Nightfall vs Sofaman! :D
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Nightfall vs Sofaman! :D
He's more likely to rest on Sofaman counting his energon chippies til he falls on temporary shutdown hehehehQuote:
Originally Posted by kup
Actually... that's not a bad idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
In Sabretron 2004 we had four exclusive unlicensed toys (given away free to attendees) -- all based in Australia with an Australian themed background story, but they've never seen any fictional appearance aside from the toys. If you like I can give you the characters' names and profiles and you can use them in your story. The toys themselves were repaints of G1 Bumblebee, Cliffjumper, Brawn and Windcharger (called Spectre, Breaker, Muckraker and Minesweeper respectively; they were part of an Australian-based group of Autobots known as Chainmasters) -- but you could simply get an artist to draw up some models that happen to look similar to these character moulds, but not quite the same. Similar enough that fans would recognise them, but different enough that you're steering away from Hasbro's property.
The names and personas were stuff that we'd created, so Hasbro's never owned them. :) Heck, we're seeing IDW doing something similar with the "Circuit Smasher" character (since the G1 Circuit Breaker character is still owned by Marvel).
Whether you'd like to run with the Chainmasters or just create your own original characters is up to you -- but I like the idea of making them "Not-Transformers." ;) You could even ask someone to design Not-Autobot and Not-Decepticon logos. :D
You could even have established characters appear, but just make them look obscure -- like have Optimus Prime or Megatron covered in darkness, and what you can see doesn't look exactly the same (just as what they do with third party comics)... then just have them referred to as "Commander" or "My Lord" or whatever, but never by name.
I like this idea. :D
This would allow you to have your exclusive comic and sell it without impeding on Hasbro's IP. Maybe you could also have posters, keychains, badges etc?
Here's an idea for an exclusive toy, but I don't know if it's any good. Go to your local Asian markets/stores and buy up a butt load of those cheap transforming robot toys -- you know those ones that look like they're not made by a licensed manufacturer but aren't really knock offs. Some of them may have a head or arm or something that's KOed from another toy, but the entire figure itself isn't a bootleg. Kinda like Roadbots, only cheaper (although Roadbots are pretty inexpensive - but I think they're licensed... those cheap Chinese ones look unlicensed to me). Go and repaint those toys and sell them as exclusives.
If you're worried about them being possibly licensed, here's another suggestion (and you might be able to do this with Roadbots or even Transformers if you choose a small/cheap enough mould and order a caseload wholesale (you might be able to order a caseload from Hasbro??)); repaint the toy(s) and include them as free gifts with the exclusive comic. You just may need to charge more for the comic book, if you get my meaning. <cough> But make it clear that you are only selling the comic book which doesn't contain any of Hasbro's IP - arguably an expensive comic book - and include the toy for "free."
...remember when I said that all the free exclusive toys and comics were only available to attendees at Sabretron 2004? i.e. People who had already paid to attend the convention? Yeah. ;) This has been done before with exclusive toys where for some legal reason the toy couldn't be technically sold... so technically they weren't. e.g. Rook and Tap-Out... both toys were initially given away as freebies to pre-registrants for BotCon Europe 2002 and BotCon USA 2002 respectively (and later on made available for sale on 3H's online store when the legal issue was cleared up).
So if you like, go grab some shelf/peg warming Legions/Legends Class toys, have some volunteers repaint them (that's what we did for the Sabretron figures - they were all hand painted by volunteers) and then get an artist to draw a "Not-Transformer" version of that toy that looks recognisable but is different, then include that character model in your exclusive "Not-Transformer" comic book. Sell the comic book and include the toy as a 'freebie.' ;)
Cosmos hasn't had a production run since 2005 but I guess it could still be available, but last year they reused the Pretender Bumblebee shell and that surely hasn't been reproduced in nearly 20 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
That's what they did in 1984. Those mini-bots in the cartoon look similar to the toys (in vehicle mode), but in robot mode it's a bit of a stretch. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
This all sounds so freaking awesome! I love it.
I can draw, but I've never attempted comic art. But I'm sure I could do it. I mean, I drew this on Australia day because I was bored.
Wow, you should be bored more often ;)...Quote:
Originally Posted by jena
Wow! You are very talented!Quote:
Originally Posted by jena
That's pretty damn impressive artwork.
Awesome work. Love the saints.Quote:
Originally Posted by jena
http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/...herTriumph.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by jena
That's bloody top work Jena! :eek::cool:
I would say if you could build the funds up and buy the stock instead of doing a fan stall have an actuall proper business stall at the convention, sell products. Be like the gifts for the geek guys hell they even get celebrities as well at their table and sell autographs and photos. But you would have to buy a licence from hasbro to do so though.
And that's where every single attempt at this has either been hindered or fallen apart. The best thing to do is just to exclude hasbro altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
You exclude them and then if they find out they can sue the forum or even worse the owner because sold property that was their's and I don't think any one wants that other wise it's stealing and if we're stealing I won't help out on that because I just don't feel comfortable and I don't want to take any part of that sorry. I will help in any other way but if it comes to merchandise or sales or anything illegal I just won't be part of sorry. No offence to any one but morally I can't and for my future career I can't have any criminal records at all.
Isn't that a little melodramatic?Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
They can't sue us if we are not using their property. Hasbro does not own nor have sole rights to transforming robots. If we dont use any of their properties, we are perfectly legal.
It still sounds fishy to me and with me trying to get into a career that does criminal checks and one person here already said hasbro almost sued them for a fan based comic book I am sorry but no I can't and won't and I don't think it's being melodramatic at all.
This would fall under fair use (Admittedly, Goktimus' idea is stretching it, and I'd be wary of it, but that still doesn't fall under this category).Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
Any action would be civil, even if it WERE wrong, so nothing would show up on a criminal record.
Fan conventions happen all the time. There's things you can do, and things you can't. It's about finding the right line, being respectful of the IP you're wanting to celebrate, and being able to offer people a great experience.
So your scenario could only happen if a very narrow set of unlikely circumstances were met.
As for Goktimus' idea, well, it is technically viable, but not for me. It would fall too close for me to feel comfortable. But that is simply my opinion.
Look at something like the 'Mosaic' series of one-page stories. It's been going for years, with Hasbro's knowledge, no problems. There's just an internal editing procedure to make sure they stay within certain boundaries (no porn etc).
I don't see it as 'too close'. That assumes that Hasbro owns the transforming robot license and that's not true.
Hasbro owns Transformers but not the concept of transforming robots. Heck, even the general 'G1 Transformer aesthetic' is not owned by Hasbro. As long as you keep your characters original and do not use any trademarked imagery or terms, you are perfectly legal and not 'getting too close' at all.
That's because we explicitly used Transformer characters, likenesses, names etc. It was because at the time I mistakenly thought that Hasbro AU had given me approval -- it was an honest mistake and not done intentionally. Hasbro understood this which is why they took no action other than a verbal warning.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
I'm not an expert in intellectual property law, but isn't there some kind of 'fair use' thing where if you change a certain proportion/percentage of an image, then it's no longer their property?
Hasbro does the similar things for trademarks they don't own, for example the Generations Straxus toy was called "Darkmount" because Hasbro couldn't secure the rights to the name "Straxus." Likewise "Jazz" is called "Autobot Jazz", except in Alternators where they couldn't even secure that name (because I think that toy also falls under the category of replica car), so they had to use the name "Meister." IDW's introducing a character called "Circuit Smasher," which appears to be their version of "Circuit Breaker" - a G1 character still owned by Marvel Comics (there's speculation that Circuit Smasher may be a relative of Circuit Breaker rather than being Circuit Breaker herself... himself... umm...)
The comics and posters should be easy enough to do if you tweak the character models enough - as Paulbot pointed out, Marvel/Sunbow did the same thing in the G1 comics/cartoon... look at Jetfire/Skyfire -- they had to make the comic/animation model look drastically different from the toy otherwise they would've been sued by Harmony Gold for "ripping off" Robotech.
As for the toys... I think it should be okay so long as you explicitly state that you're giving them away as freebies. As I mentioned before, it's been previously done before with BotCon exclusive toys that 3H weren't able to secure sales rights for like Rook and Tap-Out.
But anyway, if any of this concerns you seek professional legal advice before proceeding. In NSW there's a service called LawAccess which gives free legal advice -- I'm sure there are equivalent services in other states.
Alternators Meister wasn't called 'Jazz' because that was the name of a different model of car, at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
'Fair use' wouldn't apply here. I think I know what you mean, but it's the wrong term. 'Fair use' would cover me if I was doing a review of a book you'd written, and I included short paragraphs from the book to illustrate my point. I can't just copy the WHOLE thing, but there's a certain amount I can copy for this review, that falls under 'Fair Use'. That's just one example.
It's also a fine line between a homage, and a swipe. Artists and creators have been struggling with that one for centuries.
Also, Jetfire wasn't changed because he would have 'ripped off' Harmony Gold, but more due to the fact that toy couldn't be solld in Japan, so they wanted it altered. That's from what people have been able to piece together anyway, there's still a bit of speculation involved. But Hasbro had the rights to the toy, so they could use it.
If I remember correctly, my uni lecturers always used to say that if you change something by at least 10% it's fine and that was when I studied graphic design aka the industry of professional copycats. My understanding was that you could basically steal anyone's logo or whatever as long as you changed it in some way.
Also the japanese figure of darkmount is called straxus and to my understanding I thought takara and hasbro were in some sort of partnership in that deal or something. I'm sorry but no I still don't feel comfortable with it and I don't want to be sued for stealing of a company sorry.
Also Kup once Hasbro I dare say knows this site so once they see the "NOT" transformers merchandise and then see the site we are from they will put 2 and 2 together and get us there so I will say no I won't be participating in this as essentially you are planning on making knock off items of any merchandise which is against the law. Also that is against all convention policies and rules of merchandise rather it be sold or given. I say Knock off becuse if sold that is what it is, you can draw up the comics and posters and give them away but you can not sell them and if you plan on selling I wont be part of it.
So I can't do my own transforming robot event just because I post in a Transformers dedicated message board that happens not to be officially affiliated with Hasbro?Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
Sorry but again, Hasbro does not own the concept of transforming robots, they own the Transformers franchise. Therefore anyone is free to create their own unique transforming robots characters and stories as long as they don't infringe on copyright.
An originally created transforming robot character in toy form or fiction is not automatically a knock off - Hasbro does not own it and have no grounds to sue me. Actually, if they decide to rip it off themselves, I would have the grounds to sue them since it is my character not theirs.
I understand your concerns and respect why you would stay out of such a project but I still think that your statements are a bit over the top. You are assuming that if anyone that happens to post on this board creates their own transforming robot character fiction and publishes it, they are automatically infringing on Hasbro's IP - To me that is unreasonable.
That's because Japan and US have different trademark registers... often Takara can use a name that Hasbro can't because although Hasbro cannot acquire the name in the US, Takara can -- and sometimes vice versa. For example when Takara reissued Perceptor in the Transformers Collection series the toy was called "Cybertron Perceptor". Likewise Henkei Inferno is called "Cybertron Inferno." When Hasbro lost the rights to the name "Ravage" they used names like "Battle Ravage" and likewise "Shockblast" for "Shockwave" (although they seem to have regained the rights to those names now).Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
"Straxus" is most likely a name that was available for Takara to use, so they went ahead with it (although only hardcore G1 fans in Japan would get the reference since the Marvel Comics weren't available in Japan) -- but Hasbro couldn't secure the rights so they went with Darkmount.
Hasbro and Takara do have a partnership where they co-own the Transformers brand, but they can operate independently for their respective markets - hence why both companies will develop lines exclusively for their markets. e.g. Car Robot was originally developed by Takara just for their market and likewise Beast Machines was developed by Hasbro for theirs (even though later on both of these lines were "cross adapted" as RiD and Beast Wars Returns respectively).
That's your choice. Most of us here aren't legal experts anyway, so I think the best thing to do for anyone thinking about doing this is to seek advice from a professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
Hasbro's been aware of OzFormers for a long, long time. One of Hasbro AU's executive employers was a member here for a while and Hasbro designer Eric Siebenaler has attended events/meets with members here.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
Also, third party items aren't counterfeits; so it's more of a legal gray area. As kup said, Hasbro doesn't own the rights to transforming warring space robots -- heck, Transformers weren't even the first. Tonka's Gobots/Machine Men came before Transformers. And we still have other lines like Road-Bots and in Japan there are HEAPS of transforming mecha franchises outside of Transformers. In fact, Transformers was born from "ripping off" other transforming robot franchises like Diaclone, Microman, Dorvack, Mechabot-1, Beetras, Macross etc.!
A counterfeit is legally defined as something that is fraudulently made in imitation of another product and passed off deceptively as the real thing. If you create your own transforming robot - even if it bears some resemblance to a Transformer but is still pretty much your own creation, then ... well it's arguable/debatable if it's made "in imitation." I guess it depends on how much the robot/character resembles an existing robot/character from Transformers. For example, the Third Party Arcee toys are absolutely made in imitation of the G1 Arcee character model (even though it's not an imitation of an existing toy) -- thus HasTak would have reasonable grounds to claim that it's a violation of their IP. The same might be said about other third party toys based on HasTak characters too -- all those third party action figures out there like the Not-Insecticons, Not-Reflector etc.
But what we're suggesting here is NOT creating character models based on any existing Transformer characters - but rather creating unique transforming robot characters and portraying them as warring alien robots. If we're not going to bother with any toys, then we can be very creative with the designs and we don't need to make the resemble any existing Transformer at all. There's no way Hasbro could take legal action then, no more than they could take legal action against say Road Bots or Machine Robo... other people are allowed to make their own transforming robot characters, just as long as they don't look like any established Transformer characters.
You can sell them if they're your own unique creations. If they're drawings of existing characters then yeah, I'd say give them away as freebies - which is something I've always been advocating anyway - and that's what we did at the Sabretron 2004 convention as you may or may not recall. Attendees paid for admission to enter the convention, but once the toys and comics arrived they were given to all attendees free of charge. Likewise at subsequent stalls/booths at conventions I've only ever given away exclusive comics and toys as freebies - like when they participate in an event, or as a lucky draw prize. With the exception of SupaNova 2003 (which was an honest misunderstanding and not deliberate) all exclusive merchandise have been given away as freebies.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
But I don't see any legal problems with selling merchandise if they are unique/original creations not based on any images or likenesses owned by Hasbro. Hasbro cannot claim ownership over something they don't own!
Take this for example...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...cecreambot.jpg
This is a transforming robot I once drew... he transforms intofaeces^ice cream. His name is"Unchigar" in Japanese - the English name is "Scattor", but let's change it to "Scat-bot" (since Hasbro owns the literally crappy name "Scattor" :p)^Ice-Cream-Bot.Oh, and let's say we get rid of that Decepticon logo on his chest -- replace it with a silhouette logo of a pile of poo. Right.Now if I were to sell post cards of this transforming poo-bot under the name of"Unchigar" and/or "Scat-bot"Ice-Cream-Bot, Hasbro wouldn't be able to take legal action against me because this is MY original creation! He's NOT based on any Transformer character... so Hasbro doesn't own the design, I do.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we should makeScat-botIce-Cream-Bot the mascot for the convention booth or whatever... this is just an example. :p Look at the Animania mascots - they were intentionally created as "generic" look anime characters, but not based on any actual Japanese anime character so that they wouldn't need to pay royalties. It's as seemple as that. :D
Yeah but lets face it, if you did this approach you will be using character designs that make you instantly recognize the robot and the alt mode as well. Hey you guys said you were at SMASH! a few years back, what year was that because I have been going for a few years and I remember once seeing a crap load of transformers there and during the auction some one auctioned of a huge box of transformers, I missed out on buying that box because I ran out of cash sadly lol.
You keep missing the point that we would not be using recognizable Hasbro characters but original creations.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_josh
You can say that again. Yet again this thread is going around in circles. I'm sorry but Josh, if you don't want anything to do with this, then please just leave this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
Personally, I see no problem with designing our own transformer ozformer robots. I'm a teacher, I have annual criminal checks, but I'm not freaking out here. Calm down and get creative or leave this thread so the rest of us can brainstorm some ideas.
I'm out.
I do NOT need to see a picture of transforming faeces, done by an adult. That's sick and unnecessary.
Disgusting.
Yeah that drawing is not in good taste and I don't particularly like it myself but as Gok said, he only used it as an example to illustrate his point to Josh not as something we might use for any event that we may go forth with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat
I take it you guys never played with Tamagotchis, those things made poop look almost cute. I don't find cartoon poop offensive. Harden up guys.
just an idea.. kinda stupid. But if you're looking for ozformers transformer design ideas, you could try some beast wars like transformers that have australian native animals as the alternate modes. Or other stuff that disguises itself as australian icons, stubbies? a ute? a generic holden commodore or ford falcon ute transformer would be awesome! obviously you wouldnt design it to be identified by ford or holden but you get the idea yeah?
That could work as a mascot but not for an actual comic story. It would be a bit too cheesy I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by GL-Sideswipe
Yeah I was meaning for a mascot, aussie beast wars comic would be way to cheesy aha.
Go back over a decade and I was working on Aussie Beast Wars characters and designs. But now I fear digging them up :oQuote:
Originally Posted by GL-Sideswipe
Don't get me wrong, it is cheesy. But I still think its awesome. I would love to see some australian predacons and maximals :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Paulbot
Hell yeah! - Red-backs, Red-bellies, Crocs, Goannas, Huntsmans, Wasps, Bull-Ants, Quolls, Tasmanian Tigers, Koalas, Roos, Platipi, Blue-Tongues etc. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by GL-Sideswipe
There is an absolute stack of possibilities with our native fauna. ;):cool:
I like the idea of the typical aussie ute. It could go one step further and add some kind of rum related stickers on the back, some horns, massive flood lights and you have yourself a bogan roo shooter-esque aussie ute.
We already had redneck chavs in Dark of the Moon with the Wreckers... don't think we need more. And I'm personally not fond of pushing the Bogan or "Crikey!" croc-hunter stereotype (-_-) (besides it's arguably already been done with Outback)
With the Autobot Chainmasters we had four different kinds of Australian themed characters (again, feel free to use them - though you'll need to modify the robot mode images/logos to make them look more 'unique/original' unless you plan on giving the comics away for free).
------------------------------------------------------
AUTOBOT CHAINMASTERS
(Tech Spec Profiles by Jhiaxus, artwork by Lynx Traveller)
Background Story:
When the Decepticons sent the clones Pounce and Wingspan to Australia in order to steal uranium for use in nuclear weapons, Optimus Prime assembled an elite team of Autobots to stop them. They were so successful that they have since been permanently stationed in Australia, defending the great Southern continent from Decepticon attacks!
SPECTRE
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...er_spectre.jpg
FUNCTION: GENERAL
"Protect the land and you protect its inhabitants."
At 1.8m, Spectre is the smallest Chainmaster. Observes human culture using a holograph field to disguise himself as human. Loves the land and is protective of its people. Guided by Aboriginal elders, has assumed Chainmaster leadership. Able to use holograph field to resemble any creature or object, or to create dazzling light show to temporarily blind opponents. Uses hypno-chain to inject foes with hallucinogenic techno-venom. Chain is prone to leaking, exposing Spectre to his own venom
Strength: 8 Intelligence: 7 Speed: 5 Endurance: 9 Rank: 6 Courage: 10 Firepower: 8 Skill: 8
BREAKER
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...eakertechs.jpg
FUNCTION: AQUATIC SPECIALIST
"Ride the ocean wave."
Used to the ocean waves, Breaker was horrified when reconfigured for Australian operation as a car. Specialist in aquatic environments, hates being confined to the roads. To compensate, has become an avid surfer. Can operate at depths of up to 100km. Built for crushing ocean pressure, armour can withstand enemy artillery fire. When not complaining about ill-chosen vehicle mode, Breaker is the most easy-going and fun loving of all Chainmasters. Shoulder-mounted chain used for close quarter combat.
Strength: 6 Intelligence: 7 Speed: 7 Endurance: 5 Rank: 4 Courage: 8 Firepower: 5 Skill: 7
MINESWEEPER
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...eepertechs.jpg
FUNCTION: DEMOLITIONS EXPERT
"It's always the red wire."
Former Chainmaster commander, the darker side of Minesweeper’s nature was accentuated due to accidental exposure to radioactive material: irrevocably damaging data tracks. Unable to fully trust his leadership, he was deposed and replaced by Spectre. Incredibly self-confident. Cool head and sense of practicality that makes him ideal demolitions expert, but socially deficient. Uses mini-missile launchers concealed on back in combat. Chain functions as a mine-detector in either robot or vehicle mode.
Strength: 8 Intelligence: 7 Speed: 5 Endurance: 9 Rank: 6 Courage: 10 Firepower: 8 Skill: 8
MUCK RAKER
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...rakertechs.jpg
FUNCTION: EXPLORER
"You don't know how far you can go until you get there."
Muck Raker isn't happy unless half-buried in a swamp, tyres churning through the mud as she pushes through uncharted territory. An explorer at heart, relishes the opportunity given to her by her station in the Australian outback. Fastest of the Chainmasters, especially off-road. Almost no territory she cannot traverse in either robot or vehicle mode. Uses Mud Blaster to gum up her opponents’ works. Uses grappling chain to get out of the tightest spots
Strength: 7 Intelligence: 6 Speed: 8 Endurance: 8 Rank: 4 Courage: 8 Firepower: 6 Skill: 7
Dont worry about the bogan thing Gok, I was kidding. I personally find all the typically aussie bogan stereotypes to be extremely embarrassing.
Yep, that and completely over done - Like taking things in the knee and having things over 9000.Quote:
Originally Posted by jena
That is classic Gok. The bio could readQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Name: Scat-bot
Allegiance: Evilbot
Class: Spy
Bio: Disgusting smelling, slimy, foul. These words fit Scat-bot like a glove. As a master spy he has a reputation for turning on his allies always leaving them exclaiming "what a piece of s**t. S**t sticks & he is without doubt the most distrusted Evilbot based on reputation alone