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Hasbro Executive Brian Goldner has confirmed to the New York Times that the upcoming AOE toy line will mostly feature simplified toy designs but some that will feature more complex designs but will be aimed at collectors.
http://www.seibertron.com/transforme...on-toys/29167/
Basically he says there will be simple, gimmick based easy to transform toys for this movie. Just like there have been for all three previous films.
The main line toys, in deluxe, voyager and leader size (and maybe a Titan), will be more traditionally complex and released under the Generations banner to appeal to adult collectors.
Please don't judge the Generations AOE toys based on a simple gimmick toy photo. So much damning of a toy line that we've seen only one toy from is silly.
The explosion of the internet about this has been rather amusing.
I get the feeling that Hasbro are pushing simplicity in their message to win back a lot of the parents that were probably scared away with ROTF and to a lesser extent DOTM.
No doubt. I shudder to think of how many RotF Leader class Primes got returned.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraMarginal
Well... what are the two most popular eras of Transformers toys? Gen1 & Beast Wars - two eras of the simplest, playable (fun) toys.
As long as there are some "puzzle" figures for us older collectors, the main focus of the Brand should be on the target demographic, that will then stay on to also want the more challenging figures.
As we saw during the the latter half of the Noughties, the main line of figures were too challenging for the target newbies (kids) and parents to enjoy enough to buy more.
As long as the main line has the same level of difficulty as Gen1 and Beast Wars, we will see a return to popularity and an increase in fans... warranting more stuff after the movie line is finished to meet the new demand.
It's a compromise between the vocal minority (the dedicated fandom who want some challenging figures) and the silent majority of their consumer base (the kids and parents buying their first TFs toy).
We both win... so that has to be a good thing.
I'm optimistic, but like Paulbot says, until we see the FULL line, it is all just speculation at this stage.
This is definitely a good thing, for the franchise.
I thought it was established last year that Generations will be the single line tailored for adult collectors? So all WE need to need to do is keep an eye out for AOE figures released in Generations line.
I thought the Titan class were non transforming action figures, like the larger Avengers figures with little articulation.
I saw one returned stuck in mid transformation and I returned my 07 bumblebee when the auto morph got stuck because I forgot a step!Quote:
Originally Posted by CBratron
I just showed this to my 6 year old Son. He said a bad word when he saw it :eek: And that he does not want a babies toy. Wants real TFs he can fiddle with. Kids are smarter than this. But its really just Hasbro cost cutting making cheaper toys. Look at Iron Man 3 figures and the cheap new SW figures with 5 points of articulation. This is happening all across Hasbro.
But like they say the good stuff is in Generations for us. Gen is like our SW Black series.
It's an interesting problem for Hasbro, what level of complexity to make their toys.
I remember when I was a youngen, I got megatron. I must have been between 5 and 7 years old, I already had a few Transformers, Skids Thundercracker, Prime and some of the Autobot cars. Megatron I couldn't do. I got pretty frustrated but I asked my Dad for help. We worked on it together for probably 20 - 30 minutes and figured out how it was supposed to work. the high complexity gave us something to play/work on together and this is one of my fondest transformers memories.
@ Vert, you'll just have to point your son towards the Generations line.
If the simplified toys are more like the BW/Classics figures then it is a good option.
If the simplified toys are as simple as the gravity bots from DotM (stand up and a few panels swivle) or are simply oversized legends, then Hasbro will have shelf warmers on their hands (moreso than usual).
Kids are very finicky and picky with their toys, and most never want to be associated with toys that are deemed as "baby toys" in their eyes.
I have a heap of old toys in my classroomk for free play and wet weather and the toys that the kids deem "baby toys" includes good toys like duplo, some power rangers and ben 10 stuff, all considered by 7-8 year olds as not for them. The favourite toys? "real" lego, pretend shop/cash register and some transformers (battle pack Megs vs. Optimus, Energon/Cybertron toys.
If they can find a happy medium between FAB and TF1 for the majority of the transformations, it would be fantastic. Classics/Generations level transformations are perfect for young and old, with simpler transformations for legends class, harder transformations for some larger/collector aimed figures (as they have stated some generations figures will be).
Simple transformations are not the issue. Half assed cost cutted engineering is.
As Griffin mentioned, G1 and BW were not complex but still fun and clever (for the most part). On the other hand 'Stand me up, pull my arms and call me a robot' transformations suck donkey balls. When I hear the Hasbro Fat cat say that they are aiming for simplicity, I am reading 'Cost cut laziness'.
It is widely known that when a corporation means 'to simplify' they actually mean to cut costs nothing more.
I miss the simple days. As a kid playing with Transformers, I don't want a toy that takes more than a couple of minutes to transform especially when you have to make the transformation sound for that long ;) :p When I would play with my Transformers, the main appeal was to be able to convert them in 10 steps or less so I could move the scene along at a reasonable pace.
Looking at the AoE Prime Leader images, they appear to be advertising it as a 15 step transformation. -The RoTF Leader Prime had 25, first movie Leader OP & Voyager Starscream 14.
simple transformation = stand it up and its not a robot?
complex transformation = what we have already been getting?
cant possibly get a more complex transformation than the MP line?
I'd just do the G1 transformation sound in slo-mo while I transformed my Cybertron figs. :p;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 5FDP
I actually enjoyed most of the TF movie toys from the last 3 Bayfilms. The more complex, and the further removed from each mode, the better in my opinion. I prefer puzzleformers to the more simplified transformations. (I've also been enjoying the Generations and MP molds. They retain the G1 feel with just enough complexity to make it interesting).
Time will tell how appealing the AoE character models are, and consequently, their toys representations. Hopefully we will avoid kibbleformers, shellformers and lazy engineering in the rush to get the toy line out in time (for the supposedly more complex figures, that is).
It's obvious that we're going through a bit of a transitory period at the moment. Aaron Archer has left Hasbro and taken his expertise with him, and that means that the new design team will need to relearn some of the things that the old team had already discovered. With this in mind, the new figures will probably be somewhat similar to what we saw with the Unicron Trilogy toys, where gimmicks dominated the line and articulation and design were poor in Armada, were better but still dominated by gimmicks in Energon, and finally worked with rather than against the designs in Cybertron... before design and articulation were finally perfected with the Classics, and a whole new set of rules had to be learned for the movie toys that were then taken into the Animated, Classics/Universe/Generations, and Prime toylines. Gimmicks aren't such a concern these days as Hasbro finally realised after Cybertron that transformation is the gimmick, and that will probably remain as a feature. But the designs, especially with a mandated focus on simplicity, will probably be felt somewhat lacking by the fans for a little while.
Fortunately, this coincides with a general downturn/evolution of the toy collector market in general, with big companies like Hasbro and Mattel once again less interested in adult collectors and seeking to recapture their core - meaning younger - markets generally. Why is this fortunate? Because things move in cycles. Eventually the world economy will stabilise under whatever new paradigm emerges and people will, for however long, have disposable income again. That means that in a few years, the adult collector market will be important enough again for Hasbro to concentrate on it. Coincidentally, by that time the new TF design team will have gone through a few iterations of Transformers toys and learned some of the lessons the designers learned when they were led by Archer. As a result, while I doubt the focus on simplicity is going anywhere, the designs will once again be satisfying to collectors as well as full of play value for kids. That might be annoying to collectors who've been less affected by the GFC such as those of us in Australia, but for Hasbro, a company that mainly operates in America and is trying to push into new markets in Asia, it's vital.
As for simplicity itself as a concept, my overall feeling is that placing it as a core design principle is good for the line. Toys like ROTF leader Optimus Prime are amazing, but (especially iterations such as Taktom's Buster Optimus Prime repaint) more resemble high-end collectible items than toys. No doubt there are some collectors to whom that's very appealing - I own two versions of ROTFOP myself - but when those design principles are applied to items such as Prime First Edition Bulkhead, which feels like a mess of folding panels more resembling an origami than an action figure, it's to the detriment of the overall line. FE Bulkhead doesn't need to be like that, and a conversion similar to ROTFOP is possible without a crazy number of steps (I can scarcely believe it's actually just 25). There is an elegance in simplicity, and that elegance is something the brand needs to rediscover. Prime Soundwave is a good example of a toy that's not overly complex and yet seems to just work as a toy, exceptionally well, and even allow for character-showing gimmicks such as the Laserbeak accessory. We need more toys like that, not only because they have more appeal to younger collectors but also because they preserve the central idea of the brand; that of smooth transformation between robot and vehicle. Not every toy demonstrated that even in G1, but modern engineering allows for a much greater level of elegance and simplicity in the line whilst also giving us better sculpts and articulation.
tl;dr - simplicity is not a bad thing, the line is going through transition, everything will be fine. Sorry for the long post, I just suddenly realised I needed to get that off my chest!
Do regular people even realise what they're buying into in terms of complexity? I mean even fans, unless you've watched a video review it's difficult to grasp the complexity of a (deluxe, voyager, leader) toy just from the package shot. The rating is a token inclusion at best since a person has no measure of comparison unless they've bought previous toys in the same range already.
Someone who bought ROTF toys and found them too complex... not only are they probably not converted into "fans" at this point, or entirely forgotten about the complexity, but they're also never going to realise that a new line is easier until they buy one.
Personally i don't think G1 was successful because of simple transformations. Apart from the massive influence of the cartoon, i think it was successful because simply because it spurred the imagination - "How does it get from that, to THAT!".
That's a factor of the original line having realistic alt modes, so it's something the movie line has in it's favour as well. But the robot modes...
I think the only way they're going to convert people to long term fans is to spur the imagination and work harder to make the toys not look cheap, even if they are.
Whilst i'm sure there's some kiddies out there who'll love that Smash & Change Prime as is, you can bet there's others out there that think it looks like he spent too long in the blue lagoon!
There is an elegance to G1 Optimus Prime, for instance, that just isn't present in puzzleformers like the movie and (some of the) First Edition toys. For all his 80s toy engineering foibles - poor articulation, removable hands, weapons he can't hold straight - there are good reasons why it's been reissued and remade so many times: it looks good in both modes, and the transformation is both simple and fun. It's satisfying. Trying to line up all the panels on ROTFOP - or even on some Alternators toys - is just annoying. I'm a collector who prefers to Transform my toys without the instructions. I like to be able to just look at the pics of bot and alt mode and take it away, and I hate "failing" and feeling like I need to look at the instructions. I love it when I'm playing with a toy later on and suddenly discover a transformation step or moving part that I didn't spot before; having to consult the instructions takes that element of fun and excitement away for me. That's what Hasbro should be aiming for: toys that can be transformed easily, but which have lasting appeal to kids and collectors through elements that might not be immediately discovered.Quote:
Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat
Comparing Hasbro's new mainline toys to one-step TFs is really a false comparison: those sorts of toys have always existed. Just look at Fast Action Battlers or more recently Botshots. Those sorts of toys are even popular with collectors! I mean, personally, I hate Botshots and wish people would stop buying gimmicks like that and Kreo so Hasbro and retailers would concentrate on the frickin' main line, but that's my personal feeling. It doesn't change the fact that these aren't a new toy paradigm, and they aren't intended to replace the mainline. Even if they are calling that line Generations now, as appears to be the case, kids, collectors, and everyone in between will still view those as the main, "real" Transformers. And from what we've seen, they'll be pretty solid: good articulation, nice sculpting, very cool accessories. They'll probably be easy to Transform, too, but not without the elegance in design I was talking about above.
If the new Beast Hunters Optimus Prime and Predaking, Prime Ultra Magnus, and BH Shockwave were the first four voyagers in a new toyline, no-one would be complaining. All four of those toys are essentially upscaled Cyberverse Commander toys; the Cyberverse Commanders perfectly illustrate what I'm talking about with regards to elegance (rather than simplicity) versus complexity. I'd even go so far as to say Cyberverse Bulkhead is a better toy than FE Bulkhead, for example, purely because it's much easier to transform without losing much of the functionality. I mean, okay, it has a massive hole in its back but a larger toy engineered properly could resolve that without having to resort to plastic origami. That's what Hasbro are looking at with the new toys, and I really hope we'll soon see that that's what we're getting.
Fan complaints about the new Generations Optimus feel like quibbles to me. At the end of the day what we've been shown is an Optimus Prime toy that looks good, has good articulation, and is as big as the leaders we're used to. If that's the way the line is heading I have no concerns about it being too simple to transform.
Probably the most balanced and intelligent post on this topic I've read :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zommael