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I’ve seen it twice now. And I like it but don’t love it. No questions seemed to have been answered though. It started by the Resistance escaping and ended with the Resistance escaping. Everything else didn’t seem to matter. Snokes Death was dissapointing.
I quite liked this movie.
The main bad part for me was, as others have touched upon, the Canto Bite/Casino scene. It sort of reminds me of the Pod Race from The Phantom Menace in that while the scene is essential to the overall story of the film, it just drags on for too long and in doing so, stalls the momentum of the narrative. the Pod Race scene from TPM would've been much better if it'd only been one lap instead of three. And similarly the Canto Bite scene would have been better if it'd been about a third of its actual length. There's nothing wrong with a story slowing down for a "breather," but it shouldn't grind to a halt. After all, the Mos Eisley Cantina scene in A New Hope was a slowed down "breather" scene. But it was short. Back then Lucas knew to shorten the scene so that the pace didn't stall. This was why the scene with Jabba the Hutt meeting Han Solo at the Millennium Falcon was cut. The previous scene with Greedo already establishes that Han has a bounty on his head from Jabba. The Jabba scene is really just repeating that point unnecessarily.
What they should've done with the Canto Bite scene is cut it to make it a lot shorter, and then add those scenes back in for a later Special Edition! :D :p Fans love that kind of stuff and it gives you an excuse to re-release the film in cinemas and on DVD to make more money. Peter Jackson did the same thing with The Lord of the Rings. We didn't really need to see Eowyn flirting with Aragorn (although explaining who the Dunedain were was useful).
Having said that, I don't find it as boring as the Pod Race. I suppose because while the pace of the plot is stalled, it just isn't as repetitive as the Boonta Eve Race (inevitable since they are racing round and round on a race track :p). The scene of them riding on the back of those animals will probably be less exciting on subsequent viewings though. Gah. Racing around is fine if the plot races along with it - like in The Empire Strikes Back when Han races the Falcon through the asteroid field. That scene is intense! And this scene is certainly no where near as bad as say "that scene" from Transformers Age of Extinction. Because not only did that scene stall the narrative but it added nothing to the story. It was completely unessential. The Pod Race and the Canto Bite scenes, while too long and slow, are essential to the story (just not all of it).
Now for my really little nit-picky complaint that I'm sure no-one else will care about.
Language.
Firstly, the dropping of the A-word and the B-word. No other Star Wars movie has swearing in it. Aside from making the film less appropriate for children, as a story set in a galaxy far away with characters who aren't from Earth, it also makes no sense. Because those words in English are very historically and culturally set -- I won't bore you with a 500 word linguistic essay about it, but they are very Earth-based. I preferred it when they used insults that were more rooted in the Star Wars universe, like "poodoo" or "scruffy looking nerf herder" etc. The other point is grammar. Luke tells Artoo-Detoo to "watch" his language, which is funny as it kinda softly breaks the fourth wall and hits onto that long running joke that Artoo, with all his beeping, is just swearing all the time. But uh... he should've said "mind" your language. Because --- rrriiippp -- okay, okay, I won't rant on about the technical linguistics of it. Moving on!
Alright, so beyond the major Canto Bite thing and the language thing which probably noone else cares about... I must say that I really did enjoy The Last Jedi. There are no other main flaws with this film, and the ones that I cited are by no means deal-breakers for me. There are so many other enjoyable things that I found in this movie, so let's look at what I liked...
- More originality and an unpredictable plot for me. This film took a lot of typical movie clichés and just flipped them on their heads. :D
- Great acting from all cast members, and also greater gender and ethnic diversity in the cast. Hamill's performance as Luke Skywalker was just brilliant.
- Great visual effects, sounds and music.
- The Easter Eggs didn't feel forced or hammy. Like when Artoo shows Luke Leia's old "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi" recording. Great homage but it also contributed to the story. It's not like say Dr Evazan and Ponda Baba at Jehda in Rogue One which was nothing more than an Easter Egg for fans but did nothing else.
- The throne room battle was FANTASTIC! :D Reminds me of when Optimus Prime and Megatron teamed up within Unicron in Transformers Prime.
- The Ren vs Skywalker fight was also really cool. Loved how Luke didn't leave any footprints on the salt-covered ground. I thought that it was because Luke was using the Force to make himself really light footed for better agility (in The Lord of the Rings Elves naturally have this ability - this is most noticeable in the scene where the Fellowship are walking through a blizzard and Legolas is the only one who leaves no footprints and does not sink into the snow. Everyone else is up to their waists while Legolas can gingerly step forward and look ahead). But the fact that Luke was a Force projected Danger Room illusion came as yet another surprise to me. :D #sniktsnikt
- So cool seeing Leia finally using a Force power to save herself. She was essentially doing an extended Force Pull to pull herself back inside the ship. And it is possible for someone to survive in a vacuum for that length of time. Watch this video if you want to learn about the science behind it. As for why she even has any Force powers, this should be obvious. Obviously she is also the daughter of Anakin Skywalker just like Luke. And in Return of the Jedi Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned, and Luke later tells Leia that, "In time, you'll have this power too." So it was always stated that Luke would train Leia. And in the end we see Luke connect with Leia through the Force and also physically transferred Han's dice from the Falcon (just as Kylo Ren accidentally transferred drops of water from Ahch-To) -- this level of Force connection only seems possible between powerful Force users. Speaking of which...
- Further evolution of Force powers! Powerful Force users are now able to connect across great distances and even transfer matter via the Force. And this is not necessarily a new concept - previous films have established that some Force powers are only accessible at higher levels. e.g. only highly accomplished Sith Lords can project lightning. Darth Maul and Darth Vader were never able to do this (Vader most likely because he lacked sufficient organic matter to even tap into the Force at that level despite his continued progression in the Dark Side). Before Qui Gon Jinn Jedi were never able to commune beyond the grave, and it was Obi-Wan and Yoda who were taught, by Qui Gon, how to further develop this power and appear as Force ghosts. Obi-Wan was also the first Jedi to be able to become one with the Force upon death and disappear. This surprised Vader as we see him stepping on Obi-Wan's cloak to ensure that it wasn't some kind of illusion/trick. The Force isn't a stagnant thing -- it's ever evolving and growing. Users of the Force continue to learn and develop new techniques as they try to achieve their Ultimate Form. :p
- This movie blurs the lines of good and evil. Rey isn't necessarily looking to be a light side user, she just wants to know what this power is and what her place is. <Insert HSC English rant about belongment> :p Kylo Ren also isn't entirely convinced about the Dark Side either. We know he's conflicted, but in this film he talks about how he wants to destroy everything. The light, the dark, the Resistance, the First Order... he wants to tear it all down. He wants to kill Snoke just as much as he wants to kill Skywalker, and ultimately succeeds in doing both. And I do wonder if Kylo also felt Luke's passing through the Force as Rey and Leia did, or did he choose who he want to communicate that feeling with. We'll find out in the next movie. What might be interesting is if this trilogy ends with neither the light or dark side winning, but rather the rise of the Grey Jedi. Those who embrace elements from both the light and dark sides and achieving a balance in the Force.
- One interesting thing from the Canto Bite scene was how they showed that there are the same people gunrunning for both the Resistance and the First Order and getting filthy rich from doing so. Much like the Quintessons did between the Xetaxxans and the Lanarqans, as well as countless actual examples from real life. And people like the Code Breaker doesn't consider either side to be any better or worse than the other. His loyalty only lies with whoever is paying him. And before we criticise the Code Breaker too harshly, remember that Han Solo started off being just like this in A New Hope. He only cared about his reward. He did change at the end, and that was indeed Han's character journey. But the Code Breaker is pretty much like Han only that he hasn't gone on a journey to make him change his moral code. And heck, we know that Han even reverts back to being just a mercenary after his son fell to the Dark Side.
#maydivorcebewithyou
- This film really takes a far darker tone and the good guys just can't seem to get a break here. And the film ends on a grim note with a glimmer of hope. This really reminds me of The Empire Strikes Back. This movie is essentially "The First Order Strikes Back," cos yeah... that's exactly what they did.
[list]"Why didn't the Dreadnought just destroy the diminished Resistance ships?"
The main reason would be to use it as an emotional ploy to enrage Rey in an attempt to turn her to the Dark Side of the Force. The Emperor did the same thing to Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi...
"Hold here."
"We're not going to attack?"
"I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special
planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."
In this case, the Resistance has no means of escape. If they jump to hyperspace, the First Order can easily follow and then they won't be able to jump again. If they continue to sail out slowly, then they will eventually run out of fuel. Escaping in shuttles is folly because they're unarmed and unshielded. And even if they reach Helm's Deep, uh, I mean, that abandoned Rebel Base, it's a dead end for them. There's no way that the Resistance could possibly win unless some Space Wizard magically teleports in and distracts Kylo Ren while another Space Wizard lifts rocks to clear a back exit. But what are the odds of that? :p[/i]
For me this film has many more pros than cons. Not the best Star Wars movie -- the Force Awakens did have better pacing even though its story wasn't as deep and was more predictable. So while it's by no means perfect, I still regard it as a good movie. If the next Bayformers movie were to be half as good as this film...
Im not going to lie, one of the things I really enjoyed about this film were the shock twists that we weren't expecting (i.e. Snoke being wiped out, Rey's irrelevant parents), however, now that I know all these things, will the film stand up to my original impression on a second viewing now that I know what is going to happen?, I think my second viewing will be the real test of how this installment stacks up for me. Whilst I agree the route they decided to go gave a good shock factor, was it really anything special?, or just the most laziest way to go about it?, I mean Abrams did well to set up a whole host of characters and intrigue for them, and Johnson just threw it all in the bin?, its much easier to just brush all the hype aside like Johnson did for a cheap thrill than to actually try and build on the set up, creating more intrigue and direction for these questions to sustain the intrigue for a climactic reveal or twist in the final installment. I mean personally Iif I was Abrams I would be pretty p*ssed off with episode VIII, he did all this work to build up characters and Johnson comes round and kills them all off, I mean what has he got to work with now for Episode IX?, Snoke's dead, Luke's dead, Leia is presumably dead, no mystery behind Rey, even Phasma's dead?, its really just Ren vs Rey, in terms of a trilogy, it really took the legs and wind out from under the final installment.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I agree, awesome acting from all the main cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Also agree, although some of the CGI characters weren't totally up to scratchQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Loved that scene, it was a perfect moment for Luke and R2, and a great plot pointQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Excellent comparison (although personally I would still rate that Optimus and Megatron co-op as the better scene, seriously it was the best thing I've seen from Transformers since the animated movie)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
A mate of mine brought that up, I was planning on paying attention to it for my second viewing, I missed it on the first viewingQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
OK so I dig the fact that they finally got to show Leia's connection with the force, and I also liked how they wished to portray it as only coming into play as a sort of subconcious survival instinct, but it really looked and felt off to me, it just didn't feel like it was executed correctly, it looked silly and out of place. I couldn't help but think WTF in my mind when I saw it, even though I understood the concept and liked the idea behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I didn't know how to feel about this cause a lot of the times, while I thought the scenes were cool (i.e. Rey and Ren's force conersations, and Lukes force projection, I was also thinking, are we saying the force can now do this?, if so, what can't we do with the force?, basically you can introduce anything, maybe Rey will be able to fly like superman in Episode IX, and shoot lasers from her eyes, and breath ice, etc..., what are the parameters here?, cause I thought I knew themQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I really thought that they would emphasize on this aspect (grey force area) in this one, that that was what the original Jedi's were trying to master, an individual's balance of both the light and dark sides, rather than focusing only on the one aspect, but it never went that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
This was one of my main gripes of this scene, the introduction of the Galaxy's elite who profiteer off of the war, like did Star Wars really have to go and incorporate the whole 1% thing?, can't it just be a sci-fi fantasy?, you know like the Lord of the Rings was a medieval fantasy, can you imagine how ridiculous it would be if they tried to incorporate the 1% of mid-earths elite profiteering off of the war between the Orcs and Man, seriously there was no need for Star Wars to go there, I put that down to lazy story telling and lack of ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
The only plot comparisons I see with Empire is the fact that the whole movie is about the goodies being chased by the baddies and a young Jedi in training, other than that, they are two completely different movies, no where near on the same level as each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
This is a good point you highlighted, I never considered that aspect of it, if they had emphasized the reasoning from Snoke's point of view (or made that connection verbally) then yes the whole slow chase would have made a lot more sense, but I guess they didn't want to draw a direct comparison with Return of the JediQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Again I can not deny I really enjoyed my first experience viewing it, although I left with mixed feelings about a lot if it, I nevertheless was on the edge of my seat during a lot of the scenes with a big stupid grin on my face.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Admittedly, there are a few things that didn't sit well with me i.e. Leia's Mary Poppins, excessive cheap gags, Yoda ghost lightning (I guess you can do anything with the force these days, even when you're dead) which I am happy to overlook, but if there was anything that I would say I was actually annoyed with or didn't agree with, its Luke dying at the end, cause really, why the hell did he die?, what caused him to die?, they literally trampled and dragged his character through the mud to finally sort of bring him back for the final act, and then for no apparent reason he goes OK, I guess I'll just die now?, like wtf? it made absolutely no sense and I think they did a disservice to his character, I mean this is LUKE F SKYWALKER we are talking about here. Wouldn't it of made more sense that when he disconnected with his projection, after telling Kylo "the war is just beginning and I will not be the last jedi", after staring into the sunset with a determined look, he gets up, makes his way down to the bottom of the cliff where his X-wing is raising to the surface of the water, passes R2 saying "C'mon R2, there is much to be done" and you see them flying out towards the atmosphere where he intends to join up with the Rebels to lead the fight in against the first order in Episode IX (where we can finally see him be the Master Jedi we were all hoping for in this installment, buiding up support for the Rebels with his legendary feats such as force crushing Tie Fighters or AT-At's or even a Star Destroyer, before dying and passing the torch to Rey at some point in episode IX). But no, instead for no apparent reason he just goes, hey I think I'll just die. Look it is what it is (and I know I just elaborated on my own personal fan fantasy), but I just think they did a disservice with his character to end it like they did, especially after dragging him through the mud like they did, I just didn't see the final act as really redeeming his character enough, I think he deserved a bit more of a meaningful and heroic send off, Luke Skywalker (and the Skywalker line) deserved more.
Return of the Jedi was the perfect end for Luke and the Skywalkers. Now i just think we are left with something less.
Just a quick note on this point - for the pacing of A New Hope the people you should be looking to thank are Marcia Lucas, Richard Chew and Paul Hirsch. This is a great watch if you've got 19 minutes and are obsessed with Star Wars like I am. The Empire of Dreams documentary touches on this point too. The first cut of the film by Lucas was a disaster in terms of pacing.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
The two biggest force prodigies active in the galaxy have been left entirely without guidance or supervision. That's the most interesting point I took from the film.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega Metro
(Please for the love of pie don't let JJ bring back Luke as a force ghost, it would cheapen what TLJ established)
Saw it. They said our ship is bigger so its slower.. but its in space with no gravity....... how is it slower?
Overall i enjoyed the movie. Thought it was better than 7 coz that was mianly a redo of the original story.
There will always be a sith and jedi to keep the balance. If rey or ren die another will be produced to replace them, as they have replaced those before them.
A few additional thoughts:
Luke
- His end was fitting. Rian Johnson has confirmed in interviews in the last few days what I think the most obvious interpretation of the events was, being that Luke expires at peace after the massive exertion of projecting himself across the galaxy. He sacrificed himself to save the entire remaining Resistance, and he did so in a way that was befitting of the old Luke Skywalker - he won without fighting, just like when he confronted the Emperor and turned Anakin Skywalker back to the light side. It was a more spiritual ending to the character than if he'd just turned up in person to bite the dust in the same way.
- They'll more than likely bring him back as a Force ghost. I hope that they either a) make him only appear to Kylo as a twist, or b) make him appear to Rey toward the end of Ep9. If he just came back to mentor Rey while semitransparent it would cheapen what for me was the big take away from this film - both the light and dark side prodigies are left entirely without teachers or spiritual guidance by the end of the film.
- I mean that said, I still can't quite wrap my head around this whole thing being caused by him entertaining the notion of murdering Ben Solo in his sleep. That was about the only part that felt wrong to me.
Finn, Poe, Canto Bight
- One of the main draw backs of episodic film making is that it becomes difficult to judge the arc of a character in one film when you know they're being set up for something bigger. The whole arc for the 'young Rebels' (Poe, Finn, Rose) in this was basically about Poe learning not to be an impulsive hothead. Poe has a desire to lead - the key scene is when they're announcing the new leader of the fleet as Holdo, and before her name is mentioned you can see him smile and begin to stand as if he expects them to put him in command. The whole gambit to Canto Bight to get the slicer which then spectacularly fails is the assault on the Dreadnaught from the start of the film writ large - the kind of action that a hothead highly skilled solider or flyboy can pull off on a small scale on their own, but isn't the kind of gambit that necessarily lends itself to successful larger scale leadership. By the end of the film, when the charge is seemingly being led by the Galaxy's most prominent Jedi Master, does Poe join the charge on an impulse? No, he realises something is up and facilitates their escape. I present you, character development. I think he'll go on to play a prominent role in Ep9 as a leader, in place of Leia.
- All of which is to say that, yes the Canto Bight thing did end up being a waste of time and completely meaningless - that was the point. It failed and Poe learned something. The quote by Luke (? I think) about failure being the key to success doesn't just apply to Rey. Unfortunately that does mean to some extent that Finn and Rose were sacrificed at the altar of Poe's character development.
- It occurs to me that it's likely that Holdo didn't tell Poe what her plan was because a) he'd been demoted, b) he'd just led a victorious but tactically disastrous attack on the Dreadnaught and c) the Resistance had no Starfighter corps left at this point - most of them had been wiped by Kylo torpedoing the hangar. Poe lacked a place in their makeshift chain of command and was already on the shit list of the upper echelons.
I'm seeing it again on Wednesday.
RE: What are the limitations of the Force?
In the movies we see Force users, but it may be possible for them to transcend beyond that and indeed essentially become gods as Force wielders. This idea appears in the Clone Wars cartoon series where Anakin and Obi-Wan once encountered three Force wielders known as the Father, the Son and the Daughter. These beings have transcended to a state so high that they no longer have any fixed physical form. They essentially became gods, so powerful that they knew that their power had become a threat to the temporal universe. As a result they chose to withdraw from the physical realm and retreated into an isolated ethereal realm where they could exist without damaging or destroying the outside physical universe. Time itself takes on a whole different meaning in the ethereal realm too.
And yet the Force-wielders that we see here seemed to struggle maintaining balance in the Force. The Father was a wielder of the Grey Side, the Daughter was Light and the Son was Dark. So while these Force-wielders (known simply as the Ones) were Force gods, they too had not achieved true balance. Would it be possible for Rey and Kylo to both become Grey Force-wielders and ascend as beings of pure Force energy? <shrugs>
Anakin vs Force-wielders
I was only comparing the tone, not plot or story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meister
I’ve just had my second viewing.
Without all the expectations, the hype and knowing the spoilers etc, I can now conclude that for me personally, it is a good movie. Not perfect, but not bad either. I would rate it between a 7 and 8 out of 10.
There's rarely such thing as a perfect movie. Realistically the best movies are a 9/10 so a 7-8 is pretty good IMHO. :) And that's how I'd rate it too.
I completely agree with this, this is actually what stood out the most on my second viewing, the whole Rebel storyline was all about Poe’s character development. He will no doubt become the leader of the Rebellion with Leia’s passing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
I must say I really disliked Holdo, or to put it more accurately, Laura Dern’s portrayal of Holdo, I think it was the weakest performance out of everyone. I also think her reaction to the first order firing on the escape pods was illogically delayed, she was already sacrificing herself, what took her so long to try and turn the ship around, it could just be brought down to the editing but there seemed to be a big gap for her reaction