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Does anyone know Takara Tomy's and Hasbro's stance on 3rd party transformers? I know legally they (Tak/Tom, Hasbro unless they made a direct mould copy or name or insignia) probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on but I noticed that they get displayed at Botcon and Tfcon so I was thinking they may have given them an ok for now as they have been out for ages without any legal cases... Anyone have any knowledge?
3rd party companies do not exist. There is no such thing as other companies producing unlicensed transformers products. Hasbro understands that fans like to display custom works of art at botcons, and to not have friction with fans they allow the display of fan art work. Distribution of art work is allowed as many fans appreciate fan art which also generates interest in official IP products.
Yes there are. They are any of those companies in the Unauthorised Transformers section that don't have a license to make money off someone else's concepts and expensive trademarks. (if you were trying to raise a technical point of its definition)Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton
Any company that didn't pay a license to sell products based on Transformers characters or trademarks, is a third party.
IDW pays money to sell comics based on Hasbro's Transformers.
Art Storm pays money to produce and sell toys based on Hasbro/TakaraTomy's Transformers.
Bearbrick paid money to sell toys based on TakaraTomy's Transformers.
Nanoblock paid money to sell toys based on TakaraTomy's Transformers.
Sentinel paid money to sell transforming pens based on TakaraTomy's Transformers.
(etc, etc, for anything else you've seen in stores or online that was licensed, to pay for the privilege of making money off someone else's ideas instead of creating their own and try to make people want to buy it)
Third Party companies don't pay any money, but are making money on toys based on a Brand that Hasbro & TakaraTomy have invested many dollars on.
If you created a story or toyline and spent lots of money developing it, registering it and marketing it, would you be okay if someone else came along and just copied it without as much expense to them?
Hasbro and TakaraTomy have spent lots of money registering patents and Trademarks on thousands of Transformers names, designs and concepts in order for them to make money, so have a right to make other companies pay a fee to make money off their hard work.
At the moment though, for some reason they aren't interested in stopping the unauthorised profiting off of their expensive trademarks (according to the senior Hasbro person at this year's BotCon).
As you can see on this site, I've allowed for a section for you guys to talk about them, because it's THEIR responsibility to enforce their registered trademarks (anything produced that an ordinary person would perceive as being based on a character they own), if and when they choose to... so fans shouldn't get upset if they suddenly decide to put a stop to it, because them ignoring it doesn't equate to them accepting it.
They might not have been seen as a threat to Hasbro yet, but if their products keep growing each year, there will be a point when Hasbro will eventually act.
And it may not be done to protect their own sales (which are still only negligible, but who's to say the next step isn't mass-production on a grander scale)... but maybe they might just do it to protect their professional corporate image, as other companies may choose not to do business with a toy company that doesn't have control over their Trademarks or care if other companies make money off their products.
It was a joke. Admittedly, not a good one.
They have acted a couple of times - a cease and desist against Comic Ink selling iGear's Not-G2 Not-Ramjet, and banning all third party items at BotCon 2012. But generally it seems not worth their effort, or they don't care, or they think it's exposure, or they turn a blind eye.
The term Third Party in the video game world applies to licensed developers - which doesn't really match up with the definition in the Transformer toys world.
I wonder if Hasbro could implement that business model, if they wanted to? They'd have to come to terms with relinquishing some control over the brand, but it could become much larger, with multiple manufacturers making officially licensed Transformer toys - with Hasbro getting a cut, and the third parties as we know them now, getting the benefit of not being seen as unauthorized anymore.
It'd be like how Figuarts, Hot Toys, Revoltech, etc already do their collectibles. It's not a new concept, and not new to HasTak either. If it means getting good quality masaterpeice level toys, I'd be all for paying the extra cost of official licensing.Quote:
Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat
"What's Takara Tomy's and Hasbro's stance on 3rd party bots?"
Jealousy. :p
I think it was mentioned somewhere recently that while 3rd party items aren't impacting on their sales, they keep an eye on them to see what fans are more interested in, as it might be seen with some Hasbro character toys or concepts (masters and combiners) show up soon after.
Okay, fair enough. Maybe next time consider using a :p smilie, to help make the sarcasm more obvious. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton
(I hate using text for humour... it gets me into so much trouble. :o)
I think the term 3rd party came from the early years when it was just parts production, as it was a third party enhancing 1st party (official) toys.Quote:
Originally Posted by kurdt_the_goat
Now though, it is probably more of a misnomer, but just stuck through the evolution of parts to full toys.
Your second point is probably what we are now seeing in Japan, with Sentinel, Bearbrick, Nanoblocks and Art Storm (so far non-transforming toys, but probably not long until they do converting toys)... maybe because TakaraTomy seems to struggle more often with the Brand than Hasbro. Maybe they are starting to out-source more of the fringe, fan-focused items that aren't going to earn much anyway, leaving them to take on more of a Hasbro model and focus on the massive-unit, general release, kiddy items.
In 2000, Takara took action against an unauthorised comic book that was to be sold at BotCon Japan. The author of the book was ordered not to sell the book and instead give it away to attendees for free. There has never been another BotCon in Japan ever since.
http://www.botcon.com/archive/2000j/index.html
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/BotCon_Japan_2000
Hasbro doesn't have the right to stop competitors making third party products or transforming robots *cough*Voltron* but it's a shame that so few actually create something ORIGINAL that they come up with on their own. For example GlacialLord combiner. But how often do you see a *new* toy made in an 80s homage? It's rare (only other one I can think of is the Reaction figures that use Kenner style packaging, but can't think of any robot beyond GlacialLord )
There are legitimate parts and upgrades for Transformers on 3d printing sites like Shapeways, and Hasbro are making an attempt to do something with it.
Officially, word is that they acknowledge it's a thing and - as a company - don't particularly like it, even if individual designers like some of the works.
Of course, that was coming from Aaron Archer, who is now involved with a pseudo-3P group making Pretender homages. So, you know...it's sort of an official/legal position.
However, it's not worth the time and resources it would take for HTT to shut down the 3P 'industry' (or the fan nerd-rage that would follow, which I'm sure they get enough of as is), so they turn a blind eye as long as it's not shoved too hard in their faces. I think the rule is ~10% different = legally safe enough to avoid trouble.
At the same time, HTT don't feel it's worth the lower profit margins to make high-end stuff themselves on a wide scale - with a few well-received exceptions a la MasterPiece. So, they can't really be bothered stamping it out by filling the market niche themselves - it's more profitable to sell more regular release toys to a greater number of consumers.
And of course, HasTakTom don't really want to get too far into the copyright/trademark design issue themselves, 'cos then the issue of licensed vehicle alt-modes comes up, and HTT aren't much better on the similar-but-legally-distinct front than the 3rd Party groups on that count.
The latter 2 factors are why I personally have no problem with 3P stuff (albeit I do prefer upgrade kits over full figures) - aside from the cost, I have a budget after all - but the official stance is: We Don't Like It, But It's Too Much Hassle To Do Anything About, So (Unofficially) Unless It Becomes A Major Problem We'll Look The Other Way.
Coincidentally, there's already a discussion thread on this topic here.:)
lol, I knew you were ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton
The day Hasbro stop bastardising existing real world vehicles themselves to avoid paying fees & make a profit off them, is the day I feel they have every right to shut down third party operations for stealing *their* intellectual property.
oh make no mistake, Hasbro's "outrage" is purely dollar/legal motivated, they have no moral high ground to take. They've been copying vehicles designs for years. And let's not even talk about Kreos...
I don't think Lego's ever had the high ground on this, ripping off Kiddicraft for thirty years, then buying them out just so they could try to sue Tyco for doing the exact thing they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by llamatron
It reminds me of the Simpsons episode years ago that had them in court talking about everyone copies everything (when Itchy & Scratchy was claimed to be someone else's creation).
It's hard to justify a moral stand when very few current big businesses can claim the high ground.
Hasbro could potentially limit the distribution and Advertising of 3rd Party products, but wouldn't bother going after the companies that manufacture the items. They could send out cease and desists to all the major online retailers, which normally sell third party products as well as official HASBRO products. There are a few, I guess BBTS and Transformers Source are the major ones. Hasbro would need to be selective though on specifically which products to do this to, as to not cause an upset with the retailers and customers who also purchase Hasbro products as well as the 3rd party items. I have noticed and maybe I am wrong, but Toyworld's Bee, and Optimus imitations have not been sold at BBTS or Transformers Source. I'm thinking the business relationship with Hasbro, stopped these items. Just a guess.
So Hasbro will protect IP for Bumblebee and Optimus Prime, but sadly that is it. I love Third party products by the way.
Edit; Well actually Transformers Source did list Toyworlds Orion (Optimus for sale), so my theory is not overly solid.
Most of the fan-awareness of the unauthorised items is from the two global fansites treating them as Transformers news, so they are splashed on their news pages for everyone to see without trying to hunt them down.
(and TFW being behind TFCon, which has as its main feature being 3rd party presentations while Hasbro aren't willing or able to get involved)
If Hasbro told the two global fansites to stop treating it as news and keep it in the back-end creative sections, at least half of their sales would dry up to just those who are more dedicated to keep track of them (as less new people would be drawn in if they don't ever go beyond the news pages/sections). And the two sites are too competitive to refuse because they need to remain on Hasbro's mailing list for official images and press-releases.
But as noted above, the Hasbro person at BotCon said that they have no current plans to act on the fansites or the American online stores selling them.
I would guess that currently the total sales of 3rd party figures are a teeeeny tiny drop compared to the massive ocean of sales that Hasbro makes with it's Transformers toys.
Sounds about right, when you look at all the TF products released by Hasbro this year, the ones focused on the same sort of collectors the 3rd parties target would only be a small percentage of the amount of merchandise they pump out.Quote:
Originally Posted by llamatron
I'm sure of third party products started selling their wares in Wall Mart and departments stores then Hasbro would be spurred to action. But I doubt they would do that and as long as they remain a niche market I doubt it's too much concern to Hasbro. The extent of 3rd parties influence the situation probably appears larger than it is to people like us who are the niche the 3rd parties target.
Which two sites do you mean? Seibertron stopped front paging news of 3rd Party stuff a while ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
Well, it looks like Hasbro just started caring. TFW2005 is down right now, because it "got hit with several DCMAs from Hasbro at around 3am this morning. Apparently the site had been "Overenthusiastically promoting products not licensed or produced by Hasbro that were protected properties." Things are not looking good right now. That's all I can say at this time." Big news.
Hmmm... I was just asking about that elsewhere.
I'm surprised that there was no warning and such drastic action was taken, but it doesn't surprise me that it happened, because TFCon has been focussing on unauthorised items because Hasbro isn't willing to be presenting products there.
It also wouldn't surprise me if FunPub didn't have something to do with complaining to Hasbro, as TFW is behind TFCon, and if TFW gets shut down, TFCon has to remain a Canadian-only venture.
I think I recall that the US Government has the power to shut down and redirect browsers on sites that are even suspected of pirated or illegal goods. Even if it is proven false, the sites can be caught up in limbo on mere allegation for a long time until it is proven otherwise.
A news site should be able to cover "items that exist". Shouldn't they focus on sites selling said items rather than one 'promoting' them? If it is to do with the convention, and timing suggests maybe, it's an interesting move.
Yeah, they were good on that, and it seems that it may have just protected them from being shut down as well (as TFW).Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbot
But the problem was that it was still on their news page indirectly - from their constant inclusion of dealer advertising that you have to scroll through for ages - which is full of 3rd party items each time. Dealers like TFsource include all the images as well, which gets posted on Seibertron's news page, and becomes "news" by stealth.
I predict nerd-rage.
This has massive ramifications to the fandom.
It could kill off the biggest transfan site in the world.
Even if the owner is able to create a new site (with a new name) there might be little chance of him gaining access to archives on the TFW server, which will see 10-12 years of archived images and info on Transformers lost. Much of which isn't archived anywhere else, or is not as easy to search for on sites like Seibertron, TFormers or Allspark.
It's like having all the eggs in one basket, and I wasn't archiving their news images because I never expected that site would ever disappear.
They still have their Canadian site working, so might just transfer to that... and be safe outside of US jurisdiction.
I thought they'd at least tweet about it, or make a mention on their Canadian site if this happened several hours ago.
Yes, there will be...Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
I wouldn't have thought HasTak had the power to shutdown a website that didn't actively sell the figures. At worst, I thought they would stop dealing with them in terms of press release and such. I mean, there are numerous products on the front page of TFSource and BBTS right now. Why not them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton
HAHA, yea I got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton
following posts after that, I've always understood that any licenced product is a third party product.
Unlicensed product is not technically third party.
Well over a year ago maybe even 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbot
Wow, the hammer finally dropped somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Shadow
I have certainly noticed that since Seibertron stopped front paging "Third party" news it has become more of a focus of the TFW2005 pages.
I have also noticed that BBTS don't advertise it as hard as TFSource do. it's harder to find in their menus even though individual items are often called out on their front page. I noticed that the last issue of the club magazine had a pamphlet from both stores. BBTS was mostly official product and TFS was Nearly entirely "third Party"
I like third party add ons personally and I don't think that's something that Hasbro have ever had a problem with, the situation they have going with Shapeways supports that. It may also be a trigger for harder crack down on more complex "third party" products if Shapeways are paying much for this arrangement. A lot of earlier "third Party" add ons created incentive to purchase Hasbro Products that otherwise would have shelf warmed.
Of late a larger volume of very expensive "third Party" product has entered the market and Hasbro may be becoming less comfortable with it, especially as so much of it is becoming more specific and less 'approximate'.
What confuses me about the whole situation though is the Roadbots line that came out a few years ago, it was sheaper than transformers, clearly using the same basic concepts but never seemed to be challenged by hasbro. It spent a long time on regular retail shelves.
I hope we see the return of TFW soon, while it can get a bit heated in the forum pages it's a large part of the international community and it would be a loss for the fandom and Hasbro if it simply dissapeared.
Hasbro aren't ingratiating themselves with the fandom with this. Even if you weren't into third party stuff, you just lost your biggest online community. Hasbro, instead of being dicks, could have had a quiet word behind the scenes to the TFW owners and they would have lowered the profile of non-official stuff instantly. Instead, as you said Griffman, they shut down one of, if not the biggest TF resource on the web.
This doesn't make me want to rush out to support Hasbro.
Who is starting the petition to send to Hasbro to bring back TFW?
The other thing is that Hasbro and TFW have had a good relationship, they had direct interviews with them when they brought out this quarters financial report. whether it was just TFW or they were part of a larger teleconference, it's still clearly a good releationship if they are invited/allowed to engage at that level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent
That's the unusual thing about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraMarginal
It's as if someone high up has forced the issue, without giving a warning first. As a warning would have resulted in TFW side-lining the unauthorised stuff like we do... which would still appease the fans, without headlining it as news (getting to the point of 1 out of 3 or 4 news postings being non-Transformers items) and upsetting someone at Hasbro.
I've looked around and none of the other major American sites or dealers have been shut down, so there has to be some specific reason or ulterior motive in play (hence the possible FunPub factor, trying to shut down their competition of TFCon by forcing Hasbro to shut down its operator TFW2005).
Or it is just a server migration issue.
I foresee so much legal speculation, anti/pro-Hasbro, anti/pro-3rd party and ruined forever declarations that I might just stay way from the TF Internet for a week.
Just stay on this site Paulbot... Its the best anyway :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Paulbot
But wow! :eek: if Hasbro have shut the site down it seems like a massive knee jerk reaction.
The scary thing about this is that there is no definite timetable with resolving this. It could be back in a day, it could be a year... it could even be permanent.
And I feel sorry for the thousands of fans who are active members there, trying to log in with no idea what is going on, and no back-up plan in place to know what is going on. (something I've always worried about, so at least we have the twitter and yahoogroup as a backup notification... and a facebook page run by some of our senior members)
Think of all the hundreds of fans doing transactions on that site that are now up in the air.
Something so insignificant in the grand scheme of things in the real world having an impact on so many people... it really makes you think about what happens when a big website suddenly disappears instead of slowly dying off.
I'm going to check in with the Hasbro people tomorrow, to see if anything has filtered from Hasbro America about this... and to see if there is something more significant behind this, like if it is something more global and if it is something we need to worry about here.
Just be prepared for ANY possibility, including being told to remove the unauthorised toys section if we are warned of meeting the same fate if we don't. (it might be unlikely, but always be prepared for any possible situation)
This is what I'm hoping... but if it was, they would have sent out a notice, email or tweet about it. Particularly since they don't really have a quiet time like we do (2-4am) which is when I do maintenance or backups to be the least disruptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbot
No doubt whatever happened will become clear in time. In the meantime let's go nuts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbot
http://sportsmonger.com/Pittsburgh/w...s-get-nuts.jpg