How critical was the first death of Optimus Prime?

After reading the interview with Ron Friedman today I'm left wonder just how bigger blow to the brand was the first death of Optimus Prime? I was born in '84 so I don't remember what the brand was like in the earliest years. My first exposure to the brand came from rented VHS tapes, and the first time I saw Prime die was traumatic.

I've heard different things over years from his death not making any change to sales and viewership, to it nearly killed the brand. Just how bad was Hasbro's mistake?

From what I read somewhere some time ago, it was bad enough for them to rework the Movie when it was later released in Europe and here, to include the narration at the end to say that he would return.
Or maybe it was an overreaction to both TFs & GIJoe movies killing off their lead heroes... and getting a lot of bad press over it.
There was even a claim that a kid was going to kill himself or refused to eat (or something) over the death of his hero Optimus Prime.
There's probably some articles online with a google search about the controversy (or on tfwiki.net).

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Originally Posted by DELTAprime

I've heard different things over years from his death not making any change to sales and viewership, to it nearly killed the brand. Just how bad was Hasbro's mistake?

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It wasn't a mistake in terms of the Movie itself - it's still one of the most iconic stories in the history of Transformers. And if it was a mistake the first time, why would they have kept killing him again and again for the past twenty-seven years? Do you think the Bible would have been better if Jesus hadn't died? Or Romeo and Juliet? Or Hamlet? Or Julius Caesar? If you found Prime's death 'traumatic,' that's because it was effective storytelling.

If there actually was a diminishing of popularity after the Movie, then what really happened was that for the first two years of Transformers, Hasbro didn't have to make new toys - they already had all these awesome toys from Diaclone, Microchange, Takatoku, Toy Box, Toy Co, etc. Then by the time of the 1986 line they had to start inventing their own toys, and generally, they weren't as good as the toys that they got to cherry-pick for 1984 and 1985. It could be argued that the absence of Optimus Prime hurt the popularity of Season Three of the cartoon. But it would be difficult to argue that it's empirically any worse than the first two seasons. And Season Three is in many ways about why Rodimus Prime isn't the leader Optimus was and why he had to return. (The exact same thing happened in the comics, except it was about why Grimlock wasn't the leader Optimus had been.)

Basically, kids have short attention spans and they age. But let's face it, there are those of us who have been constant fans since the beginning, and this is one of the few toylines other than Lego and Barbie that has had a toy on shelves for every single year since 1984.

So Optimus's Death? I wouldn't have had it it any other way.

Whilst i was upset with the death of Optimus Prime, I think I was more traumatized when I found out that they were canceling the Marvel comics.

If it wasn't for the death of Optimus Prime I would have never got an Optimus Prime toy and thus would have never started collecting Transformers toys

28 yrs later and over 1600 figures I for one am glad he died :p

As a child watching the movie, I was more frustrated with Hot Rod. Megatron has absolutely no qualms in slaughtering a shuttle full of Autobots, yet he just casually tosses Hot Rod aside.

Yet here we are almost 30 years later discussing it. Safe to say Prime's first death has made quite an impact

Note: I haven't seen the Ron Friedman interview yet. Following comments are based on my own personal experience and observation.

In 1986 I had the plot of TFTM spoiled for me before I watched it. At that age I didn't care about spoilers, and another kid at school had seen the film before me -- and in the playground I listened eagerly as he told me what happened. So I knew that Optimus Prime would die and that Hot Rod would become Rodimus Prime to replace him etc., and when I first heard about it my thought was, "Cool!", because to me it suddenly "matured" the story. Because as a maturing audience member, that's what you want from your story. You want it to "grow up" as you do, rather than continually appealing to that little child in you when you started. And this is clearly a direction that Sunbow writers took with the G1 cartoon after Season 2, not only by killing off a lot of characters, but also by setting it in the future and taking the story off Earth in Season 3.

As for the franchise itself, as Sky Shadow said, I'd look at the toy line. Another thing they did w/ the toys was to start introducing more fantasy alt modes instead of licensed vehicles (i.e. the core of the "robots in disguise" element). e.g. Bluestreak transforms into a Datsun (Nissan) Fairlady Z, a recognisable vehicle that you can see on the streets. Hot Rod transforms into a fictitious sports car with Michael Bay lovin' chopper flames and massive pipes on the sides, plus a huge spoiler on the back that puts modern aviation to shame. Then he becomes upgraded into Rodimus Prime transforms into a Space Winnebago(TM). The Decepticon jets were F-15 Eagles, or at least a modification of that... I honestly thought that Scourge was a boat when I first saw him. I didn't realise that he was meant to be an aircraft until after I watched TFTM! :eek: Then as G1 progressed they kept on making more fantasy alt modes (re: Targetmasters, Headmasters etc.). However by 1988 they went back to making more licensed vehicles; e.g. Porsche 959 (Nightbeat), AH-64 Apache helicopter (Spinister), Leopard 2 tank (Quake), Porsche 962 Le Mans racing car (Backstreet), B-1B Lancer bomber (Windsweeper) et al., but of course, the Anglophone G1 cartoon had already been cancelled the year before then, although the comics did continue for a good couple of years after that.

G2's attempt to revive the franchise in 1993-95 didn't work well. I think a large part of that problem was that it was too much like G1 -- bringing back old toys in weird colours? Okay. G2 did produce some good toys later on, and maybe if they'd just _started_ G2 with those kinds of toys it might've fared better, but sadly that wasn't the case. Market research in the mid 90s indicated that animal toys were more popular than vehicles with kids, and so Hasbro (via Kenner) released Beast Wars, which as we all know was incredibly successful (it became the third best selling boys' toyline in the US behind Toy Story and Star Wars). So when I look at the "fall and rise" of the Transformers franchise with G1, G2 and BW, it all boils down to the quality of the toys. And this is what displeases me with Hasbro's current direction in making Transformers a "screen first" franchise, allowing animators instead of engineers dictate the design of toys. :(

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Originally Posted by Sinnertwin

As a child watching the movie, I was more frustrated with Hot Rod. Megatron has absolutely no qualms in slaughtering a shuttle full of Autobots, yet he just casually tosses Hot Rod aside.

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Answer: Because the Autobots in the shuttle were no longer in production, whereas Hot Rod was a new toy that had to be marketed. ;) Oh wait, you mean an in-canon explanation? A wizard did it. :p

I was a hardcore fan as a kid until 1986 when two things happened

1. Hasbro Aus sent me a catalog in the post showcasing the 86 series of G.i.joe figures and vehicles. I assumed that was a message that TF figs were not going to be a priority for them. So I 'moved on' to modern military soldiers' like a good little consumer

2. The 86 movie poster had none of my favourite characters. I'm not going to see a movie without prowl or bumblebee or ratchet. Who were these weird looking autobots? And where was optimus prime? As a 9 year old I knew something was amiss. So yeah for me personally the death of optimus really impacted me and my interest ie collecting ;)

We'll done 80s hasbro

As the Friedman ( tempura anyone :p) interview said.... when executives signing the checks behave in a way of thinking they are doing something creative then things go wrong...Hasbro never knew what they had with Optimus, they never realized that it's more than just a toy to their buyers. But this is basically a good description of how decision making and how the buyers are viewed in the Hasbro top brass' mind.

We are just but numbers anyways in their accounting sheets, piechart percentages which is why their decision to kill Prime got passed. Yup, we have a new toy, don't worry we'll back it up in the cartoon promotions, the kids will love it as it says here in our survey 88% will so on and so forth.....only in the end yeah, um big mistake.... The "salvage" efforts in the voice over - "he shall return" in the newly mastered versions is more of a lesson learned the hard way after negative media feedback.

As for me personally, I guess since Prime never was my favourite character, him dying in the movie was kinda a , oh... ok, so now what? moment only for me. I was more upset that they killed off Starscream. Really. I was more upset when Cobra Commander mutated into a snake and had a petulant spoiled brat like Serpentor lead Cobra unopposed (or so it seemed for a while).
I looked at Prime's death at the time and actually thought... all that equipment they have around and there's a guy there (Perceptor) who supposedly has fixed a whole lot of really broken stuff before and now he can't even fix a side cut on Prime.... what a weak death IMO. He was barely even damaged, no torn off limbs or anything sputtering and leaking and yet a side cut kills him... weak.

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Originally Posted by liegeprime

As the Friedman ( tempura anyone :p)

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Dude it's pronounced "Freedmun" - it a Franco-Germanic surname meaning "man of peace." So naturally a perfect name for a person writing stories about warring alien robots. :p
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Friedman

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Dude it's pronounced "Freedmun" - it a Franco-Germanic surname meaning "man of peace." So naturally a perfect name for a person writing stories about warring alien robots. :p
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Friedman

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I know, Gok, :p;) but couldn't pass it up coz after reading the interview, I watched something on youtube about how to make a good tempura and somehow his Surnames spelling was so coincidental. But I do know how his surname is pronounced - it's the spelling I'm having a go at being funny at.... unsuccessfully I guess coz it seems to have flown passed you... Im being an-10-year-old-bully-in-school-playing-with-someone's-surname-mindset- at that time okaaay?

The death of Optimus Prime showed Transformers was an ensemble concept. Most of the other cartoons at the time had one star. You couldn't kill off He-Man, Astroboy, Inspector Gadget, Marshall Bravestarr, etc. Transformers could go on without Prime. Battles could have big stakes. The status quo could change signiciantly. There could be new Autobots to takeover (and new Decepticons to battle). This wasn't something you saw in many US cartoons at the time. It made Transformers something different, a bit more special.

And although they backtracked a bit too quickly it was possible for Transformers to go on without Optimus Prime toys or appearances. (Something I wish new series would attempt too)

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Originally Posted by liegeprime

I looked at Prime's death at the time and actually thought... all that equipment they have around and there's a guy there (Perceptor) who supposedly has fixed a whole lot of really broken stuff before and now he can't even fix a side cut on Prime.... what a weak death IMO. He was barely even damaged, no torn off limbs or anything sputtering and leaking and yet a side cut kills him... weak.

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Of course on rewatching you know it's more than a cut. First there's the barrage of weapon fire at his chest weakening the armour, then Megatron is pretty committed to hitting the same part of the body. First the spear, the cut to the same area, which exposes internal organs, and then Megatron shoots him in the same spot (twice). Whatever Cybertronian organs are there must be crucial.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

Of course on rewatching you know it's more than a cut. First there's the barrage of weapon fire at his chest weakening the armour, then Megatron is pretty committed to hitting the same part of the body. First the spear, the cut to the same area, which exposes internal organs, and then Megatron shoots him in the same spot (twice). Whatever Cybertronian organs are there must be crucial.

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It's something to look at then when fighting alien robotic life - blast them where the left kidney should be in human equivalent, that'll get them!! Even the strongest fall when blasted in the left kidney area :D:D

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Originally Posted by Sinnertwin

[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="3"]As a child watching the movie, I was more frustrated with Hot Rod. Megatron has absolutely no qualms in slaughtering a shuttle full of Autobots, yet he just casually tosses Hot Rod aside.

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I love that they killed Optimus (and that he later came back). I think that Megatron letting this Hot Rod kid live with the pain that he aided Optimus's death is a fine piece of cruelty and shows how little Megatron thought of Hot Rod's ability (pretty big in-movie mistake) and how focused he was to finally seize the opportunity and kill Optimus Prime.

It was genius writing that paved the way for a doubting leader (which was handled badly in post-movie episodes).

Damn i love this movie :cool:

Optimus Prime's deaths in the G1 comics were also pretty traumatic. The first time was when Prime allowed himself to be killed because - wait for it - Megatron had beaten him in a LAN game. Even though Megatron was exposed for having code-hacked the game and won by cheating. It's similar premise to "Heavy Metal War," only that in the G1 cartoon the penalty was exile, not death - and Optimus Prime agreed that Megatron's cheating voided the agreement. Whereas G1 comic Optimus Prime adamantly insisted on keeping his word and maintaining his honour, and that Megatron's hacking changes nothing. :o Snap. As much as I generally prefer the G1 comics over the cartoon, this wasn't one of the comics' more shining moments. :p Although Optimus Prime's second death in the comics, going Kamikaze into Unicron's maw while opening the Matrix, was pretty damn epic (arguably the most epic demise of Optimus Prime evah) . . . but of course, being bathed in Matrix energy during the explosion actually kept Optimus Prime alive (although shredded), allowing him to crash back on Cybertron and die a slow and painful death! :eek: It would've been more humane him to have just properly blown up and died from the explosion. Then of course Prime used his dying breath to whisper something to Prowl that he did not want to hear! Oh... if only he had a table to flip! :D Then Prime's death in G2 was just downright gruesome, with Optimus allowing the Swarm to consume him.

Prime's death in TFTM at least looked like a 'peaceful passing,' whereas his comic deaths were just painfully agonising! :eek:

Do you think they'd have let Marvel do a big death scene for Prime if he wasn't dying in the movie? I dont think so. It wasn't like they used his absence to sell Rodimus Prime or Ultra Magnus. Until #24 only Sunstreaker had been "killed off" and that was just an "unrepairable" state. (and I'm just talking toy characters in US Marvel of course, Marvel UK had a bit more loose Hasbro control). The big death in the movie was surely a driving point to do something similar in the books.

I never said otherwise.

Sorry, I meant that just as a general "do you think?" question to you and anybody, then gave my answer as part of my answer to the thread's overarching question. (what happens when you write on the train)

Well if they'll just keep bringing him back, the stunt (dying) is getting lame now. Although in the latest comics version (IDW) Prime has yet to kick the bucket. Although, there's been a whole other cast of characters that have been welcomed back to the Matrix.... other than O. Prime. Do you think the writers of IDW noticed that the Prime death is getting overused and somewhat, somehow am avoiding it coz of how it has diminished the nobility of the act? I mean every single time Prime will die... it's just getting so predictable now.. even TF Prime - he had to sacrifice. Thank goodness that wasn't the case in TF Animated.

But yeah, each time he dies it just gets lamer and lamer... now for the death of Prime in the comics - gruesome as it is (except the floppy disc one) NOW THAT is WHAT DEATH should be! Grand, viscious, truly epic and the more gruesome it is the more noble I guess since if you (Prime) knew that it will that painful, horrific and downright ugly and yet he still goes thru it, because it MUST be the only recourse.... then that is a noble sacrifice.

I still can't get my head around that a cut in the side even if it is a focal point just doesn't emphasized it at all. Coz you've seen him get blown, hacked into pieces and even more in all the other cartoon episodes and yet a small cut and he goes - pass the Matrix?!?! meh, lame.... mebbe a few more sparks and explosions and some short circuit scenes would've helped.

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Originally Posted by liegeprime

I still can't get my head around that a cut in the side even if it is a focal point just doesn't emphasized it at all. Coz you've seen him get blown, hacked into pieces and even more in all the other cartoon episodes and yet a small cut and he goes - pass the Matrix?!?! meh, lame.... mebbe a few more sparks and explosions and some short circuit scenes would've helped.

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They should've gotten Bay to direct the movie. :p;)

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Originally Posted by Megatron

They should've gotten Bay to direct the movie. :p;)

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haha, only for the scenes with Explosions!!!:D:D if he did the whole thing there wouldn't be any memorable dialogues or plot (as simple as it may be) just Explosions!!!!

These days I rarely watch the movie past Starscream's Coronation.

I really liked the fact that they decided to kill Optimus Prime off in a fight with Megatron.

I wasn't so keen on them bringing him back - I felt it made his death lose some of its significance.

As a kid, his death for me was one of those "sad but interesting / important" events that I enjoyed, because I felt that for once, finally, there was a sense of change in the Transformers series, something that I had been longing for (it just felt that at the end of each episode in the US cartoon, nobody really died and things stayed the same).

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Originally Posted by liegeprime

haha, only for the scenes with Explosions!!!:D:D if he did the whole thing there wouldn't be any memorable dialogues or plot (as simple as it may be) just Explosions!!!!

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And the Transformers would get much less screen time and dialogue. Most of it would be focused on humans^'Muricans! Autobot City would be a big NEST base, and it'd mostly be US soldiers (with a small handful of UK soldiers as a token "international" minority ;)) fighting the Decepticons, most of whom we wouldn't recognise in a pink fit, and the Autobots would be the Americans' sidekicks. Hoo-rah! Oh, and when Optimus Prime lifts off as he transforms to robot mode and spins in the air shooting Decepticons -- before he lands he'll get tangled up and spend the next twenty minutes being upside down before getting to Megatron. Devastator would come in like a pair of wrecking balls, and we would see at least one of the following actions from the Transformers:
+ lewd acts
+ urinating
+ farting
...and this would happen during really crucial moments too. "Springer <farts>, you and Arcee transform Autobot city. Perceptor, stop lubricating on that man and tell Blaster to radio Prime for reinforcements. Blurr..." <lewd.act> "...never mind."

Oh, and instead of becoming Galvatron, Megatron would be restored as... Megatron! Oh, and Daniel would be a good 8-10 years older, and naturally his mundane life would become a focal point of the story. And in the ending credits, Cyclonus would be called "Pointy," and in the actual film, Blaster would be called "Billy."

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Oh, and instead of becoming Galvatron, Megatron would be restored as... Megatron!

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And this alone would have made me want to watch the movie beyond the first 20 minutes.

We did get to see the Decepticons lagered up in the G1 episode Microbots. That was different :D

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Originally Posted by Sinnertwin

We did get to see the Decepticons lagered up in the G1 episode Microbots. That was different :D

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That was relatively subtle. Bay is about as subtle as a slap to the face with a live trout! ;)

It set the precedent of Optimus 'dying' and coming back to life a couple of years later, letting the heroic spotlight fall on someone more fallible and therefore story-wise more interesting during that time. Imagine how happy all the different TF comic writers over the past 28 years have been to know they could do that! Hell, Prime has risen from the grave more times than Zombies, Jesus & Shannen Doherty's career combined :D

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

That was relatively subtle. Bay is about as subtle as a slap to the face with a live trout! ;)

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No matter how much I hate ROTF and how many holes I can poke in DOTM I'm still going to see the very first showing of AOE in 3D.

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Originally Posted by BigTransformerTrev

It set the precedent of Optimus 'dying' and coming back to life a couple of years later, letting the heroic spotlight fall on someone more fallible and therefore story-wise more interesting during that time. Imagine how happy all the different TF comic writers over the past 28 years have been to know they could do that! Hell, Prime has risen from the grave more times than Zombies, Jesus & Shannen Doherty's career combined :D

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TF comics frequently showed leaders other than Optimus Prime and Megatron. Often those who were quite flawed, which made for some interesting story telling. Take Grimlock's first reign of the Autobots. He was initially reluctant to lead the Autobots, but they all insisted that he lead them - so in essence he was unanimously elected into the position. But absolutely power corrupts absolutely, and Grimlock became a horrible tyrant oppressing those under his rule who soon grew to resent the self-proclaimed king (who even had a crown and throne fashioned for himself). Except for his fellow Dinobots - they all thought Grimlock was brilliant. ;) On the Decepticon side you had Ratbat leading the Decepticons, a fuel auditor. During this time it was as if the Decepticons were under the corporate control of a CEO, who ran their organisation in some ways like a business. Heck, the Decepticons even turned their headquarters into a thriving part of the hospitality industry! :D

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Originally Posted by DELTAprime

No matter how much I hate ROTF and how many holes I can poke in DOTM I'm still going to see the very first showing of AOE in 3D.

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Same here! (only in 2D, I'm personally not the biggest fan of 3D moofies :p)

The first 2 times (comic and movie) they killed Optimus Prime it was like killing Superman, after that it just became routine. Also as good as the original animated movie is, the way it kills of all the old characters and then introduces a bunch of new ones to make you want to buy them, seemed terribly manipulative, even to me as a kid. I wanted to see more of my favourites on the big screen not a bunch of new guys from nowhere.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

On the Decepticon side you had Ratbat leading the Decepticons, a fuel auditor. During this time it was as if the Decepticons were under the corporate control of a CEO, who ran their organisation in some ways like a business. Heck, the Decepticons even turned their headquarters into a thriving part of the hospitality industry! :D

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Hey! During his tenure Ratbat generated the highest energon returns for Decepticon stockholders, through playing the market and slashing the Decepticon workforce. Why do you think we never saw Trypticon again (in the US comic)? Ratbat made this high cost warrior part of Decepticon redundancy.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Instead of becoming Galvatron, Megatron would be restored as... Megatron!

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This is a part of the movie I always had a problem with. Seeing as they combined Megatron's part along with some other new parts (and bot), he should have rightfully been called New Megatron. ;) :p

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Originally Posted by Paul Agnew

This is a part of the movie I always had a problem with. Seeing as they combined Megatron's part along with some other new parts (and bot), he should have rightfully been called New Megatron. ;) :p

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Or alternatively Neo Megatron :p

if they didn't kill prime no one would be talking or thinking about the g1 movie and the franchise would have settled into the grave right besides the remains of the gobot army

As a movie point of view, I loved it. During those times, the ONLY other cartoon where a hero dies was in Macross "Do you remember Love". I was shock as a kid to see a hero does die. Transformers was doing a usual routine,
Decepticons plot, decepticons flawed plans and decepticons retreat.

So when I saw the movie being shown in a shopping center I was glued to it and watched the entire show. Optimus dying was a mature approach and that time I was more pissed that Ultra Magnus is lousy than Hot Rod being Rodimous.

I believe "The Matrix" was hardly ever introduced before the movie so this actually made part of the story line in the other parts.

I do remembered they revived Optimus but then he headed towards the sun and somebody how again someone manage to rescue it?

There are two folds of the story, before death of Optimus, I actually felt the decepticons were stronger with Megatron. Ever since Megatron became Galvarton the decepticon were like a bunch of stupid fools.

For me, I never follow Transformers after G1 as the toys were not looking great for me. The Transformer RID did brought me some interests back and the Binaltech revived it for me along with MP-01

I of course do not doubt the experts here who have followed on transformers throughout the entire series.