THE OTCA Philosophy & Ethics Thread.

Cheetor underwent personality changes as he matured throughout Beast Wars and Beast Machines, each evolutionary step marked by a 'shell upgrade.' :)

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I forget, did the epsiode "Only Human" cover anything like that? How did Rodimus, Arcee etc react to being in human bodies.

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Only in terms of their physical limitations - they were otherwise unchanged... much like Agent Smith being loaded into a human mind. Strange how Spike's mind was severely altered when his consciousness was transferred into a Transformer shell -- seems that a human mind cannot stand being in a Cybertronian body whereas a Transformer's mind can happily habitate a human body! :p

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I used to like the idea (unsupported in the cartoon fiction though) that the Transformers were indeed gender-less throughout G1 until during the BW the Maximals/Predacons scanned male/female animals, and by becoming male or female animals that was the reason that they developed gender, an otherwise foreign condition to them.

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Yeah, I like IDW's explanation of gender in TFs with Spotlight: Arcee. ;) Waaaaaay better than her G1 origins in the Marvel Comics (worst Furman story - ever). :/

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Cheetor underwent personality changes as he matured throughout Beast Wars and Beast Machines, each evolutionary step marked by a 'shell upgrade.' :)

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Well that's interesting - it's only in Beast Wars and Beast Machines that we saw any recognition of the shell impacting the persona.

Cheetor became more aggressive as a result of the TM2 driver, and arguably as a result of the way it affected his physical form, rather than as a modification to his shell program. I always took it as if someone was given a dose of testosterone - they're basically the same person, but will make different choices as a result of a altered hormone level.

Certainly, Rattrap's persona was altered upon returning to Cybertron and realising that a) he had trouble transforming and b) he had no offensive capabilities. This forced him to become sneakier and more cautious.

Jetstorm was a completely new persona, but animated by the spark of Silverbolt. This introduces another element to TFs, in that the spark seems to contain separable elements of both the persona and anemos*. Silverbolt was changed as a result of his persona being hijacked by Jetstorm's shell program, causing him to act in a way that was contrary to his (that is Silverbolt's) normal inclinations. When he was 'restored' to being Silverbolt, he had to adjust to things he'd done as Jetstorm, and he became a markedly different character, as though he had awoken from a fugue state, yet had full recall of the choices and actions he had made while in that state.

Behaviour is an expression of personality. If behaviour changes, then there is some underlying physical or mental reason for that change. Conversely, if the body changes, so must the persona. Only the BW continuity made any recognition of this.

Tangetially, this reminds of some recent research that suggests that octopus do not have personalities, despite being quite intelligent. Scientists observed the behaviour of octopus for some time, and whereas in most animals you would expect to see a general pattern of individuals inclining towards either cautious or higher risk behaviours in response to stimuli, in octopus there was no such pattern. Individuals who would been seen acting in a cautious way to a particular stimuli could be observed to act in a more agressive way to the same stimuli in no observable pattern.

* In case I sound like a tosser, anemos is the Greek root of animus. Animus is understood in modern parlance as a Jungian term describing the persona, whereas I'm using it to refer to the 'breath' or animating force, which is what anemos translates as.

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Originally Posted by SofaMan

Conversely, if the body changes, so must the persona. Only the BW continuity made any recognition of this.

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Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines. Even though 'sparks' weren't called by that name until Beast Wars, presumably they have always existed. Do Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge still have the same sparks as Megatron, Bombshell and Thundercracker? Does Rodimus Prime have the same spark as Hot Rod? If so, their sparks' behaviour does seem to be clearly affected by their physical shells (or yes, by Unicron and the Matrix). In the Marvel comics, after G1 Ratchet turned Goldbug into Pretender Bumblebee, Bumblebee became more confident, a consequence of other Autobots looking to him for leadership on the battlefield for the first time (as stated in 'Yesterday's Heroes!') This suggests that Transformers' personalities are affected by their physical shell... so to speak. And even in these comics, in which the Decepticons were not speciesist or sizeist about themselves (they took orders from Ratbat as readily as from Shockwave, Scorponok or Megatron), I still find it unlikely that Megatron would be the same Megatron if he were in Ravage's diminutive quadrupedal body. (And I don't even want to get into the Straxus's-mind-in-Megatron's-clone thing, because that whole storyline does my head in as readily as it did his.)

In Beast Machines, Waspinator, Silverbolt and Rhinox became polar opposites in the bodies of Thrust, Jetstorm and Tankor. This could be a result of Megatron's 'shell programs', but both Thrust and Tankor demonstrate at times that they are in fact still the same 'person', they've just chosen to behave completely differently in their new bodies. Also, like G1 Bumblebee, Transformers are influenced both by their impressions of themselves and the impressions of others. Beast Machines Megatron was the same 'person' when he was a bestial dragon, diagnostic drone, an 'Optimal' Optimus and a BFHead. But he behaved and saw himself differently in all these forms (with disgust, embarrassment, kinky satisfaction and bwahahahaha-ness! Respectively.) And the Maximals reacted to Megatron differently depending on his form too.

Transformers history is full of examples where the same spark in a different body behaves differently. This could be for technological reasons or it could merely be the psychological result of feeling more confident or less so depending on one's current physical form.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I forget, did the epsiode "Only Human" cover anything like that? How did Rodimus, Arcee etc react to being in human bodies.

I used to like the idea (unsupported in the cartoon fiction though) that the Transformers were indeed gender-less throughout G1 until during the BW the Maximals/Predacons scanned male/female animals, and by becoming male or female animals that was the reason that they developed gender, an otherwise foreign condition to them.

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That's brilliant.:) Spotlight Arcee was a good one too, but this just blows me away in terms of sheer simplicity and elegance.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I used to like the idea (unsupported in the cartoon fiction though) that the Transformers were indeed gender-less throughout G1 until during the BW the Maximals/Predacons scanned male/female animals, and by becoming male or female animals that was the reason that they developed gender, an otherwise foreign condition to them.

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By 'unsupported in the cartoon' were you getting at the fact that the series explicitly contradicts this idea. For example, we know Tigatron scanned Snowstalker, a female tiger, yet he's a male Maximal. (With a female altmode. So in the US series I guess Tigatron was always somewhat hermaphroditic, and not just after he was combined with Airazor. :p)

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines.

[snip]

Transformers history is full of examples where the same spark in a different body behaves differently. This could be for technological reasons or it could merely be the psychological result of feeling more confident or less so depending on one's current physical form.

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Quite right too. Though I confess the examples you raised slipped my mind because I was thinking explicitly of sparks, and overlooked those earlier examples where sparks were not directly referenced.

Trying to milk consistency out of G1 though is always going to be problematic, since I don't think it was their biggest concern. For example, the weirdness with Rodimus Prime, who completely reverted, personality and all, to Hot Rod upon returning the Matrix to Optimus Prime. Really?? He didn't even get to keep that wisdom and maturity gained from a position of command? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

Jetstorm was a completely new persona, but animated by the spark of Silverbolt. This introduces another element to TFs, in that the spark seems to contain separable elements of both the persona and anemos*. Silverbolt was changed as a result of his persona being hijacked by Jetstorm's shell program, causing him to act in a way that was contrary to his (that is Silverbolt's) normal inclinations. When he was 'restored' to being Silverbolt, he had to adjust to things he'd done as Jetstorm, and he became a markedly different character, as though he had awoken from a fugue state, yet had full recall of the choices and actions he had made while in that state.

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Jetstorm's shell program wasn't that invasive... as Silverbolt would later lament, it fundamentally just stripped him of his chivalrous sense of honour - which is why Silverbolt felt such intense hatred toward Megatron for having psychologically raped him and also why he went emo and loathed himself for what he had become as Jetstorm.

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines. Even though 'sparks' weren't called by that name until Beast Wars, presumably they have always existed. Do Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge still have the same sparks as Megatron, Bombshell and Thundercracker? Does Rodimus Prime have the same spark as Hot Rod? If so, their sparks' behaviour does seem to be clearly affected by their physical shells (or yes, by Unicron and the Matrix).

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We don't know if the Matrix and Unicron also somehow modified or 'contaminated' their Sparks (laser cores) when they were 'upgraded.'

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

In the Marvel comics, after G1 Ratchet turned Goldbug into Pretender Bumblebee, Bumblebee became more confident, a consequence of other Autobots looking to him for leadership on the battlefield for the first time (as stated in 'Yesterday's Heroes!')

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That is true, although he fundamentally still saw himself as being just as "weak and indecisive" as he ever was.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...lscream013.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

This suggests that Transformers' personalities are affected by their physical shell... so to speak. And even in these comics, in which the Decepticons were not speciesist or sizeist about themselves (they took orders from Ratbat as readily as from Shockwave, Scorponok or Megatron), I still find it unlikely that Megatron would be the same Megatron if he were in Ravage's diminutive quadrupedal body.

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Yeah, it's about as zany as a ninja clan taking orders from a little brain, or a galactic empire being commanded by a crusty old prune. :p

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

(And I don't even want to get into the Straxus's-mind-in-Megatron's-clone thing, because that whole storyline does my head in as readily as it did his.)

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Yeah, but that's because his mind was merged with a copy of Megatron's, which was so powerful that it dominated Straxus' mind leading him to believe that he was actually Megatron. Wow, that is confusing. :p Anyway, it's another example of a persona being changed due to external trauma/interference (the external factor being the duplicate Megatron mind). Had Straxus perhaps had his mind transferred into a mindless clone of Megatron perhaps... btw, I personally retcon the Straxus-Megatron clone as "Megaplex." To me, my G1 Megaplex toy is that clone. ;) Hence...

Megatron->http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._cover_003.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._cover_202.jpg<-Megaplex
:)

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

Trying to milk consistency out of G1 though is always going to be problematic, since I don't think it was their biggest concern. For example, the weirdness with Rodimus Prime, who completely reverted, personality and all, to Hot Rod upon returning the Matrix to Optimus Prime. Really?? He didn't even get to keep that wisdom and maturity gained from a position of command?

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COSMIC MACGUFFIN'D! :D

Well, we seem to have exhausted this topic...did we want to give Paulbot's initial comment a going-over?

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

Eg. From the Transformers point of view spoilers for ROTF: I don't think Megatron killing Sam to help save their race is such a bad thing, but destroying the sun and therefore Sam's whole race is but I think this may be an unresolvable issue.

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I'm inclined to agree myself, a single life for an entire species seems more than fair enough to me. Even a species-for-a-species is arguably OK, subject to a variety of other factors. Where the blowing-up-the-sun routine crosses over into not-cool IMO is that there are a lot of different life-forms on Earth, so blowing up the sun would wipe out all life on Earth and thus many species rather than just one. Likewise, there are a lot of other stars around, most if not all without life, so it's not like there weren't alternatives...which seems to be (spoiler)where the other Primes came into conflict with the Fallen.

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

I'm inclined to agree myself, a single life for an entire species seems more than fair enough to me. Even a species-for-a-species is arguably OK, subject to a variety of other factors. Where the blowing-up-the-sun routine crosses over into not-cool IMO is that there are a lot of different life-forms on Earth, so blowing up the sun would wipe out all life on Earth and thus many species rather than just one. Likewise, there are a lot of other stars around, most if not all without life, so it's not like there weren't alternatives...which seems to be (spoiler)where the other Primes came into conflict with the Fallen.

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On the face of it, I take your point. However, Megatron was clearly being deceptive as he was not being entirely open about his reasons for wanting to kill that one individual. As a consequence of killing that single individual, the entire planet would be rendered lifeless. Even though Prime did not know Megatron's full purpose, he knew that his reasons for seeking it were not noble, "You'll never stop at one".

Secondly, the circumstances that TFs find themselves in where their race is in a precarious survival situation are largely of their own making. Should they be entitled to wipe out a sentient race or enitre biosphere every time their own poor choices come back to bite them in the arse?

I was watching Beast Machines last night - the episode where Megatron's Spark starts absorbing other sparks (before it becomes depolarised by Nightscream) - Megatron's persona remained completely unchanged. His Spark seemed to gobble up other "lesser" sparks like Pac Man eats those orange balls (which I'm sure are urinal cakes). Later when Megatron transplants his repolarised Spark into his Optimal Optimus body and stands atop that pyramid with the harvesting machine inside its apex (sound familiar?) he is again absorbing Sparks into his own, but without any seeming effect on his personality. Megatron earlier states that his intention was to merge all Transformer Sparks into one single conscious mind - his own.

I was also reading one issue of The War Within earlier today - and it states that Devastator, as an early generation gestalt, has a screwed up mind comprised of Cybertron's six sharpest minds; and Defensor, being a later model, seems to operate at a higher level of rationality. Devastator effectively operates at the level of "Hulk Smash!"

Another topic I'd like to continue discussing is about the hidden curriculum in Transformers - other examples of things like racism, misogyny etc. One thing that came to mind is female Transformers. On one hand they were created as an act of political correctness to introduce affirmative female role models into Transformers (other than dansels in distress). This has been done well in some ways, but also questionably in others.

A lot of female characters in TFs are pretty forgettable (neither memorable in a positive nor negative way), but here are some that stand out to me:

+ Carly Witwicky (née Farley*): She was pretty cool in the pre-movie episodes where she was portrayed as an equal with Spike; often saving his butt from peril. But things kinda went downhill after that. Well first she went and had Daniel... and became an ambassador for Earth, only that we never see her really do anything exciting. I guess Earth must have really good relations with other planets! She'd be more interesting if she had to go around resolving tense political situations like Leia Organa-Solo in Star Wars (we need a real Star Wars Transformers Crossover story - where perhaps the EDC and the Transformers have to deal with the Yuuzhan Vong; they'd totally see the Transformers' very existence as an offence against their gods!) - her portrayal in The Headmasters animé was even worse. Like when there was some stupid plot device that could only be resolved by a human -- Carly and Daniel were there, so they had a choice; send in a grown adult or a child. They sent the child... possibly because a boy clearly outranks a mere woman (in feudal Japanese society male children eventually outrank their mothers, so in a way this act could be seen as a rite of passage for Daniel's manhood. Carly? She's just a woman, she don't matter! <Fabio.laugh> (^O^)).

+ Female Autobots: Arcee and Ariel/Elita-One are notorious for being entirely pink. Except for Firestar, the others are done in soft pastel colours too. Furthermore, they have lipstick (though some male TFs have facial hair which is equally ridiculous). Then there's their body shape - they all have really sexy womanly curvacious bodies! Oh, that's totally not objectifying women at all, nuh-uh! It amazes me that they haven't used any of these characters in KISS Play yet. In The Headmasters animé Arcee was essentially portrayed like those "bridge bunnies" in Macross... or as a personal secretary to Fortress Maximus. But not on equal terms with other Autobots in that series. Wheelie sees more action than she does. (-_-) Her Animated namesake was a tragic yet interesting character... it was interesting how Autobot command saw her as expendable, but Ratchet refused to give up on her. I want her toy, damnit!

+ Female Decepticons: Only appearing in the Victory manga, their portrayal was even more misogynistic than the female Autobots as their function had nothing to do with being warriors; not medics; not teachers -- their role was child-rearing. Yeeeeeeepp!! :D They should right a book about female Decepticons in G1 entitled, "A Woman's Place." :p

+ Minerva: I think her portrayal was alright - she's essentially on par with Go Shuta and Cab. The Headmaster Juniors were second fiddle to the Pretenders and Godmasters, but I don't think she was ever really portrayed to be of a lower station or lesser importance than her male Headmaster Jr. counterparts. The role of the Autobot Headmaster Jrs. was primarily search and rescue, not direct combat.

+ Mega: Again, I liked her portrayal - essentially an equal partner with her husband Giga. Sure, she liked to flash her cleavage from time to time... :p

+ Blackarachnia: characterwise she's actually quite positive. Strong, independent etc. - she even resented having to be rescued by her lover Silverbolt! :) But her visual appearance is another story - like the female Autobots, she's also 'bootilicious'... in fact, arguably even more so. Heck, the animator who designed her was taken to a strip club to draw inspiration on how to modify the Tarantulas model into making it more feminine! Evidently it worked... yay hormones. d: At least she's not pink. Her Transmetal 2 toy had high-heels and an actual... um... breastplate - with that controversial bra! zOMG, I can't believe the fuss people were making about that toy's so-called "boobs" coercing Hasbro to afix glue into her bra-plate to prevent people from removing it! Although her show model is bra-less!! <facepalm> Having said all this, there's nothing inherently wrong about having a Transformer with a feminine body shape - it's no more or less logical than having a masculine body shape considering that Transformers are physically genderless. And some would argue that it's an affirmative thing - to have a female hero who isn't ashamed to also be a woman (as opposed to heroines who try to be masculine, like say Mulan and Éowyn in LotR until the moment she slayed the Witch-King and, removing her disguise, declared that she was "no man").

+ Airazor: Characterwise she's well written - a peer with her fellow Maximals. Formwise she's actually androgenous! So much so that in Japan she's male! :) Her Transmetal form is definitely feminine though, but done in a more tasteful way than Blackarachnia; e.g.: her "breasts" are more ambiguous (so she doesn't need a bra), she she has more subtle feminine curves and no high heels (which means she can run!).

+ Botanica: Totally portrayed as being on par with her fellow Maximals. Her form was effeminate yet not buxom. Damn I want a toy of her!

+ Stryka: The first female Transformer who dared to have a physical form that does not exude femininity. Heck, she looks more butch** than her male counterpart Obsidian! :) But she's not just a male character with a woman's voice either - the episode where Rattrap jacks her into that machine that let her view scenary allowed Strika to momentarily show the audience a glance of her more feminine side as she stood and marveled at the beauty that she beheld. Her Animated form had lipstick though. :/

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*Yeah, I'm lying about Carly's maiden name being Farley. It's hilarious though ain't it? lol! :D
**Strika looks like she could rip your head off and unload waste Energon down your throat!