Martial arts discussion thread

I saw two martial arts demonstrations at a Japanese cultural festival this weekend. They were predictably disappointing for all the usual reasons. *sigh*

Issues with the first demonstration:
* typical over compliance from attackers - they would launch a single attack and then stop moving, obviously making it ridiculously easy for the defender to do their moves. The also made it super easy for themselves to be flipped over, like often as soon as they lost balance they'd roll into a fall (rather than trying to regain balance and stand their ground).
* their reverse breakfall technique left them extremely open to the opponent to start kicking/stomping exposed parts of the body (e.g. face, teeth, throat, body etc.) while they're on the ground
* the pacing was unrealistic - they'd move in kinda fast, but as soon as contact was made, everything became super slow. I can kinda understand that maybe they want to demonstrate the technique slowly at first so people can see/appreciate it better, but you'd surely only do that the first time... because they demonstrated the same techniques several times over - first was the Sensei with a partner, then all the students got up and started practising it. Surely with the latter part you can just do the whole thing at hardcore blitzing speed.
* general lack of any real aggression in the attacks - makes it harder for Joe Average to see how these techniques could work in an actual street fight.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._12_15_066.jpg<Haw! Throwing about attackers who don't really fight back is easy!http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._12_15_067.jpg
...on the plus side their katas were interesting (even if some of their stances were a bit sloppy - but I've seen way worse)

Issues with the second demonstration:
* Some of the students had belts with so many colours on them... it was like Technicolour Rainbow Belts! :eek:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._12_15_069.jpg"Someday we'll find it, that Rainbow Connection."
* When the black belts came to demonstrate katas, the commentator explained how these were more complex kata. But they really didn't look all that complex to me... simply had more moves and a few extra techniques, but it still moved at the same pace as the white belt kata - and still in that 1-2-3-pause, 1-2-3-pause timing instead of just continually flowing from beginning to end (as you would move in an actual fight).
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._12_15_068.jpg
* They showed sparring... where everyone looked like they were throwing random punches and kicks toward (but not actually at) each other. It went on for ages and nobody seemed the least bit interested in actually ENDING the fight in as few moves as possible (whatever happened to Bushido's motto of "one hit one kill"?) -- after the festival I spoke to a guy who agreed that these demonstrations were better when they used to fly in Karateka from Japan... because back then their version was literally just one strike, end of fight. One of the most memorable was watching a guy just deliver a really jolly good Maegeri (front kick) that floored his opponent. Fight over in a single move. He aimed straight for his opponent's core, whereas these people were mostly punching and kicking at each other's limbs... at best the hip, but nobody was going for the head or Dantian. *sigh*
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._12_15_070.jpg<I wouldn't even bother trying to defend myself against half of these attacks
* Board breaking... another non-traditional martial arts "gimmick" that seemed to impress the ignorant(1). The demonstrator had his assistants hold the boards at very precise positions - he would go around and correct them, checked the ranges as he walked around... and the people holding the boards didn't move as he walked around kicked them, and of course, the boards broke perfectly in half.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._12_15_071.jpg<I'd like to see him try that on solid oak

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(1) Because it's actually based on principles of physics (Newton's 2nd Law - impulse & momentum).
http://skepticalteacher.wordpress.co...-woo-required/
^Hey Bartrim, check out the second video in that link -- it shows a Japanese Chi Master who genuinely believes he can attack people with his Chi energy (and so do all his students who pay him loads of money) versus a skeptic in a full contact fight. :D :cool:

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

(1) Because it's actually based on principles of physics (Newton's 2nd Law - impulse & momentum).
http://skepticalteacher.wordpress.co...-woo-required/
^Hey Bartrim, check out the second video in that link -- it shows a Japanese Chi Master who genuinely believes he can attack people with his Chi energy (and so do all his students who pay him loads of money) versus a skeptic in a full contact fight. :D :cool:

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LOL. I've seen that video before. I laugh every time.

I found the last video more interesting... and funny. Although kinda sad. I can't believe people are that disaillusioned that they are willing to harm themselves to prove a point.

My sensei and I have agreed to disagree on chi. I'll be happy to go to class and learn about karate, pressure points, self defence and I even enjoy the MMA competitive Martial Arts but (a direct quote) "You throw one $%#@&*^& chi ball at me and I walk"

On a more positive note. I passed my last grading. Although I did get in trouble for agreeing with you about the pointlessness of grading as there were some very skilled guys there who were freaking out because they would have to perform 4 or 5 katas in front of a panel of judges. Myself and another Sempai from our academy were calming down about 6 guys (even though the pair of us were freaking out as well because we were in the same boat) and I quite loudly voiced how stupid I thought this was as obviously these guys have the skills but could fail because they freeze when having to do these "stupid" movements (yes I was stupid enough to use the word stupid:o) So I ended up on the end of a very stern lecture... I think. I actually let my mind wander while I was being dressed down:p Either way they punished me in the grading as I had to spar at the end and I was basically the guys I was matched up with were head and shoulders above me in skill so needless to say I got my rear end handed to me for 10 minutes. But I now have a brown and white belt which they refer to as 1st level brown and have the title Sempai. So yay for me:)

Here is another video of "The Yellow Bamboo" Chi masters at their best:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

My sensei and I have agreed to disagree on chi. I'll be happy to go to class and learn about karate, pressure points, self defence and I even enjoy the MMA competitive Martial Arts but (a direct quote) "You throw one $%#@&*^& chi ball at me and I walk"

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Yeah, there are elements of Chi that I agree with -- i.e. the stuff that can be proven to be real, but I don't subscribe to the mystical side, especially the idea of "touchless fighting." :rolleyes: To me, I see two main sides of 'real Chi':
* External: so stuff like pressure points and using principles of biomechanics like leverage, torsion, force, pliometrics etc. -- often when people are demonstrating how they can absorb and control "energy" during a fight, they're really talking about biomechanical manipulation.
* Internal: deep meditation and breathing control emotions by regulating heart rate and biochemical responses (e.g. release of adrenaline), ensuring that the body has adequate gas exchange (which in turn regulates metabolic cellular energy production) etc.
That's my personal understanding practical Chi anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

On a more positive note. I passed my last grading. Although I did get in trouble for agreeing with you about the pointlessness of grading as there were some very skilled guys there who were freaking out because they would have to perform 4 or 5 katas in front of a panel of judges. Myself and another Sempai from our academy were calming down about 6 guys (even though the pair of us were freaking out as well because we were in the same boat) and I quite loudly voiced how stupid I thought this was as obviously these guys have the skills but could fail because they freeze when having to do these "stupid" movements (yes I was stupid enough to use the word stupid:o) So I ended up on the end of a very stern lecture... I think. I actually let my mind wander while I was being dressed down:p Either way they punished me in the grading as I had to spar at the end and I was basically the guys I was matched up with were head and shoulders above me in skill so needless to say I got my rear end handed to me for 10 minutes. But I now have a brown and white belt which they refer to as 1st level brown and have the title Sempai. So yay for me:)

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Congrats on passing your grading! :D Disappointing to hear how they treated a grown adult like a child simply for expressing your opinion which you thought was valid. Even if they thought that the timing of the outburst was inappropriate, surely they would just say something like, "We'll discuss this later," and actually discuss it with you, instead of "How dare you disagree! Punishment!!" - sending a message to others to not even dare to think about questioning anything. I've seen that kind of attitude in some martial arts schools, which is something I don't like about the culture of some schools... to me it makes the school feel more like a cult where obedience is more important than rational thought. It's something that's been carried over from Confucianism (it's even worse in Japan if you think it's bad here). I think there are pros and cons to it though. Obviously the bad side is that they don't allow for individuals to express themselves and just talk down to people in a way that feels insulting. This aspect of Confucian culture can work really well if you have a really good teacher who knows what they're doing, and they don't do anything that makes you raise an eyebrow; so it's completely reliant on trust - in encourages that old school method of teaching where Sensei is a font of all-knowledge and you sit quietly and absorb his wisdom. But the downside is that nobody asks questions, and asking questions is an important part of learning. I think a good school needs to achieve a balance where students have enough discipline/respect to know when to be quiet and listen/observe attentively, and when is the appropriate time to ask questions -- and likewise teachers need to know how to accept and respond to appropriate questions.

That's something I liked about my former Chen Tai Chi school. Our teacher insisted on being addressed by his first name -- if anyone even tried to call him "Shifu," he would ask them to stop it and just call him by his name. No bowing, no uniforms... just rock up and train, and often people would rock up early or stay back after class (for over an hour at times) to have really interesting discussions where questions or whatever could be addressed in finer detail. Although often during class we'd have discussions too like during training, e.g. talking while practising forms or doing drills (multi tasking!).

who has footage on themselves training/fighting?

No videos, but here's a photo of me sparring with a Kickboxer/MMA fighter...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...eekinghand.jpg
I'm on the left; This shot was taken at the exact moment when I dodged his left hook and threw a wrist-strike into his groin. That ended the fight _real_ quick. You can see the way he steps in with just _no_ regard to defending/protecting his groin too. Might as well paint a massive target on the crotch. :rolleyes:

Btw Bartrim, I clicked on that last video (Secrets of Scams). Pretty cool/informative stuff. :) That middle video looks interesting too -- haven't checked that out yet.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

No videos, but here's a photo of me sparring with a Kickboxer/MMA fighter...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...eekinghand.jpg
I'm on the left; This shot was taken at the exact moment when I dodged his left hook and threw a wrist-strike into his groin. That ended the fight _real_ quick. You can see the way he steps in with just _no_ regard to defending/protecting his groin too. Might as well paint a massive target on the crotch. :rolleyes:

Btw Bartrim, I clicked on that last video (Secrets of Scams). Pretty cool/informative stuff. :) That middle video looks interesting too -- haven't checked that out yet.

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Why did you strike him in the crotch if you we're sparring

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Originally Posted by KalEl

Why did you strike him in the crotch if you we're sparring

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To give you a bit of context -- this wasn't in a formal martial arts school, this was just myself and some other people with martial arts experience getting together at a park for "cross style training". So different people with different MA backgrounds coming together to train together, including sparring with each other. As someone with a background in traditional martial arts, I've always been trained to fight "combatively", not competitively.

I'd trained with these people for quite some time before this sparring session, so he knew about my martial arts background. Also, before sparring and I strongly advised him to wear a groin guard, but he refused and just asked me not to attack his groin. If this had been done in a school the instructor would (should) have made everyone sparring wear a groin guard, or disallow sparring. But this wasn't in a school, so all I could do was strongly ask/insist on my partner to wear a guard, but nobody could make him do it. In the school I used to train in, if we sparred we HAD to wear adequate protection - shin guards, groin guard, body protector and head/face guard.

As I'm sure you'd know and can appreciate when we fight/spar, everything we do is on automatic -- there's very little conscious thought. Your training kicks in and you fight accordingly. There's no use in telling me, "Don't target the groin," because my conscious mind may acknowledge that, but my sub-conscious won't. In all honesty, I didn't even KNOW that I'd hit him in the groin until _after_ the fight was over and the other people spectating told me that I'd done it and showed me the picture evidence. As you know, that's how martial arts training works... it "programs" techniques into your sub conscious so that they can be executed without conscious thought if you are under attack. And my sub conscious wasn't thinking, "Go for the groin," it just goes for the easiest available target, which happened to be the groin.

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Originally Posted by KalEl

who has footage on themselves training/fighting?

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There are various photos of me getting my butt kicked at my school on our facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/Kumiai.R...lhaven?fref=ts

Aww man, I just watched that second video where the dude hacked his own arm!! XO Seeing the shock and disillusion on his face was classic (though it's a shame that he had to nearly amputate himself to realise it). But listening to his comments, I don't think it's going to make him change his mind, because he says something like how he was wondering why it was "taking too long to get into the spirit." <---it's just one of those statements that you can't argue with. It's _so_ typical of the attitude of "no touch" fighters that I've personally encountered!

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Originally Posted by Bartrim

Here is another video of "The Yellow Bamboo" Chi masters at their best:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

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^Brilliant! :D I love seeing videos of so-called Chi fighters taking on proper contact fighters!

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Found a fairly decent video demonstrating some basic fight applications for Yang Tai Chi Raise Hand and Single Whip here. :)