griffin's T3 (Total Transformers Toy) checklist/counting method.

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Originally Posted by griffin

It's like the Blackout and Spaceshot example, they are listed as a pair, but neither is an accessory to the other. It's just more difficult to accept because the Minicon and partner robot aren't the same size. If you list the pair in words on a checklist, it makes it look a little more obvious, but as toys, it is a little more challanging to accept. Majority of people would get Sparkplug and Optimus together, and it would count as one toy because Optimus needs Sparkplug to be complete. If you got Optimus first, it is easier to see it as an incomplete toy, that counts as 1. If you got Sparkplug first, you would essentially have an incomplete Optimus-Sparkplug toy, but a playable incomplete toy still counts as 1. Getting the remaining figure in the pair is like getting missing accessories - it doesn't add to your score, it just lets you label the *toy* as 'complete'.

The Minicon issue was the hardest for me to reconcile, and I still would like to count Minicons separately, but if I did that, I would have to list all my large Armada toys in my records as 'incomplete'. This counting method purely aims to be able to classify EVERY item as 'complete' at the same time. Listing one toy separately as complete at the expense of another toy that needs it, leads to conflict and confusion among fans. Designating an objective measure is bound to meet resistance or rejection from subjective fans. After all, we are fans of the characters and the toys, not just the toys.

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Ahh. I get you now

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Originally Posted by SofaMan

I'm quite persuaded by some of the responses. I agree that ideally any criteria should to be clear, simple and few.

Bearing in mind however that when we poll on this, we only poll to the nearest 100, is using T3 rather than UCM going to skew the results significantly? Polling only to the nearest 100 already throws huge amounts of noise (around 5%) into the stats even for those of us with collections around or above the 1000 mark. Smaller collections of 200 or so could be looking at noise in the 25% range.

I guess I'm asking this: Is the margin of error generated by using pretty much whatever subjective (or quasi-objective) counting method seems best greater than the rounding error? Is it really statistically significant for comparison purposes?

If we're being entirely honest, any voluntary poll of this kind is only quasi-scientific anyway, since it's all self-assessed and reported. It would only be truly scientific if a disinterested 3rd party came to each of our homes and counted our collections using their own independent criteria.

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I'm not advocating a replacement of the fan-based UCM method with this toy-based T3 method, because the previous poll data can't be cross-referenced with new data that is acquired by different means.

Your comment about count variance - I think it would be interesting to see how many people who posted in the recent UCM poll actually followed the UCM method EXACTLY, and how many just submitted their own count based on their own personal counting method, and see if it would have changed the results anyway. In other words, if it doesn't change anything significantly, it probably wouldn't matter what counting method people use when submitting their collection count to the polls.

Just wondering if the Revoltech figures would count.
I know they were made by another company, but it would have been licensed. And they are toys

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Originally Posted by Golden Phoenix

Just wondering if the Revoltech figures would count.
I know they were made by another company, but it would have been licensed. And they are toys

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+1 on this and erm Mr potato head as Optimash counts, does he? But then Im a bit too lazy to recount my collection into this. Im gonna seriously loose a lot in the count - minicon, micromasters wise. :o

liegeprime: I'd like to see what your collection count would be under the Substitution Rationale system, which is similar to the UCM only that multiples and 'substitutable variants' don't count. ;) :)

Easy one first - Optimash Prime.
1 - Is it an official Transformers(tm) product (produced by Hasbro, TakaraTomy, Kenner, Tonka, GiGi, etc)?
Yes, it was produced by Hasbro (Playskool is part of Hasbro, like Kenner was part of Hasbro during Beast Wars).

2 - Is it a toy product (it's intended purpose is for it to be played with)?
Yes. It isn't like a statue or clothing. It was intended for really young kids to play with it.

3 - If it is part of a mult-pack, is it intended to be a stand alone toy, or is required to complete another figure in the pack?
There are actually two items in the pack (Mr Head and the Truck), but Optimash would be considered incomplete without all the accessories, which includes the truck. So the entire pack counts as one toy.

4 - Is it in a playable condition (must be the primary 'named' figure)?
That depends on what you have, but based on the other three items, Optimash Prime counts in the T3 count.

Revoltech is a little trickier, because I'm not sure if TakaraTomy produces them for whoever distributes the Revoltech line, or if they just license the Revoltech producers to create Transformers-branded products.
But we'll put them to the test anyway:

1 - Is it an official Transformers(tm) product (produced by Hasbro, TakaraTomy, Kenner, Tonka, GiGi, etc)?
Revoltech Transformers characters are either produced by TakaraTomy on behalf of a third party (like BotCon toys, Minivehicle keychains, Korean TFs, and some fast food toys), OR, TakaraTomy have licensed a 3rd party to produce Transformers(tm) products on their behalf (like most fast food toys, and some Euro TFs). Either way, they are official Transformers products, because they are authorised directly or indirectly by either of the 2 owners of the Brand. So that's a yes.

2 - Is it a toy product (it's intended purpose is for it to be played with)?
Yes. As poseable and displayable as they may be, most would play with them otherwise the highly articulated limbs would be redundant.

3 - If it is part of a mult-pack, is it intended to be a stand alone toy, or is required to complete another figure in the pack?
They are all sold separately (that I'm aware of).

4 - Is it in a playable condition (must be the primary 'named' figure)?
Again, this depends on what you personally have in your possession. But based on the above testing, Revoltech counts.

For testing of certain types/series of items to see if they count according to the T3 method, you only really need to test it against the first 2 items. The 3rd item is only really necessary for testing individual items for a list, while the 4th item is only necessary for items in your possession.
How easy is that? :)

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Originally Posted by liegeprime

Im gonna seriously loose a lot in the count - minicon, micromasters wise. :o

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I think it would be offset by all the non-convertable Toys that would now count in the 'toy collection'. For me, I lost about 150 with the Minicons and Micromasters, but gained about 250 with non-convertable toys.
This counting method wasn't aiming to find a way of increasing the 'quotable' count, so I was happy to only end up with a change of about 4.5% from my previous counting method.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

liegeprime: I'd like to see what your collection count would be under the Substitution Rationale system, which is similar to the UCM only that multiples and 'substitutable variants' don't count. ;) :)

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Well it (SRS) wouldn have that much impact on the multiples I do have. Being mostly are only Unicronians - Deluxe tank and Scrapmetal and a few terrorcons. Mebbe some of the G1 minibots. As these are the ones Im open to buy multiples of for my "in my head" neverending battle storyline and as youve mentioned different displaying logic.:D Um do you have a link to the SRS so I can take a gander on the so called differences with UCM? I know, Im lazy to use the search facility:D

I did some thinking T3 and initial counting ( like a skimming count) would prolly do not much damage counting wise after all since Ive got customized items which are mostly just repaints so should offset the count just fine. Also most of my minicons are from their own sets (of 3) and not partners of bigger bots since I really didnt like Armada and only got a handful of from this line, heck Ive even got more Beast machines stuff than Armada :o
But as Ive said Im a bit lazy to go about counting this now, would prolly do it on a day off ( with no housechores waiting on me :P) as Im a bit of a slow counter. Reminds me I havent updated my database, not that there's much to update it with though.

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Originally Posted by liegeprime

Um do you have a link to the SRS so I can take a gander on the so called differences with UCM? I know, Im lazy to use the search facility

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You wouldn't find it if you did - the SRS polls were done in 2005, long before this current incarnation of the OzFormers board came along. ;)

The SRS is basically the same as the UCM only that multiples don't count a "substitutable variants" don't count - e.g.: Universe Tankor and Henkei Octane count as 1 Transformer, not 2.

What of minicons, theyve had repaints - eg: the ones that form Starsaber and the ones that form dark saber - very same one but have different names in their "darkened forms" ?