Why are re-issues on ebay being AFA graded? :confused:
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Why are re-issues on ebay being AFA graded? :confused:
If any seller believes that they can make some money by placing an item in an acrylic case, getting it graded, attaching a sticker & outrageous price tag to it, they will.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcomp
Star Wars, G.I.Joe, G1 or reissue MISB/MIB/MOSC/Loose etc, they're all part of this scam of perceived value that the AFA has created.
http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/t...template=65827
i agree but as they say"a fool and his money are soon parted." i just don't understand how a misb item can be twice the price of the same misb item that hasn't been sent to AFA. i've also heard of horror stories of AFA actually damaging and opening vintage misb items and then not bothering to compensate the owner and of actually grading KO items too(if they claim that they are the toy authority, then they should of been able to pick them up straight away).
lol I've heard horror stories of kids opening G1 transformers back in the 80's. Stuff that nightmares are made of. Even worse of so called collectors swapping out accessories and putting them with transformers that are in better condition and then even selling them on! Call the police!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by iamirondude
The debate could go on for ever so I'll just post this and see how many members get their undies in a twist.
http://thumbnails101.imagebam.com/28...e283365113.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnertwin
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by iamirondude
AFA grading is a scam, as far as I'm concerned. :mad:
I would buy one of the MISB original G1 Jazz's that are on eBay at the moment in a heart beat, if it weren't for the fact that they have been AFA'ed. They've been there on eBay for months now. As much as I really, reaaaaallly want that collector's piece, I just can't bring myself to support that scam. Such a shame. :(
I could point to many transformers and transformer merchandise that have been on ebay for months so by your logic they all must be scams. If you want to pay a decent price for MISB G1 items you don't buy on ebay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
don't do that. you'll cause a riot. what i can't understand tho is that how can a piece that is AFA graded can go for 3 or 4 times the amount of the ungraded item(even if the ugraded item is in better shape).i can understand that you've gotta put a premium on top for the grading but won't it be just the same as going down to the local hardware and getting the perspex your self?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
You misunderstood my post. I never said anything about the price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
Also, the reason why I pointed out the fact that it had been on eBay for months was just to show that I have not yet caved in and bought it, even after contemplating it for so long. In the end, I couldn't do it, not because of the price, but because of the AFA thing. I just wouldn't feel good about it.
And hey, if you know of anywhere that I can source the vintage MISB G1 items that I'm after at a decent price, by all means point me in the right direction. I have looked everywhere and nothing.
who actually made them the toy authority anyway?were they always grading toys or did they start from something else like art or pottery and went from there. was there any other company that was doing it? when you are paying for a service like that and you send them your vintage misb/mosc figures you sure as hell don't want them opening them up like they did with 1 collector who had sent them a $4500+ sth american gi joe and they opened it and instantly they turned a $4500 figure into a $500+ figure. i know toys are meant to be opened but when it's 1 of only 10 or something like that you don't go opening it up.
Ha, well you can try casing it up yourself or even getting a company here in Australia but companys like AFA have got the cases pretty sussed by now and pretty cheap too.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamirondude
There is no real price difference other that casing/postage with items that are AFA 75/80 and the standard MISB ones you will find on ebay. The big ticket items are the 85's and 90's and these do go for a small fortune - mainly because collectors are competitive and many want to own the only example in the world or 1 of 5, want the wow factor etc etc Just like the neighbour who upgrades their car every year. :D
Hmm I guess they did? Lol that collector is an idiot. If someone can send a toy worth $4500 to AFA and then cannot fill in the associated form with it - saying do not open etc then they get what they deserve. Crusty old tape is a big cause of issue with collectors who send items to AFA, likely it was half off when it was arrived and AFA pulled it off as per their standard mo.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamirondude
Network. Message collectors who collect MISB items, find their contacts etc. For example a MISB Jazz could be found for $350-$400AU. Hes not rare and many collectors who want one have one. An AFA one would go for for $500-$550 Ask sellers if they would do a deal off ebay etc. It is a matter of trust and there is risk but the payoff can be well worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by iamirondude
AFA is a load of balls, when I first learned about them, I thought, yeah thats cool. But then I really thought about, and I wondered, who has made them an "authority"? Themselves and those who believe they have authority (the consumers) thats who.
I purchsed an MOSC Rippersnapper once and the card and bubble are sweet as, but it had been sent to AFA and deemed ungradable because there were some staple holes in the card that had been dotted in with black marker, the item is still in it's acrylic prison but I got it at a steal because nobody bidded on it due to its ungraded status. Crazy!! Its still an MOSC G1!!
It's amazing what you uncover just by talking to people, who know people, who know people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
It never hurts to send someone a friendly message. Be polite, be friendly, be a bit chatty (depending on the person), and you never know.
Ha you might have purchased that from me - to me if its been touched up its not Mint any more so its OSC - thats the same as the criteria for AFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfire in the sky
that's a good idea there. there's a perspex company here that's up near the airport and i might just head down there and see how much it would cost to bang up a couple of standard cases that you can join together and make a display of. with the collector what if he had done the paperwork all correct and properly but they still opened it up. if it was me i would be hunting down the turd that did it.
I look forward to seeing the quotes there could be some market for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamirondude
Just ask for compensation and as Cat said being polite will actually work wonders. Recently AFA have compensated a couple of situations where they have been in dispute with a customer. (both with the item being damaged somewhere along the line) Its just not good customer service if they dont.
i've gotta head down that way tomorrow for my weekly doc app so if i have time i'll stop in but what i might do is take down a couple of tf's and joe's and see how much different size boxes will be for loose and boxed examples and i'll post the quotes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat
Ah. I thought you may have known about a specific site or contact that actually sells them. Networking to find a specific item, especially a rare one, takes time and it can be a hit or miss affair. It's mostly via networking that I've come across items I never knew existed and didn't know I wanted, until I found about them through casual conversation. So that's really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
I'm surprised to hear that a 1984/5 MISB Jazz, and specifically one that is available for sale, is not rare. Is this true?
So, yeah... of course. Networking is always the best option. And it's fun, too. :)
It's so simple in it's execution, isn't it? Anybody with eyes, internet access & an opinion can be a toy grader. There's no recognized university degree that i'm aware of that you have to complete successfully, in order to display a diploma behind your desk that reads:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfire in the sky
Jetfire In The Sky
Master Toy Grader
Its the same with many different types of appraisers. Insurance assessors quite often don't even know what they are valuing for insurance assessments/claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnertwin
AFA is the only company really in the game and they get plenty of business so you can sit there and mock them and the collectors that like the service, but their making money and the haters, well they just continue to get even more bitter.
Rather than mock and be bitter about it, i'd like to know what you find appealing about having and/or dealing with figures that have been graded?
I've never seen an insurance assessor claim to know about the items they're appraising. Only about the type of insurance you're claiming against. I've seen AFA claim to know a lot about toys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
So they have a monopoly and can do what they want with no reprecussions, but fooling a few fans with more money than sense? It's great that you like them, and if you have the cash awesome (wouldn't you rather just get a bunch of MISB stuff for a fraction of the price?), but let's not pretend they're doing anything other than what they're doing; sticking toys in plastic cases to make themselves some high profit margins.
Well with tape sealed ones you know someone hasn't swapped parts out at some stage, they look great on display, the UV cases means you can almost display them anywhere with worry of someone doing damage (unless the drop it lol), the box art looks super shiny and you have something that is over 25 years in its original condition and giving the best chance to last another 25 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinnertwin
I collect both MIB and MISB figures - display wise there is no comparison.
There are many people here that claim to know a lot about toys too :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Gouki
They dont have a monopoly there are also places UK Graders who offer the same service. There are lots of businesses that make high profit margins with appearing to do very little. So im not sure what your point is, get back to me when you have some valid reasons to discuss.
Oh the cases are acrylic as well - not plastic.
I think what Sinnertwin is asking is, what do you find so appealing about having and/or dealing with figures that have been AFA graded, MIB/MISB or otherwise?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
Yeah but you can't play with it. Might as well just have a framed photo of the box. ;):pQuote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
Isn't that a given for any toy that's still mint sealed? :confused: Also, can't you just visually inspect the product for yourself by peeking through the bubble or window to make sure all the parts and accessories are right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
Or you could just not let other people into your collection room without your presence. My own family doesn't access my TF room unless I'm there (it's locked when I go to work). But more importantly... people you live with should be able to respect your toys to not go about dropping it. My infant daughter knows how to handle my toys with care, even G1s -- she's been like that since she was 2... and I've never had to teach her how to handle toys properly. It's probably from watching me play w/ my toys with care instead of bashing them around. Mind you... she can sometimes play with her own non-TF toys quite violently, but she's always VERY careful with the Transformers! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
Again, isn't this a given whenever you buy a toy that's MISB/MOSC? (unless there's been mishandling during shipping or shelving). I'm not sure I see the benefit of paying someone else to tell me something that I can easily judge for myself by just looking at it. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
Wouldn't glass shelving/cabinets/display units do a similar job in protecting your toys and keeping them openly visible? While the initial cost would be expensive, for a large collection would it be cheaper than getting every MISB toy individually graded and cased?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
I dunno... I just don't see the point to it. If I want to know the condition of an MISB toy, I'll just inspect it myself. If I pick up a toy w/ damaged packaging, I'll sift through shelves and pegs to find one in better condition. I don't keep any of my toys locked in display units (except for my gunformers for legal reasons) -- but the windows of my TF room are well covered that blocks out sunlight. I have to switch on the light when I go in my TF room, even if it's in the middle of a bright sunny day because there's so little light that comes into the room. Forgive my ignorance, but how does an acrylic case prevent photodegradation? (chemistry was always my weakest science :o)
^This. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Trent
- They look great on displayQuote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
- The UV cases means you can almost display them anywhere with worry of someone doing damage
- The box art looks super shiny
- You have something that is over 25 years in its original condition and giving the best chance to last another 25 years.
Better? :D
Very simplistic way of looking at it, if thats your logic you shouldn't be buying toys at all, just going round taking photos of everything! and you still wouldn't have the toy - they way it was produced and originally offered for sale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
It was only matter of time ...... thats the same for all toys on the market today. We are talking about toys that are older than 25 years and to find one still taped sealed is an effort alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Personally I think that is pathetic, you are barring people from going into a room without your mighty self being present. What if someone wanted to vaccum? What if for some reason someone had to come and do some maintenance when you were at work? You sound like you have put the fear of death into your daughter regarding your collection room so no wonder she plays with transformers carefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
This is so tiring, AFA cleans the toy and then the colours are brought to life when in the case, I cant explain it they just look better - just like our new house will before we put our furniture in it. :D Have you ever actually seen something that has been cased up in person?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Haters get stuck on the grades - 95% of the time the grade just confirms what the submitter expects. The other 5% AFA grade lower or dont grade at all because of an issue. I sent some carded g1s to AFA but they picked up the previous owner had touched them up with marker. I would have never of noticed it unless it was pointed out. The previous owner also confirmed this when I asked them.
Box flaps can bend, cards can warp, putting even a decoy on top of a G1 box for an extended time can make a small dent. As per my comment in the other thread not all MISB need to be cased up, I have a horrible MISB ulta magnus that just sits on my shelf waiting to be traded.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Ah so you do care about the packaging condtion and its not all about freeing the toy and playing? Why do you do that if you dont find looking at the transformer in its original packaing pleasing in some way?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Again the cases have rails to ensure box flaps and cards stay straight. A case wont prevent everything but its giving it the best chance to last and stay in the same condition.
But why send an item overseas to the AFA to be graded, which is expensive and an added risk (sending anything valuable overseas is, especially where it's out of your hands for a long time), when you can just buy or order a UV case elsewhere (preferably locally), for the primary purpose of protection or displayability?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
I mean, sure, a grade on an item means that someone else has already done the inspecting for you, but this doesn't always guarantee that they got it right. Also, if I'm concerned that the item isn't genuine say, I can always ask for a second or third opinion from fellow collectors that I can trust. But the AFA has now taken it upon themselves to be the authority on action figure grading, so they influence collectors into spending money unnecessarily on a "grade" as well as skewing the item's true market value. I mean, how often do you see precious antiques, coins and other collectibles encased and graded by an authority, then sold for a higher price because of it? I can't think of one instance where I have. So why should vintage action figures and toys be any different? To me, it's just a money making scheme where the AFA have simply found a niche in the collectibles market that they can exploit for profit.
There are a many greater things in life that have more risk than posting something overseas. You can buy sliding bottom cases from a few sources so if you do have something MIB or MISB that is always an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
I work part time at an auction house (1 day a week) and a nice display case really does increase the price. It doesn't matter if the item is still accessible or not. It does defy logic but that is what the market demands. Taxidermy, coins, photos, stamps all of them and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
Anyone who grades anything - on the boards here, ebay have taken it onto themselves to be the authority on that item. If someone grades a yellowed toy with a missing arm as mint or 8/10 everyone knows its not. AFA have turned it into a business, how long it will last is anyones guess, but if you are against companys finding market niches and a making profit you need to be out protesting at companys alot bigger than AFA! :D
Absolutely, that's my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
I have nothing against display cases at all, which is a separate thing to grading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
Of course, but I refuse to pay overinflated prices for someone else's authoritative opinion when it doesn't make an item any more valuable to me because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
I'm against companies finding market niches that they can exploit for profit. Meaning, they're not much use except to encourage people to spend money. The best way to protest something is not to encourage it, which I generally do already for anything I don't agree with.
I'm not sure who is being exploited here? The people who want to buy collections of high grade items? I dont think so - if somewant wants to spend thousands to have the only one in the world then good luck to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
You dont have to agree with what they are doing - hell I want to punch anyone thats asks me to donate money to a charity on the street becasue I dont agree how they go about it - but its people who are uninformed which annoys me and drew me into this discussion in the first place.
So you just dislike opinions when they are provided as a service? I'm lost. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
Well it does actually. The best example on TV would be Pawn Stars. They have all sorts of 'experts' they bring when they want to check something is real and these experts often offer the current market value. This is the way the world works - things are authenticated, you dont have to agree but this is what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
No... that has nothing to do with it. A high quality and/or rare item will always be sought after and valued, regardless of whether it has been highly graded or not. If someone wants to buy a graded item that's fine, but not everyone wants to, as per comment below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
I dislike it when the market becomes saturated with AFAed items that at the same time happen to be rare or hard to find. So as a collector, I either have to accept that higher priced AFA item because there aren't any others available (which I don't want to do), or wait until a non-graded, comparable item comes along, which may never happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
So to answer your question, the people who are going to be exploited are those who seek high value/rare items that are only available at inflated prices because the only ones they can get have been AFAed.
I did say "to me", meaning for me, personally. But I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
We'll you are in a bind then - if anyone feels expolited becuase of that they really dont know what the meaning exploited is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
Agree, once a MISB item is found it tends to get cased up, there are MISB collectors around who are not worried about getting their item protected but the majority are cased because well - that tape could fall off any minute and it could easily be damaged if its not protected! :D
But is also comes back if you want a MISB item enough you will find it - network make contacts, MISB transformers just dont drop of trees. Unless say the item you are looking for is just impossible to find MIB as well! :cool:
In general, exploitation is subtle and done on a mass scale, without people even being aware they're being exploited. In this case, the market is being introduced and slowly saturated with AFAed high end vintage toys. This is what I've been finding, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullcruncher
And yes, as I've already agreed, networking is great. And again, getting an item cased is separate to paying a high premium because it's also been graded.
Getting items graded is about preserving it in the same condition at the time it was graded and the score it gets roughly gives you an idea of the condition of the item. Im sure most of you have bought something where it was described as near mint and then when you recieve it, the condition was not as near mint in your eyes. AFA does not decide on the prices of AFA'd items, its what people are willing to pay for it by their own choice Also items that have been AFA'd looks really nice inside the case.
People... please keep in mind that everyone has different reasons for collecting what they collect (not just toys either).
Being too critical of hobby behaviours you don't understand or embrace, or even the mere profit motivation of third-party businesses that others solicit, can lead to defensive responses by others who are just enjoying the same hobby you do, in a different way.
If something isn't an actual criminal scam, and you don't use it to complain about your own experience, it is best to avoid/limit your opinions on it, especially if it is a legal business that people here use for reasons you don't have an interest in or value as significantly (investment, security, integrity, etc).
So first world explotation? :D There is no conspiracy, just market forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron
I just did a quick search for AFA 85 and AFA 90 MISB or MOSC vintage items less than 100 over many toy lines, hardly saturation. Something at saturation would be a G1 encore hoist or ironhide. Can hardly give those things away.