Questions that need Answering

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Originally Posted by Verno

Nah, I'd rather draw on the vast knowledge of my fellow TransFans for my own ends :p I do appreciate it, Gok, even if we do clash heads.

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It just seems like a rather ineffective way to get the information you seek, especially at the depth that you want too. It seems to me that just going to the original sources would give you the information you want faster and more effectively.

The entire G1 cartoon (US and JP) is available on DVD here in Australia thanks to Madman, and a lot of Marvel TF comics have been reprinted by Titan Books, IDW etc. I suggest that you give your local DVD and book stores a visit and see grab yourself some copies. :)

As for the Japanese BW cartoon... I'm not normally one to advocate downloading stuff off the interwebs, but considering that this stuff has never been commercially available here then... well... yeah <wink> <cough> <clears.throat> Oh, look at that time... ;)

There has to be a happy medium between 'read and watch EVERYTHING and take copious essay-length notes' vs 'Read the TFWiki, check their sources'.

You have to be reasonable. The Wiki does a lot of work to keep its work pure. Is it perfect? No. But it's a damn good resource. Even better when you use it to then verify its information (IE Okay So Ratchet first did this in TF US 9, let's grab that issue out and see).

It's a tough call between canon and fanon at times, and that's when you need to use your own judgement. What sounds most logical to you? What serves your story best?

How important IS this detail? Is it worth obsessing over, to the detriment of your work as a whole?

9 times out of 10, it's just minutae you're stuck on, and you've lost sight of the bigger picture.

Sometimes, it's about knowing what to exclude, NOT what to include.


PS Considering characters in the IDW continuity have used the Wiki, it's technically bullet-proof. :p (Text has been used on a cover before, and I think in an interior once)

TFwiki is fine in terms of giving you a basic and superficial understanding of stuff, but if you want to go into actual detail then I reckon there's no better way than to just access the original source itself.

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Originally Posted by Cat

Even better when you use it to then verify its information (IE Okay So Ratchet first did this in TF US 9, let's grab that issue out and see).

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That's not a bad way of doing it. Use the wiki to get a basic understanding, then go access the exact issue or episode from which they're talking about. It would save more time compared to just reading and watching G1 in its entirety... although reading and watching all of G1 is really fun (IMHO :D :)).

Plus there are pit falls if you only research canon in haphazard bits and pieces -- that's what Larry DiTillio and Bob Forward did when they researched G1 and G2 material for Beast Wars... they didn't have the time/inclination to go and read/watch all of G1 and G2, so they accessed G1 and G2 canon in bits and pieces; that's why Beast Wars mixes up some things from G1/G2 continuity and tends to fit in with the overall G1 continuity family rather than any specific G1 canon itself.

One arguably controversial thing that they did as a result of this was the portrayal of the Matrix in "Optimal Situation" - where we see Optimus Primal take the Matrix out of Optimus Prime's chest; and the Matrix is holding Optimus Prime's Spark. Primal then uses the Matrix to put Prime's Spark into himself (which mutates him into Optimal Optimus) and then drops the empty Matrix onto the floor and the Matrix vessel itself shatters! :eek: I gotta tell ya, when that episode first aired, a lot of fans were soiling themselves -- until it was clarified later online what had happened. Forward and DiTillio had only watched bits and pieces of Transformers The Movie -- i.e. up to the scene where Optimus Prime died, and at the time they wrote the script for Optimal Situation, they hadn't seen TFTM much further past that. They saw the scene where a dying Optimus Prime passed the Autobot Matrix of Leadership to Ultra Magnus and then saw Prime die after the Matrix was removed from him -- their conclusion: the Matrix was a holder for Optimus Prime's Spark... and that's the way it was portrayed in "Optimal Situation." Based on what they'd seen it made sense, but had they'd watched more of the G1 cartoon or read more of the comics and realised that the true nature of the Matrix, then they most likely would not have written the scene that way! :D

And I'm not trying to bag out Forward and DiTillio here. I have often said before that I really do admire them for even taking the effort to try and do some research into Transformers when they were writing Beast Wars. They weren't Transformer fans when they were hired as writers and they were completely ignorant of Transformers lore. They took it upon themselves to spend their own time and effort to talk to fans, watch cartoons, read comics and tech specs etc. to try and retro-fit Beast Wars into G1 and G2, and I will always truly admire them for taking that initiative (especially compared to so many TF writers today who just can't be bothered doing that and just give us continuity reboots).

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Originally Posted by Cat

There has to be a happy medium between 'read and watch EVERYTHING and take copious essay-length notes' vs 'Read the TFWiki, check their sources'.

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I don't take copious notes. I've just watched and read G1 over and over again more times than I can count... so it's all stuck in my head. :)

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Originally Posted by Cat

It's a tough call between canon and fanon at times, and that's when you need to use your own judgement. What sounds most logical to you? What serves your story best?

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Well it all depends on whether or not a fan writer wants to keep their story in-canon or not. Most fan fics are out-of-continuity because writers lack the inclination or whatever to maintain their stories in continuity (or a lot of times, they claim that their stories are in-canon, but they're still riddled with continuity contradictions anyway <sigh>). Others do write their stories in-continuity and actually manage to pull it off well.

It's up to the individual writer if they want to align their fan-story with official canon or just disregard canon and go with their own fanonical universe (in which case you can happily twist or ignore canon to your delight)

So we know that Bumblebee's have been shelf warming for what seems like an eternity now. So why then are retailers buying a truck load of Prime Bee's?? :confused:

Reminds me of an Einstein quote: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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Originally Posted by Doubledealer

So we know that Bumblebee's have been shelf warming for what seems like an eternity now. So why then are retailers buying a truck load of Prime Bee's?? :confused:

Reminds me of an Einstein quote: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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I think it's because the retailers don't understand the stock they are buying and what is actually selling or shelf warming.

For some reason the retailers seem to only identify Transformers as the 'Bumblebee line' and Hasbro panders to that because for them it sells (Hasbro to retailers). Then when the retailers see the peg and shelf warming Bumblebees, they don't see it as a Bumblebees failing to sell but as 'Transformers' failing to sell so they become hesitant on stocking more waves from Hasbro causing the present predicaments.

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Originally Posted by Doubledealer

So we know that Bumblebee's have been shelf warming for what seems like an eternity now. So why then are retailers buying a truck load of Prime Bee's?? :confused:

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Isn't that because once again every single case-assortment is Bumblebee-heavy? (Surely that's Hasbro's failing rather than the retailers'.) The Prime releases certainly have far too many Optimi and Bumblebees in each case. This is particularly a mistake, since they're both sufficiently similar to their movie counterparts that to your average punter they won't even look like new toys, just the same old shelf/pegwarmers in new packaging.

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Originally Posted by kup

I think it's because the retailers don't understand the stock they are buying and what is actually selling or shelf warming.

For some reason the retailers seem to only identify Transformers as the 'Bumblebee line' and Hasbro panders to that because for them it sells (Hasbro to retailers). Then when the retailers see the peg and shelf warming Bumblebees, they don't see it as a Bumblebees failing to sell but as 'Transformers' failing to sell so they become hesitant on stocking more waves from Hasbro causing the present predicaments.

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You could well be right Kup!

I'm not sure if this sounds completely bonkers or not but don't you think it would be in Hasbro's best interests to educate these retailers? I can only assume that Hasbro sells a retailer some stock, then the retailer comes back to Hasbro once they've run out (or are running low on stock). If that's the case, wouldn't it be logical for Hasbro to try and convince the retailer to buy what they think will sell the best? Hasbro should know their market a lot better than Kmart (for eg) and it would be win-win for Hasbro, the retailer and the customers. Win-win...Win. :p

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Isn't that because once again every single case-assortment is Bumblebee-heavy? (Surely that's Hasbro's failing rather than the retailers'.) The Prime releases certainly have far too many Optimi and Bumblebees in each case. This is particularly a mistake, since they're both sufficiently similar to their movie counterparts that to your average punter they won't even look like new toys, just the same old shelf/pegwarmers in new packaging.

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I totes forgot about this! So I guess that's the next question: What is up with Hasbro's case-assortments? If they want the retailer to continue buying new stock from them, that ain't gonna happen if they sell them shelf warmers. Confusing this is!

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Originally Posted by kup

Then when the retailers see the peg and shelf warming Bumblebees, they don't see it as a Bumblebees failing to sell but as 'Transformers' failing to sell so they become hesitant on stocking more waves from Hasbro causing the present predicaments.

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Are they hesitant to stock more though? I mean, the retailers wanted more Movie stuff (like that Movie Trilogy line) but Hasbro just couldn't get it. I think it's just that they aren't receiving stock to put on the shelves.

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Originally Posted by Quickstrike

Are they hesitant to stock more though? I mean, the retailers wanted more Movie stuff (like that Movie Trilogy line) but Hasbro just couldn't get it. I think it's just that they aren't receiving stock to put on the shelves.

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Obviously I don't have any hard evidence so I can only go by my own observation. I believe that the reason why we have so many Bumblebees from Hasbro is because the stores demands them. Possibly due to the incredible sales that the 2007 deluxe Bumblebee had and the huge demand afterwards that they have gotten stock with the notion that Bumblebee is what Transformers is all about. Hasbro basically exploits this by promising Bumblebees everywhere hence why there are so many Bumblebees for each case.

I think that Retailers wanted more movie stuff because they think it's popular and toy wise, they identify movie with Bumblebees and Primes hence all the releases and repaints.

Personally speaking, I don't think they are over Bumblebees and Primes despite the issues with the shelf warming toys from DOTM line. The reason why some waves were cancelled may be simply because the stores were still overwhelmed with the peg/shelf warmers so were reluctant to buy more. However I doubt that they would have learned their lesson and once stock cleared, they would end up demanding the same crap over and over hence the movie trilogy line.

There were some toy types that were release for the different movie lines that remained shelf warmers for months even years but despite this, the stores kept buying the same junk for every movie. To me, this shows that the retailer guy buying the stock from Hasbro is not really well informed of what works and what doesn't.

Transformers Prime Deluxe Wave 4. Finally - no Bumblebees! (Or Optimus Primes!) 1x Wheeljack, 1x Autobot Ratchet, 1x Knockout, 2x Vehicon, 1x Hotshot, 1x Airrachnid and 1x Deadend. It's one of the few times when it might be worth buying an actual case, since the only double is an 'army builder'.