Simple, really. Debate, discuss, disagree. Ad nauseum :)
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Simple, really. Debate, discuss, disagree. Ad nauseum :)
why thank you dirge :)
George
Excrement! :D
If I may begin:
To me, much of the extra articles all cover something that is already quite clearly summed up in Article 1, which is:
1. Any product created under licence from Hasbro Inc. and/or Takara(Tomy) Co., Ltd under the "Transformers?" logo.
and
2. The toy must transform.
Which articles are TRULY required for further clarification and which articles go against that clarification?
e.g. Article 12 seems to greatly conflict with point 2
jaydisc is referring to Gok's UCM, by the way
Transformers Juniors & Choro-Qs don't conflict, but I agree that Revoltechs and bearbricks do!
Really the only non transforming figures which have specifically defined as actual Transformers by HasTakTomy are the Actionmasters. And while a _lot_ of fans aren't so keen on them, few would argue their status as proper Transformers for that reason.
The other stuff like Revoltech and HOCs were never really defined by HasTakTomy as true Transformers. So I don't count 'em.
I also don't count the two Microman figures (Superlink Kicker and Ga'mede), even though I possess and enjoy both (:
I count customs coz I think they are actually cooler than factory-produced.
revoltechs are just cartoon accurate moveable figures
they must never be counted or a torrent of 'your mum' jokes will sear onto your speech pattern
That is true. Article01 is the only article that wasn't decided by popular vote because it is a legal fact. Having said that, it is a very broad definition... by this definition, Transformers DVDs, comic books, bedsheets, Zippo lighters, dinner plates, drinking glasses/cups, cards, board games, video/computer games, bags and undies would count too. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
So you don't count Action Masters? (o_O) Action Masters were a prominent part of the late G1 toy line, and they also feature in G1 continuity (and arguably in early G2 continuity too - when Megatron journeyed to Transcaparthia he had been restored to life by Nucleon, although he still retained the ablity to transform, unlike his AM toy).Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
And would you count Happy Meal toys and model kits that can transform, like say Transmetal Dinobot?
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/110020991938_0.jpg Happy Meal Transmetal Dinobot transforms from dinosaur to robot & back!
I think the rationale is that Nebulans, Pretender shells and Action Master partners are not meaningful Transformer action figures on their own. If you owned Krunk but not Snapdragon, you couldn't really play with that toy as a fully functioning Transformer - Krunk transforms from a Nebulan into Snapdragon's head. Without Snapdragon, he's pretty useless as a Transformer toy. What would you do with Skullgrin's shell if all you had was the shell? Would you count Action Master Jazz's Turboboard as a separate Transformer?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
Now say if you had regular Chromedome and TF Jr. Chromedome. Both can transform - in almost the same way. Both their heads can detach and transform into a smaller Master Robot/Nebulan - both even have a tech specs meter in their chests! Granted that TF Jr Chromedome is a smaller and simpler version of regular Chromedome, he is still a meaningful and functioning Transformer action figure in his own right. Ditto Choro Q Megatron. He transforms from a Walther P-38 to robot and back. Sure, both modes are super-deformed and the gun mode rolls with an oh-so-cute pull-back motor - but it is still a meaningful Transformer in its own right.
A child could play with a TF Jr or Choro-Q Transformer as a fully functional and meaningful Transformer action figure on their own. You can't really do that with a Pretender Shell!
I don't count my kids TF's even though they got Slumberbee and a heap of real gears and movie and energon Arcee's. Theirs is theirs...mine is mine.
Bah. I'll count your collection as part of mine since when you become all old and senile and unable to transform your TFs, they'll all be mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger
:p
Well if it meets either of them it should be ok...Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
The biggest thing is Action Masters etc....
They don't transform but they are Transformers
According to Article01 (and more importantly, the law!) they don't count because customs are not officially licensed by HasTak. When it comes to the legality of customs, if it's an original character/creation that's significantly different (>10%?) from the original toy then it counts as your own original creation. But the fact that it was created without licence means that it does not legally classify as a Transformer product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly
What becomes more of a legal 'no-no' is when you create customs based on characters already owned by HasTak, like Classics Runamuck - although HasTak have never made a Classics Runamuck, the fact is that the Runamuck character, name and likeness is legal intellectual property of HasTak and HasTak can sue you if you tried to sell such customs. I've personally never heard of them taking legal action against anyone who's done so, but I have heard and seen auctions for such customs on eBay getting shut down because they infringe eBay user Terms of Service (as they are a copyright infringement).
Where's your will STL??? haha, so that i can count yours as part of my collection nowQuote:
Originally Posted by STL
Then I guess if HasTak wants to, they could essentially shutdown the whole C.A.S.E network... after that, we're going to hear alot of screaming TF'ers bashing down the HasTak corporate office doors :DQuote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Right after I copied that, I immediately wanted to correct it to reflect:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Any product created under licence from Hasbro Inc. and/or Takara(Tomy) Co., Ltd as a "Transformer".
ActionMasters seem to be the most prominently requested exception to rule 2. My first opinion is to exclude them. Simply put, they don't transform. However, they do come with a transforming accessory, or arguable are the accessory to a transforming vehicle (e.g. Jazz's skateboard).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I would like someone who is for the inclusion of ActionMasters to specifically detail what makes them different from say a Robot Hero or a Robot Replica.
Additionally, I think one must also consider intent. Robot Heros and Replicas are clearly meant to fill a different niche of the market. They are more display pieces and not toys or action figures. This is seemingly not the case with ActionMasters.
I'm not too familiar with the toy, but give it the simple litmus test:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
1. Was it a licensed Transformer(tm)
2. Did it transform?
After some very quick research, the answer seems to be yes for both, so yes I would count it.
I think again we have to look at intent. Headmasters, Targetmasters and Pretenders, at least to me, are clearly sold as one Transformer and act as one Transformer. Arguing that a piece of one of these should be counted separately is silly and akin to saying that Classics Optimus Prime's smokestacks should count separately.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Again, ask yourself the two simple questions. In both of your above examples, the answer is yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Customs
As much as I love Customs and would display them with my TFs, I don't think they can be counted in any universally accepted system as the definition and range of customs is so broad. I could imagine a whole other set of 18 articles defining what makes an acceptable custom and what does not. And, quite simply put, to not be hypocritical, it fails the simple 2 question test.
Quote:
Customs
As much as I love Customs and would display them with my TFs, I don't think they can be counted in any universally accepted system as the definition and range of customs is so broad. I could imagine a whole other set of 18 articles defining what makes an acceptable custom and what does not. And, quite simply put, to not be hypocritical, it fails the simple 2 question test.
Hell...I love customs so much I've now decided to count them twice.
How about you get to count every piece of a custom that came from a different Transformer? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TheDirtyDigger
Action Masters were the evolution of the Transformers toyline. They weren't a subline or tie-in, these were the main line Transformers action figures.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
It was backed up by the fiction both in the comics, commercials and on the toy boxes that there were Transformers who had lost the ability to transform.
Robot Heroes and Replicas on the otherhand are statue versions of characters that should be able to transform.
Paulbot has explained it quite well - as you said jaydisc, one must look at the intent. Action Masters were intended to be part of the mainstream toyline and new incarnations of those characters.
Robot Heroes Optimus Prime is simply a non-transformable figurine that represents the Optimus Prime character who can transform - thus the rationale that it doesn't count as a Transformer action figure. Action Master Optimus Prime on the other hand, is the final incarnation of Optimus Prime in the Anglophone G1 continuity!
In the toy continuity, it was explained that Optimus Prime travelled through a black hole in search of a new fuel source (hence the "Nucleon Quest Convoy" toy) and returned with the discovery of Nucleon which replaced Energon as the new fuel source for Transformers. But they eventually discoverd that Nucleon made them lose the ability to transform, so they made new weapons/vehicles for themselves that could transform to compensate.
Nucleon Quest Convoy
http://transformers.iespana.es/trans...cleonquest.jpg
Apparently going through a black hole made PM Prime turn black. :p
In the Marvel Comics, many Transformers had been slain by Starscream during the Underbase saga, and although Grimlock, Jazz and Bumblebee (and Starscream) had been revived as Classic Pretenders by Ratchet, Grimlock desperately wanted his fellow Dinobots to be restored as well. With Ratchet presumed KIA he had to find another way to bring them back to life. He found out about some miracle energy source on a planet called Hydrus Four. He sought permission from PM Optimus Prime to go there and retrieve this energy, but Prime denied his request. So naturally Grimlock defied Prime's orders and took the Ark to Hydrus Four where he tested the Nucleon on himself first - discovering that it instantly made him feel more powerful and more alive - and then used it to revive his Dinobots. The Dinobots then pumped every stasis pod aboard the Ark with Nucleon. Wheee. The Nucleon eventually started locking up some of Grimlock's joints - giving him symptoms similar to arthritis - and he eventually went into a chrysalis stage. After bursting from this chrysalis, Grimlock had evolved into a full Action Master where he was immensely more powerful in robot mode, but had utterly lost the ability to transform into Dinobot mode. Grimlock began to fear that when the other Dinobots would eventually go through the same stage, whether they would thank or curse him for using Nucleon to restore them... but the G1 series was axed before this question could be answered. :p Other Action Master characters we saw in G1 included Krok (Bludgeon's 2nd in command) and Optimus Prime, who was not made into an Action Master by Nucleon, but by the Last Autobot who created AM Prime with Hi-Q (whose mind had merged with that of the late Powermaster Optimus Prime).
Action Master Grimlock beats the crap out of Fangry
http://www.tfarchive.com/comics/marvel/covers/uk325.jpg
Action Master Optimus Prime
http://www.tfarchive.com/comics/marvel/covers/uk331.jpg
Action Master Krok was Bludgeon's 2nd in command of the Decepticons
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/tr...180px-Krok.jpg
Action Master Banzaitron - a lethal assassin ("Cybertron Chronicles")
http://www.unicron.us/tf1990/comicpics/banzaitron.gif
Sorry to digress, but I was having a hard time with this part of the Marvel story continuity actually... Since the last autobot reassembled Prime ( as shown in the comics illustration) with the core as Hi-Q ( and organic-cyborg being) then wouldnt that robotization ( if there's such a word) process effectively kill Hi-Q altogether and being semi organic wouldnt that mean that we have, if the series continued a rotting organic core in prime ( instead of a matrix)..... ewwwww..prime smells like a dead rat then, also, shouldn't that be a charge for murder..... things that should have been addressed hehehehe... but again this is just a random digressing rant... carry on....Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
...yeah, good luck getting the Last Autobot to a courthouse. :)
I made a fan comic once when I was a kid where it showed Hi-Q still living inside Action Master Optimus Prime kinda like his 'heart'. Okay, lame concept, but it scored top marks (and an award) for my school art major project! :D
My current theory is that Ultra Magnus ate Hi-Q... just like how he ate Sparkplug (which is why you never see him in late G1 you see!) :p
"Guilty!" http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/...judgejudy1.jpghttp://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/tr...astAutobot.jpg
hehehehe Still he has to eat , motor oil and energon chips is just not satisfying the caloric requirements for his organic parts :D:D... or ....as my theory holds hi-Q is dead and has rotted or petrified inside prime - making him smell like a skunk, but his troops are too courteous to shove him in a shower or something:rolleyes: This also kinda explains why Action master prime is rather small... after all his main frame core is that of a small semi organic creature...:D
er.. I thought Sparkplug just got old and died from exhaustion from taking care of his brat of a grandson Daniel... fixing broken autobots is more easier than taking care of this kid... you just wanna get a 2x4 and... WHACK:eek: him at times
Daniel was what - 10 years old when Transformers the Movie happened? We never saw Sparkplug after G1 Season 2 - so some time after Daniel was born Sparkplug went missing... hrmm... couldn't bare the thought of having such a lame grandson? ;)
Wow this has turned into a great topic......
I am taking in all of the opinions and supposed "laws" and it is helping me, but at the end of the day we all will decide for ourselves what we choose to count.
I myself have but after threads like this i have altered my thinking in some ways.
Keep it coming.
The universal counting method is useful for direct comparisons so that when you say you have X Transformers and I say I have Y Transformers, we will know that X and Y were calculated using the same standards (i.e.: we're speaking the same language :)). And it's only required if you're participating in the annual collection count survey. Other than that, everyone is free to count their Transformers however they see fit. :)
When I count, I follow the following personal method:
- Only count Transforming toys however Action Master are included in the count due to the transforming accessories but mainly fo being part of the main line at the time.
- Do not count doubles unless there is a significant change between the releases of the same mold representing the same character. For example I would count White Astrotrain and Purple/gray Astrotrain as two separate figures but will count two identical Cosmos as only 1 count not 2 separate counts.
- I only normally count figures that are 100% complete with all accessories. I dont like counting figures with missing stuff, particularly when the missing accessory impacts one of the modes (robot,vehicle or base) such as G1 Blurr's shield or Octane's tanker shield or tail fin weapon.
Aside from the above, I generally follow Gok's counting method.
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Honda Cb200 History
I know you're not alone in counting this way, but I just don't see how can you not count doubles? If you have two identical Cosmos toys, one in each hand, how can you say "I only have one Transformer"?
I collect characters or different incarnations of the same character. I am a character driven collector more than a toy line collector. Since Cosmos never had an identical twin brother, he only counts as one for example.
Astrotrain however has been represented in both his white and purple incarnations so he counts as two. Kind of like buying a Masters of the Universe He-Man figure, one with regular armor and the other with Snow armor. They are both He-man but each toy is differently equiped so I would count them as two.
Galvatron is another example of the above. I only own the Takara reissue (purple) but if I buy the original 'gray' G1 Galvatron I would count him as separate since he is another interpretation of the same character as seen in the G1 UK Marvel comics. Same character, same mold but different interpretations of him. If I buy another Purple Galvatron which is identical to the one I already have, I would only count him as one.
All the above is mainly motivated by me being more of a character driven collector rather than a straight toy line collector. This also influences what I collect as I dont normally care about collecting figures that have no fiction attached to them. I would also put forth the money to buy a crap toy if I like how the character was portrayed in the comics and cartoon, that is why I collect the '88 Pretenders even if most of the Autobot Pretenders were crap toys.
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UPSKIRT ASIAN
Well, paulbot and Kup, I think we all agree that doubles packaged or branded differently definitely count... e.g. Takara vs. Hasbro Galvatron, or Kup vs. Targetmaster Kup. However, should someone with only 2000 Seaspray's have a bigger "collection" than Griffin?
I agree with Jaydisc. Although I don't care to go and find a Target Master Kup if I already own the original 86 one, however if I ever did get my hands on it, I would defenetly count it separately. Again, different interpretation of the same character but not a straight double.
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WEED VAPORIZERS
Or someone with 3000 Wheelies! OH NO! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
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Dodge charger
Goddamit Kup. Now that I've agreed with you my collection has dropped by two.Quote:
such as G1 Blurr's shield or Octane's tanker
Uhhhh anybody out there in Ozformerland got a spare Blurr's shield or Octane's tanker?
HAHA....On my way....only 1995 to go! MUHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAQuote:
should someone with only 2000 Seaspray's have a bigger "collection"
hahaha i've got 1999 seasprays to go!!
AM Rollout was in the comic as well. He and Krok were the only 2 AMs in the comic who weren't pre-existing characters, despite the AM toyline having more new characters than pre-existing ones.
A rather unique collection, and rather boring, but I would say yes, the Admiral of the fleet of Seasprays has more toys.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydisc
I guess it comes down to "I have 2000 Transformers" vs "I have 2000 different Transformers".
I tend to count in the first way --although the only exact doubles I have is a second Chase, and a second Concept Camaro Bumblebee (and that third with "Battle damage"tm!)
If I have say...1 normal Bumblebee 08, 1 Bumbleee 08 with battle damage and 1 Bumblebee 08 with a battlemask head, then I would count each of them as one since they are not doubles (or triples) but different versions of the same figure/character at different stages.
I have no interest in collecting all three but if I did, my personal counting method would treat them as three.
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Cyclechaos
Could you imagine meeting someone with 3000 Wheelies?Quote:
Originally Posted by kup
How would you count Tidal Wave... and why?
One Transformer that splits into three vehicles, just like Flywheels, Battletrap, and Overlord are each one Transformer that splits into two vehicles.
Tidal Wave says it all. 1 Transformer but don't forget to count the minicon as another TF :P
Yup, Paulbot and iceburn are correct. :)