hasbro's or the various 3rd party groups' interests (or ours) for them to 'join forces' like that. It's more risk for less money and/or design freedom.

As for the level of money involved, from what little I know about it, it seems that there's enough money in the 3rd Party scene to keep a bunch of small-time companies going, but nowhere near the mass-release profits Hasbro gets from its mainstream toylines. It's like McDonalds VS a local high-quality hamburger joint - the local place might make enough to get by, maybe even expand their menu a little, but it's still peanuts compared to what McDonalds makes, and it's not really worth their time and energy to try for that particular niche burger market.

thanks for the info! I'm curious as to why Maketoys etc don't need to do safety testing. Or do they just choose not to? If it is clearly labelled and marketed to adults or something then couldn't Hasbro just skip it for them if they already skip it?

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Originally Posted by philby

thanks for the info! I'm curious as to why Maketoys etc don't need to do safety testing. Or do they just choose not to? If it is clearly labelled and marketed to adults or something then couldn't Hasbro just skip it for them if they already skip it?

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They choose not to. It keeps the cost down. Hasbro is a global brand and with that comes an elevated responsibility so they'll do their due diligence when it comes to safety requirements.

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Originally Posted by philby

i'm more just curious. i don't feel as...strong...about it as you and some others do and i personally wouldn't go as far as calling some of them knock-offs. that's just me though.

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They are actually knock offs though, as knock off is a product which uses the distinctive likeness of someone else's intellectual property, but isn't actually a replica of it. A counterfeit is an unauthorised replica. I know that some people use "knock off" as a synonym for counterfeits, but technically and legally there is a difference between the two.

I like to think of it as a form of fan art, commissioned fan art if you will, there is no denying the engineering or the asthenic of one of these pieces of plastic art is as good as any sketch some artist whips up and makes a print of and sells/gives away at a convention. if you want to claim infringing on someone's intellectual property then fan art is just as big an infringer as a Fan Art toy company

I agree, and this is also why I personally don't purchase fan art.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

They are actually knock offs though, as knock off is a product which uses the distinctive likeness of someone else's intellectual property, but isn't actually a replica of it. A counterfeit is an unauthorised replica. I know that some people use "knock off" as a synonym for counterfeits, but technically and legally there is a difference between the two.

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They are indeed knockoffs, though "knock-off" usually carries a connotation of an imitation of inferior quality offered for a lower price. In the case of these "knock-offs" they are usually of equal or higher quality and sold for a higher price, given that I can understand why the word doesn't feel like a perfect fit for some.

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Originally Posted by Sharky

I like to think of it as a form of fan art, commissioned fan art if you will, there is no denying the engineering or the asthenic of one of these pieces of plastic art is as good as any sketch some artist whips up and makes a print of and sells/gives away at a convention. if you want to claim infringing on someone's intellectual property then fan art is just as big an infringer as a Fan Art toy company

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You just reminded me of this really great post:

Is Fan Art Illegal?

This is an SDCC seminar by a copyright lawyer who used to work for Paramount Pictures. It's like an hour long but really good. If you don't have the time the main points are summarised in the article/post under the video.


Basically:

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Do you own the character in question?

Yes? Do what you please!
No? You have no legal right to profit from work featuring characters without permission from copyright holder.
No? You have almost no rights to create such works not for a profit, either.

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I still buy and commission fan art though :D the artist alley at botcon was the best!

I don't see all third party stuff as infringing on IP, because there are some third party products that are licensed (ex gokin, for example, who do some superb work but at exceptional prices), and Hasbro are seeking to license third party producers who distribute their product through Shapeways (have a look at the MLP stuff that's already there). Takara do the garage kit licenses, so I'm not entirely convinced that third party producers couldn't make an effort to seek licenses.

And there are plenty of third party products (swords, guns, etc) that are compatible with transformers (eg 5mm handles) and are original IP. I'd much prefer to support new product and new designs than a rehash of an existing character, especially with the diversity of stuff Hasbro makes in the Generations line. Plus as much as we complain about HasbroAU pricing, is still substantially less than third party products.

I'll give you an example. FansProject did their Retro-Future Glaciallord line (a combiner mammoth and other prehistoric animals). They did cel animation style art reminicient of generic 80's anime, and an original box design. I bought it in a snap, and I think its my favourite "third party" product out there. Even the "Scramble-City" style combiner ports didn't infringe Takara IP, because the patent in these has expired and entered the public domain.

Sadly though its not widely available or reissued, so I suspect it wasn't a great seller.

Judging from pictures, I wouldn't say that Glacialord is a knock off, rather a unique product that someone's made which happens to be compatible with a nearly 30 year old Transformer design. This isn't too different from IBM compatible computers (and components) or generic brand automotive parts (e.g. an oil filter that is compatible with a Toyota Corolla engine that isn't manufactured by Toyota).

I personally have no issue with such toys. They're not my thing, but I don't object to them at all. :) Heck, Hasbro's been known to make their toys cross-compatible with toys from other companies; e.g.:
* G2 Gobots (CR/RiD Spychangers) -- they're compatible with Mattel's Hot Wheels launchers and tracks. This isn't explicitly mentioned or marketed anywhere on the toy packaging, but the toys are all the same width as standard Hot Wheels cars, and their free-spinning axle gimmick allows them to conserve momentum and be launched and "fly" along any Hot Wheels sets.
* Those Movieverse non-transformable cars and track sets. Same concept as G2 Go-Bots, only worse cos they can't even transform (although they do come w/ sets so you don't have to go and buy Mattel's).
* Built-to-Rule and Kre-Os, which are of course, compatible with Lego.

I don't mind other companies making their own transforming robot toys, so long as they're distinctively original and not blatantly ripping off Hasbro's IP.

tinyJazz: I don't know if you're already aware of this, but the sales of an unlicensed fan comic was what killed BotCon Japan in 2000. The comic book was "Transformers Chronicles" by Ichikawa Hirofumi. Takara ordered Ichikawa to stop selling the books, but he was allowed to give them away for free. But this meant that Ichikawa made a substantial personal financial loss; he was initially selling the comics to break even, not to make a profit. The Japanese fan community lashed out against Takara because of this, and Takara had to work hard to repair strained relations with the fans; which culminated in Takara hiring Ichikawa to work for them in an official capacity (e.g. eHobby exclusive G1 profiles, Binaltech art and stories etc.).

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...r_ironhide.jpg
A beautifully toy-accurate G1 Ironhide from BotCon Japan 2000's Cybertron Chronicles by Ichikawa Hirofumi

if Toyota sells a Toyota brand air filter for their Corolla is not the unlicensed third party generic filter effectively a KO?


I personally prefer the term Independent toy manufacturers for companies that make unlicensed transformers product.

as mentioned above, 3rd party should really refer to companies producing licensed transformers product on behalf of Hasbro and Takara, of which there is plenty of.

Indie toy makers then refers to companies that make new toys based on HasTak IP (Fansproject Function X line for example) and completely new toys that only use a concept/mechanism that is now publicly available (Fansproject Glacial bots). This really also should refer to Accessories manufactured to go with licenced toys (Igears kup head for example, probably their best product)

Other items which are direct rip offs of transformation or even just a slight modification to the official product should fall into the KO bucket.


But as others have stated above, hasTak and the Indie companies probably wouldn't benefit much from the expense of working together and HasTak probably don't see a cost benefit in taking on Indie companies in court. They are taking them on in other ways, constant masterpiece releases (I personally wouldn't want them to release these any faster otherwise I'd have to start budgeting some out) and the new combiner wars line, which is pretty much part of their overall Generations line going forward.

I have some 1st party product, some 3rd party product and some Indie product and I like it all. I just wish I had the space and the money to buy more of it all.