The Random Transformers Thoughts Thread

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

So for example, LG Weirdwolf gives you the equivalent of Deluxe Wolfwire with a repaint of Apeface's drone, but not Apeface! So let's say that the drone has a value of $5, cos it's really just half the set. That's a combined value of $35, yet 4000JPY converts to roughly AU$50. So I paid about fifty bucks for the equivalent of Wolfwire plus Apeface's drone but no Apeface! :eek: At least I didn't have to pay for postage for Weirdwolf. :o

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With the Legends and Unite Warriors lines, I don't disagree that you don't get as much toy for what you pay for. However one thing to consider is the pack-in comic. Comics take time, effort and creativity to produce compared to a trading card, like the one packed in with the Titans Return / Combiner Wars figures, and even then; the artwork is the same as the package art (or taken from other media, like the mobile phone games). While it is true that Generations toys have in the past included pack-in comics, these were re-packs of existing IDW comics, whereas the comics packed in with the Legends/Unite Warriors toys were original comics that were specific to the character and toy you were buying.

Although, to be honest, it does feel strange that Takara have chosen to sell the Titan Master heads completely separate from their respective drones. It's so obvious that the Rarigo drone (packed with Weirdwolf) is supposed to be Apeface, but it's a totally different character instead. You kind of feel for the Japanese fan who's scratching his/her head wondering, "why have Takara done this? Why couldn't they do what Hasbro did, and give Apeface his proper drone/transactor?"

Both Hasbro and TakaraTOMY are able to absorb the costs of added bonus content... cos otherwise it wouldn't be a bonus. ;)
e.g.
* Carded figures released in 1987 included a free Decoy and mini-comic and the toys cost the same as those released in 1986 (e.g. Aerialbots, Stunticons etc.) or reissued in 1990 (e.g. Throttlebots, Protectobots etc.).
* Hasbro's BW Optimus Primal vs. Megatron w/ bonus comic was 12.99USD whereas Takara's version without the comic was 1480JPY, which was roughly US$13 at the time, so basically the same price. I wasn't in Australia when BW came out here, but I know we got the European versions... I think that the EU version of Optimus Primal vs Megatron didn't include the bonus comic but still sold at the same Basic price point (i.e. they weren't cheaper than other Basics).
* Armada/Micron Legends and Energon figures all included pack-in comics without seeming to affect the price. e.g. Armada's Max-Con and Energon's Combat Class are the equivalent of the Deluxe Class and sold at the same price point, etc.
* All Henkei! Henkei! figures included pack-in instruction-comics and their prices were basically the same. It's little wonder why many fans (like myself) decided to go for the Henkei figures where, for the same price as a local Universe figure, you get nicer colours plus additional bonus content. Also, the Gentei! Gentei! figures which didn't come with the mini-manga that their Henkei! counterparts did, yet were dearer※.
* The Generations and Combiner Wars Deluxe figures which included comic books were sold at the same price point as the same version of the toy sold without the comic (in non-Anglophone Hasbro markets).
* The MP Coneheads come with a very basic instruction booklet & bio card; no additional story blurbs, extended bios or anything that other MPs come with, yet they're significantly dearer※.

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※We could factor in economies of scale in terms of the higher price, but I don't think that the exclusion of additional content in the instruction booklet has contributed to keeping these prices down.

From here:

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Originally Posted by Verno

Optimus Primal, the legendary general commander, that appears in BWII isn't Optimus Primal from the Mainframe TV show. They are in different universes. They share a name, but are not the same character. Thus, they warrant different numbers.

What was meant and intended by the BWII episode in 1998 was clearly proven to be impossible by subsequent fiction.

Two characters. Two universes. Same name. It's pretty straight forward really.

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The Gaea-based Maximals had to use the Cosmic MacGuffin^Teleport Gate to pluck Optimus Primal from prehistoric Earth, and at the end of the movie Optimus Primal had to be returned to Earth. The movie explicitly states this, referring to prehistoric Earth by the name it's given in the Japanese dub of the Canadian series, planet Energoa. At the end of the movie, it is stated that Optimus Primal had to return to prehistoric Earth and Apache explained that the MacGuffin's use was damaging time-space and that unknown forces had probably sent it to Gaea to be destroyed, so Lio Convoy's Maximals destroyed it after returning Optimus Primal.

The movie states that Optimus Primal was plucked from the prehistoric Earth, did what he did in the movie, then returned to Earth. This is a direct reference to the Canadian series which is the only BW series that is based on Earth. BWII is based on Gaea and BW Neo is based on numerous other planets (including Cybertron), but never Earth. The Japanese BW series adds stuff but never does anything which contradicts the Canadian series.

And I don't understand how it was proved impossible by subsequent fiction from the TV series. There's nothing in Seasons 2 or 3 of Beast Wars, or even the Beast Machines cartoon, which contradicts anything from the BWII or BW Neo movies. In fact, there are some elements between the Canadian and Japanese series which - admittedly by coincidence - happen to tie in together nicely. The IDW comics have rejected the Japanese TV continuity, but it also contradicts with parts of the Canadian TV series too, so it's really a separate continuity from the TV series. The Japanese BW TV series on the other hand do no contradict with anything from the Canadian TV series (as it is presented in the Japanese dub).

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Originally Posted by Verno

My first introduction to Beast Wars was the show. Not all of us were on the alt. toy forums throwing around the trukk not munky bollocks in 1996.

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Actually many of us were defending Beast Wars from the "Trukk Not Munky" mob. I was a member of the now-defunct BWADL (Beast Wars Anti-Defamation League) where we vehemently defending Beast Wars from its criticis. Groups like BWADL didn't last very long though, because once everyone started realising how awesome Beast Wars was, these groups simply became redundant. :) Beast Wars made believers out of its critics... whereas Bayformers makes critics out of its believers. :rolleyes: :p

While typing the above post, I was reading through my Beast Wars II encyclopaedia and noticed a photo of a much younger Yuki Hisashi on p.91. I hadn't made the connection before - and I've often talked about how a lot of design features in BW toys can also be seen in some MPs, but now it makes sense considering that one of the designers who worked on BW also worked on some MP toys! :D I'll scan and post the pic later, but for anyone else who has this book, feel free to flick over to p.91 and have a gander! :)

From here.

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Originally Posted by Verno

In Beast Wars II, Optimus Primal is called the "Legendary General Commander", and the character acts as such in the episode.

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Optimus Primal is frequently called and referred to as "Supreme Commander" or "Commander" in the Japanese dub of the Canadian series. "Supreme Commander" is the equivalent of calling him "Optimus."

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Originally Posted by Verno

In Beast Wars, Optimus Primal is new to the post of commander.

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Not... quite. Optimus Primal has always been commander, but he was initially the commander of the Axalon on an expeditionary mission, not a military one. And he also had dealings with the Maximal Council (re: Protoform X), so he was obviously a Maximal of higher ranking. The real shift in Beast Wars was from being a civilian commander to a military one. Also, in the Japanese dub of the Canadian series, Convoy was always called "Supreme Commander or just "Commander."

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Originally Posted by Verno

In Beast Wars II, Optimus Primal has the ability to turn into Burning Convoy.

In Beast Wars, Optimus Primal does not have this ability.

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ONLY when he combines the power of his Energon Matrix with that of Lio Convoy's. Optimus Primal would be unable to do this in the Canadian series as he is never in the company of another Matrix-bearing Maximal.

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Originally Posted by Verno

In Beast Wars II, Optimus Primal has an Energon Matrix in his chest.

In Beast Wars, Optimus Primal does not.

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We never saw the inside of Season 1 Optimus Primal's chest. I'm not saying that Larry DiTillio or Bob Forward ever intended for Optimus Primal to have a Matrix in his chest, but the presence of one in the BWII movie does not contradict the Canadian series. There's a greater contradiction in G1 where:
* in the comics the Creation Matrix was initially an intangible artifact in Optimus Prime's head which he could even transfer into a human's mind. It was later portrayed as a physical artifact in Optimus Prime's chest, like in TFTM, which also proved problematic as it meant that the Autobots had inadvertantly disposed of the Creation Matrix when they buried his original body in space (hence the Matrix Quest and the retconned excuse that the existence of the physical Matrix was a secret).
* in the G1 cartoon we saw the inside of Optimus Prime's chest which housed his Cosmitron. But in TFTM the inside of his chest completely changed as it explicitly showed him having a chamber to house the Autobot Matrix of Leadership.

There are NO such contradictions between BWII and BW. You need to show me something that is explicitly contradictory, not just something which exists in one story but not the other, because that alone isn't necessarily contradictory. An example of canonical contradiction would be like in the ending of Code of Hero where we see the original Rattrap cremating Dinobot's body, even though he should have been a Transmetal. This was obviously an animation error, but it still creates a visual contradiction in continuity.

P.S.: For the sake of argument, let's say that BW Optimus Primal and BWII Convoy are from different continuities, I'm not sure if this necessarily explains the separate numbering between MP32 and MP38 considering that MP08-X King Grimlock wasn't assigned his own separate number over MP08 Grimlock, and MP08-X is explicitly meant to be Grimlock from the G1 Marvel Comics (Earth-91274 to be precise), whereas MP08 Grimlock is meant to be Grimlock from the G1 cartoon universe, although the interchangeable eye colour gimmick means that he can also be from the G1 toy universe or any other universe with toy-accurate art.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

We never saw the inside of Season 1 Optimus Primal's chest. I'm not saying that Larry DiTillio or Bob Forward ever intended for Optimus Primal to have a Matrix in his chest, but the presence of one in the BWII movie does not contradict the Canadian series. There's a greater contradiction in G1 where:
* in the comics the Creation Matrix was initially an intangible artifact in Optimus Prime's head which he could even transfer into a human's mind. It was later portrayed as a physical artifact in Optimus Prime's chest, like in TFTM, which also proved problematic as it meant that the Autobots had inadvertantly disposed of the Creation Matrix when they buried his original body in space (hence the Matrix Quest and the retconned excuse that the existence of the physical Matrix was a secret).
* in the G1 cartoon we saw the inside of Optimus Prime's chest which housed his Cosmitron. But in TFTM the inside of his chest completely changed as it explicitly showed him having a chamber to house the Autobot Matrix of Leadership.

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I understand you guys are having a serious BW-related debate, but the above point reminded me of a something I use to find funny before I made this OCTA account.

The first time we ever see the Matrix is in the 1986 movie, but before that, there was a series episode (I forget which season) called "City of Steel" where the Constructicons dismantle Optimus Prime's body and reassembles him into an aligator. During the dismantling process, the Constructicons should have seen and held Matrix, but alas, it didn't "exist in continuity" at the time..

But I used to imagine how cool and/or funny it'd be if the Constructicons recognised the Matrix as they took Optimus Prime apart that time, and tried to integrate it into Devastator. When Scourge tried to integrate the Matrix into himself in "Hardest Burden to Bear" (season 3 episode), he became a monster (in the cartoon, the Matrix does funny things to Decepticons). Imagine what it'd turn Devastator into XD

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Originally Posted by FatalityPitt

The first time we ever see the Matrix is in the 1986 movie, but before that, there was a series episode (I forget which season) called "City of Steel" where the Constructicons dismantle Optimus Prime's body and reassembles him into an aligator. During the dismantling process, the Constructicons should have seen and held Matrix, but alas, it didn't "exist in continuity" at the time..

But I used to imagine how cool and/or funny it'd be if the Constructicons recognised the Matrix as they took Optimus Prime apart that time, and tried to integrate it into Devastator. When Scourge tried to integrate the Matrix into himself in "Hardest Burden to Bear" (season 3 episode), he became a monster (in the cartoon, the Matrix does funny things to Decepticons). Imagine what it'd turn Devastator into XD

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You're absolutely right, and this is yet another example of an actual continuity contradiction, which the G1 cartoon was chock full of. :o Although one of the greatest contradictions is the origin story of Megatron and the Constructicons. Initially it was shown that Megatron built the Constructicons on Earth, but then later we see the Constructicons build Megatron on Cybertron some 9 million years prior! :eek:

The fact was that many G1 writers never bothered to collaborate with each other or watch each other's work, so they all just made their own stuff up. :rolleyes: A few writers like Earl Kress and David Wise would "world build" and maintain continuity within their own stories, and hence we would see recurring supporting characters like Alpha Trion, Carly etc. And Kress did create Elita One and the female Autobots to explain that they exist, and hence why we see Arcee in TFTM.

And although Beast Wars had a team of various writers, Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio - as well as being members of this writing team, also acted as story editors. As a result Beast Wars was able to maintain far greater continuity discipline. The latter part of Season 3 may not feel this way, but that's because Hasbro notified Mainframe that this would be the final season of Beast Wars when they'd already finished writing half of the series and on top of the new toys that they had to introduce, Mainframe found themselves having to quickly wrap up loose ends of Beast Wars' rather complex story. Hasbro has a nasty habit of doing this to writers... it happened with:
* the G1 cartoon (hence why The Rebirth was re-written from a 5-parter to a 3-parter with episode 1 being a shameless toy advert)
* the Marvel comics. Twice (G1 and G2). Furman was evidently sick of it when they did it to him the second time that he poked fun at it by creating a character named Jhiaxus ("Gee, axe us"). ;)

Although they seem to have learnt their lesson after that, as I can't think of any post-Beast Wars series which had a rushed and loose ending. Transformers Prime did finish with some loose ends, but it didn't feel like because it was rushed to completion (but rather possibly because writers might've forgotten stuff... like how Airachnid is occupying Cybertron's moon with an army of undead Insecticons - this also seems to have been forgotten in the current RiD series (although I've only watched half of Season 2)). The live action movies have loose ends all over the place, but that's got nothing to do with Hasbro's mandate. :p :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Although one of the greatest contradictions is the origin story of Megatron and the Constructicons. Initially it was shown that Megatron built the Constructicons on Earth, but then later we see the Constructicons build Megatron on Cybertron some 9 million years prior! :eek:

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I think I missed the episode showing Megs creating the Constructicons on Earth..

MY version of the story goes like this: The Constructicons were initially created by the Quintessons/Vector Sigma/Whatever as building and maintenance robots who were morally neutral. Megatron was one of their earlier projects/commissions who later became 'evil' ("Five Faces of Darkness" episode flashback, Season 3). Years later, Megatron (their own creation) used the Robo-Smasher to brainwash them into destroying the Crystal City ("Secret of Omega Supreme", Season 2).

Of course, for this theory to hold, you'd have to ignore the fact that the Constructicons were wearing Decepticon logos when they created Megatron in FFoD...

But, as mentioned, this is just my own theory to help me make sense of the cartoon version of the Constructicons without losing my mind over where they came from..

Then again, this was the first Transformers cartoon which was rife with continuity and animation errors. Frankly, I don't think the show creators really took it that seriously either (except maybe people like David Wise, Earl Kress, and the voice actors). From the studio's perspective; it was just a 20 minute advertisement for a toy that will probably be forgotten 10 years down the road..

.. How little did they know..

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Originally Posted by FatalityPitt

I think I missed the episode showing Megs creating the Constructicons on Earth..

MY version of the story goes like this: The Constructicons were initially created by the Quintessons/Vector Sigma/Whatever as building and maintenance robots who were morally neutral. Megatron was one of their earlier projects/commissions who later became 'evil' ("Five Faces of Darkness" episode flashback, Season 3). Years later, Megatron (their own creation) used the Robo-Smasher to brainwash them into destroying the Crystal City ("Secret of Omega Supreme", Season 2).

Of course, for this theory to hold, you'd have to ignore the fact that the Constructicons were wearing Decepticon logos when they created Megatron in FFoD...

But, as mentioned, this is just my own theory to help me make sense of the cartoon version of the Constructicons without losing my mind over where they came from..

Then again, this was the first Transformers cartoon which was rife with continuity and animation errors. Frankly, I don't think the show creators really took it that seriously either (except maybe people like David Wise, Earl Kress, and the voice actors). From the studio's perspective; it was just a 20 minute advertisement for a toy that will probably be forgotten 10 years down the road..

.. How little did they know..

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Time travel! Separate timelines! There's probably some whacko way we can explain continuity in the Sunbow cartoon. :D

The only continuity in the G1 cartoon is "sell this toy this week".
Prime's internals get x-rayed in "A Prime Problem" and there isn't a hint of the Matrix. Fast Forward 12 months and all of a sudden we're expected to believe this uber-awesome cosmic megabomb has been part of Prime all along. He doesn't even get upgraded like Rodimus does when he takes ownership. Prime's just... Prime, just as Alpha built him in "War Dawn".
Prime also addresses Trailbreaker as Trailblazer and Spike as Splick in A Prime Problem. :rolleyes: