Revenge of the Fallen Toys comments/discussion

I took Jetfire and Long Haul out of there boxes. They were both better than I excpected.

Jetfire is not to bad for a leader, still not quite worth his discounted price, but close. I like his jetmode despite its huge flaws. Although he has more robot kibble on his underbelly than Universe Silverbolt, the fact that he looks like an awesome real jet from above makes him much more tolerable for me, plus he only cost $10 more. I'm also glad they used a nice matt black rather than the usual shiny black plastic. His robot mode ain't bad either though his knees seem to give way in some poses, I guess that's why he needs his walking stick. The combined mode is better than I excpected to, it makes Prime look even bigger and actualy seems rather solid.

The main problem with Jetfire IMO is that they could have done even better if they removed the sound box.

Long Haul is good to, as most have said. I don't favour him as much as previous poster, the roof above his head in bot mode bugs me a bit, other than that he is pretty good.

He's displaces Mixmaster who previously held two places as 3rd favourte Voyager, and favourte Constructicon.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

It's absolutely possible. Do you know how heavy a knight was when fully equipped with mail and plate armour?! Yet they still had to wield around various melee weapons such as swords, spears, shields etc. with sufficient speed and dexterity!

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Firstly, we're not really talking about medieval times, and even if we ere, that's not really comparable as their adversaries were similarly equipped. Long Haul is shown to be a slow, lumbering character. There's no way he's going to get close enough to an Autobot to use those swords without being shot.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Warhammers are good for impact damage whereas blades are superior in terms of penetration. Guns aren't melee weapons so there's no comparison there - although having a huge gun _would_ explain his Fireblast of 9!! :p

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Again, you're a bit off the mark as I'm not talking exclusively about melee weapons. I'm talking about what I perceive as an unrealistic decision to give a toy, based on a slow-moving lumbering character, a weapon that give him little value in the type of warfare he is shown to be participating in. Perhaps your discussion of the pros and cons of various weaponry would be better served here.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

For the first time in ages I actually feel that this toy was actually _worth_ its hefty Voyager price tag!

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This is a fairly useless barometer.

Firstly, no two people will have a similar assessment of a toy's financial worth, as no two people are in the same financial situation, which is always going to be strongly tied to that assessment. Would a toy's worth be similar to a collector earning 80K per year, vs. another making 30K a year, or to a student who can only work 5 hours a week? Of course not.

Secondly, we all know that there's no way in the world that we should get the toys we get at the prices we're paying for them. You can be sure someone's doing back breaking labour and ridiculous hours in order to get you your plastic at what you might deem to be a worthy price.

So, back on topic, rather then lecturing me about my opinion on his weapons, or assuming we're all in the same financial situation as you, why don't you tell us what you like and dislike about the toy.

Getting a bit more of topic here, but I think his weapons whatever there value, look more like axes than any sort of sword, unlike Prime's there's no edge for thrusting. All he can do is cleave with then.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I actually feel that this toy was actually _worth_ its hefty Voyager price tag!

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Originally Posted by jaydisc

This is a fairly useless barometer.

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It's not really a barometer of anything except Gok's appreciation of the toy. It's simply one person expressing his opinion of value for money. He feels it's worth the money... he's not making any other representation there than this expression of opinion.

Okay, I also feel that it's worth $50 (and that most Voyagers aren't), but that's based on my experience with the toy.

Regarding the swords... you're both looking at it from a different point of view. Gok's looking at the usefulness of the swords in a general sense - expanded universe, if you like. jaydisc's looking at it based on what we see on Long Haul in the film. Neither point of view is wrong (although Gok's has a very open mind about what we _didn't_ see of Long Haul).

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Originally Posted by dirge

It's not really a barometer of anything except Gok's appreciation of the toy. It's simply one person expressing his opinion of value for money. He feels it's worth the money... he's not making any other representation there than this expression of opinion.

Okay, I also feel that it's worth $50 (and that most Voyagers aren't), but that's based on my experience with the toy.

Regarding the swords... you're both looking at it from a different point of view. Gok's looking at the usefulness of the swords in a general sense - expanded universe, if you like. jaydisc's looking at it based on what we see on Long Haul in the film. Neither point of view is wrong (although Gok's has a very open mind about what we _didn't_ see of Long Haul).

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+1

RE: Long Hauls swords

In the game Long Haul is the decepticon heavy hitter, suited to close quarters combat. He can take lots of damage,heal and has bad-ass flamethrowers that can only be used at short range. So the swords don't seem like a radical departure, hell he might even have them for melee in the game (don't remember if he does or not)

I like the swords because they make him a Triggercon :cool:

I also notice that his and Mixmaster's boxes do not use the word Constructicon. Anyone else notice that?

I had trouble getting the legs into the right position for truck mode at first but once I figured that out I like it.

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Originally Posted by jaydisc

Firstly, we're not really talking about medieval times, and even if we ere, that's not really comparable as their adversaries were similarly equipped.

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Melee weapons are "ancient" weapons. They were phased out of modern warfare with the advent of the sub-machine gun.

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Originally Posted by jaydisc

Long Haul is shown to be a slow, lumbering character. There's no way he's going to get close enough to an Autobot to use those swords without being shot.

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Which would be a MASSIVE problem for a human - hence why nobody ever uses melee weapons in war anymore! Your typical Taliban fighter will more likely use explosives or a rocket-propelled grenade against their enemies than say, a scimitar. :p But of course, Long Haul isn't human.

With the exception of small Transformers like Frenzy, Alice and Wheelie, most Transformers are shown to be _extremely_ durable thanks to armour and energy shielding. Even a simple drone like Scorponok was able to withstand _incredible_ amounts of artillery, even able to survive those Sabot rounds to dig a quick retreat. Other Transformers like Blackout, Brawl/Devastator, Optimus Prime and Megatron were all able to withstand incredible amounts of enemy fire. With such incredible endurance, it's definitely possible for these Transformers to take a lot of enemy fire and get close enough to use melee weaponry or even _closer_ combat with bare handed fighting.

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Originally Posted by jaydisc

Again, you're a bit off the mark as I'm not talking exclusively about melee weapons. I'm talking about what I perceive as an unrealistic decision to give a toy, based on a slow-moving lumbering character, a weapon that give him little value in the type of warfare he is shown to be participating in.

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I don't remember seeing Long Haul engaged in melee range combat. A person who's a slow mover isn't necessarily a slow melee fighter (and vice versa). As dirge alluded to, I am _assuming_ that Long Haul has the skill to wield those hook swords. Having said that, his tech specs don't really support my assumption very well - with a paltry skill of just 2 he's liable to lop his own head off with his own blades!

But I've never been a fan of HasTak giving Transformers melee weapons without also giving them guns. :/ It's a gripe I had with some Beast Wars toys - a problem that the cartoon writers obviously realised as they gave a lot of characters melee weapons where the toy had no range weapon (e.g.: Dinobot's eye lasers, Rhinox's chain guns of doom etc.). When I play with Long Haul I pretend that the wheels above his shoulders are missile launchers.

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Originally Posted by Lord Zed

look more like axes than any sort of sword, unlike Prime's there's no edge for thrusting. All he can do is cleave with then.

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They're not axes; in terms of usage hook swords are like a hybrid between a sickle or scimitar and a sword; a very _unusual_ combination which is really hard to use! I think any Transformer equipped with a hook sword (especially _twin_ hook swords) should have a minimum skill rating of 8.

You're missing Jaydisc's point. This thread is for discussing the toys not human weapons and fighting styles. As he pointing out you have another thread for that.

http://itfdb.com/temporary/tf/long_h...ights_tale.jpg