Convention Poll

I'm currently considering abandoning the effort to make a dedicated Transformers convention in Sydney, and instead holding a stall or booth at an existing convention. Reasons for this consideration are:

1. Sabretron 2004 and OzToyCon 2006 were financial losses. With a stall/booth we have less to lose.

2. Lack of funds. Many thanks to those who have already made financial contributions to the project, but we're barely 1/6th of the way of reaching our target for a venue and it's already March. Doesn't look promising if we are to have a convention in September. I want things organised ASAP so we can begin promoting awareness of the convention.

3. Effort. Due to recent unfortunate circumstances in kup's life he's decided to pull out of the team. And while I completely understand and support his decision to do so, it basically means that the convention project is now a one-man show. Trying to organise an entire convention on my own would be very time-consuming and I'm really not sure if it's worth my time and effort (those of you who know me well know that I'm going to be obscenely busy the middle of this year (-_-)).

We have done stalls and boothes at conventions before - the first being the OzFormers booth at Sydney SupaNova 2003. We also had a stall at Animania 2003 and a booth at Animania 2004.

I'm currently thinking about getting a stall (they're cheaper than boothes) at Smash!. Some of my year 9s (now year 10) had a stall there last year, and I figured that if a bunch of kids could afford it then it shouldn't be too hard for me.

I'm concerned with establishing a viable means of running a regular TF convention in Australia. As many of you long time members know, I've been talking about this since 2003. Since then we've only had two dedicated TF conventions (Sabretron and OzToyCon), and as I mentioned before, they financially ran as losses. And these conventions were entirely funded by fans such as myself, dirge and most of all, griffin. It's just not right that fans should continue to lose money in an effort to run conventions for their fellow fans.

So anyway, I just want to know how the rest of you would feel if I scaled the project back and aimed at running a stall or booth rather than a full convention. I would like to dedicate at least half the stall or booth for selling toys. Exactly how this can be achieved we can discuss later on the 2009 convention thread, but for now I just want to know if the rest of you would be cool with that idea.

Humble beginnings: the OzFormers booth at Sydney SupaNova 2003
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._ozformers.jpg

Australia's first dedicated TF convention; Sabretron 2004. Bigger, better but a financial loss
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...sabretron1.jpg

P.S.: for those of you who have already made financial contributions, those funds will still be used for the convention project - i.e.: to pay for the booth or stall.

before i decide to both vote and quite possibly contribute to this convention, this may sound like a silly question, but why exactly are you holding one? what is the purpose of it? is it a large fan meet for all the fans over australia, or is it something to drum up extra support for the fandom and hence the board, or am i way off?

this is what im unsure of

this is very disappointing for me

i know there are big financial constraints to certain individuals, all the same i don't think there is much point in holding a stall at another convention like Supanova.

The wharf 8 thing and Sabretron '04 were very very fun because they were just Transformers things. And all the people there were Tf fans, to me, things like Supernova and that Anime fest thing are all just for retail shops and scalpers to sell things at exorbitant prices.

A stall would not capture the whole fan community the way Sabretron did.

Plus i only just recently finished the Nation wide poster:D

perhaps it would be cheaper to meet at Ayers rock, its in the middle, convenient for all :D

I plan to make a donation but it wont be for about another two months as I have other financial constraints at the moment.

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Originally Posted by blackie

this may sound like a silly question, but why exactly are you holding one? what is the purpose of it? is it a large fan meet for all the fans over australia, or is it something to drum up extra support for the fandom and hence the board, or am i way off?

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It's essentially a national swap meet. At the OzFormers booth at SupaNova 2003 we conducted a survey and the single most popular thing that people wanted at a convention was to be able to buy toys.

Yes, we have regular fan swap meets in several major cities now, and that's great, but the idea of a convention (even if just a stall/booth) would be a national swap meet - an opportunity for fans from around the country to assemble and trade, sell, buy toys.

But I dunno... maybe the fact that swap meets are occurring quite frequently now in so many places may have made the need for an Australian convention redudant. It's only been quite recently that we've had swap meets thriving as they do now - in 2003 this wasn't the case. If you or anyone else thinks that the idea of convention would be redundant then please vote on "Neither/other" and post on this thread stating so.

But a convention would also help drum up support and awareness for Australian Transfandom and I think that would be a big plus. And I like the idea of a regular national swap meet instead of just most people sticking to their own pockets around the country. It's a great chance to meet fans from coast to coast... at past conventions we had fans from Canberra, Melbourne, Brisbane, Toowoomba, Perth etc. - people came from far and wide to attend Sabretron and OzToyCon. Except for griffin I think most folks only attend interstate meets if they just happen to be travelling there, whereas many fans specifically came to Sydney for the express purpose of attending TF conventions.

Meets tend to be "board exclusive" events in a way too... i.e.: most people who attend meets organised by OzFormers members are mostly OzFormers members, whereas at conventions we had people from other boards like TAAU and also people who just don't frequent TF boards. They're meets for all kinds of Transfans. The_Scream_Man only recently joined OzFormers yet he was present at Sabretron in 2004 (meaning that he was a non-member at the time).

Coast to coast: Perth's 1orion2many with Sydney's dirge at OzToyCon
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...oztoycon19.jpg

Non-OzFormers also in attendance: The_Scream_Man and TAAU's black zarak
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...sabretron1.jpg

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Originally Posted by roller

perhaps it would be cheaper to meet at Ayers rockUluru, its in the middle, convenient for all

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Yeah... you go ahead and organise that. ;)

i remember sabretron 04, held at the Ashfield cathlioc club wasn't it? i can recall a diorama with Deadend being captured by Autobots and that's where i got my Ultra magnus statue

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Originally Posted by fatbot

i remember sabretron 04, held at the Ashfield cathlioc club wasn't it?

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Yup! :)

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Originally Posted by fatbot

i can recall a diorama with Deadend being captured by Autobots and that's where i got my Ultra magnus statue

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Yes that would've been the Binaltech display :D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...binaltechs.jpg

A booth is not all that useful except for selling things. I went up to SupaNova in 2003. Sure I came away from it as proud winner of the X-Men trivia contest, and I loved watching TFTM with a crowd, but aside from that I spent maybe 30 mins at the Ozformers booth. It gave me a chance to meet Griffin and finally see some Beast Machines animation but it wasn't very conducive to hanging out with other Transfans.

The convention in 2006 was much better. There were many things to do and just a much better atmosphere to hang with other Transfans. But there weren't many people there and the cost of holding something like that was much more than was worth it.

I would like more chances for fans from all over the country to meet. I've enjoyed meeting the fans from Sydney on my trips there and the guest appearance in Melb and Sydney from people from the other states. But for people to travel we need something big, more than a booth. Maybe it's still too early for that.

But if you're going to do a booth, don't do it at Smash! It's a Manga and Anime show. Yes that's related to Transformers but not all Transformer fans are interested in Manga or Anime. I personally wouldn't want to pay admittance to a Manga/Anime show when the only Anime/Manga I like are English dubs (Robotech, Sailor Moon, Pokemon). The popculture shows like Supernova/Armageddon might be better suited as they get a broader audience and more likely to have other things at them of interest to people on the board.

Well I think this would be the more feasible alternative atm. yeah go for it.

I think that if you downsize from a convention to a booth then we will definitely get less traffic from actual Ozformers as I don't see too many interstate members travelling just for a booth.

I think at least for 2009 it shall be a booth. I agree SupaNova would be a better option being an "all-things-nerdy" convention rather than just animé/manga, but hiring a booth there wasn't cheap. I'll see how much a stall costs though then compare it with available funds.

At least at SupaNova you'll also have international celebrities you can meet too. Bring back George Takei - he was _awesome_ (and I'm not even a Trek fan, he was just such a NICE guy - never met someone who was so famous yet so down to Earth). :)

I think anything is better than absolutely nothing, and I know how much effort it is to organise an independent, standalone convention.

A booth is a good idea, this would also hopefully give more exposure, possibly increasing the chances of a future independent convention.

I would prefer the booth take place at Supanova, but whatever you can organise would be good. By the way, do you know when and where Smash! is on?

Thanks for your efforts.

Based only on a limited understanding of the proposed convention, I can only say that the option of a booth will fail to achieve the goals of conducting a convention in the first place. This is not only in a scale sense but as alluded to above in an atmospheric sense.

That said, I think what needs to be focused on is a strategy for the future if a convention’s what we want. A booth will not help in that very much. They are two entirely different animals and to think a booth will help raise a convention is akin to expecting a horse to lay an egg.

Going forward, my principle two concerns are:
1.) The lack of any meaningful business model: Of everything I was previously aware of, this was the one thing that I was confounded by. There were no revenue models, target demographic analysis, income stream, cost structures, and cash flow projections whatsoever. If you want to run a convention you really need to also look at it as a business. Otherwise, as touched on elsewhere, it comes straight out of the pockets of fans – something that runs counter to the stated objective of making this a long-term proposition.

It’s certainly not my aim to derail the future progress of any convention but from what I’ve been privy to, it just did not ever seem like there was any real direction, planning and purpose about it. It feels like a bunch of fans with an idea without carefully considering the larger picture. Though my geographic location makes it a hindrance to correspond. I’m certainly more than happy to lend any assistance or advice.

I don't pretend to be any kind of "expert" on running conventions. It's just that griffin and I are the only ones who've ever done it before in this country. I'd love to see someone more capable run a TF convention here if only they'd put their hand up to do it.

so the proposed big big meet is now officially canceled?

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Originally Posted by roller

so the proposed big big meet is now officially canceled?

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We could always do that, a Big Big Meet somewhere where we can trade and show off our toys, etc. Kind of like a big version of the 'After Parra Fair' get togethers.

Most of our acquisitions recently have come more from these trade meets than the actual Fair anyway.

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Originally Posted by STL

1.) The lack of any meaningful business model: Of everything I was previously aware of, this was the one thing that I was confounded by. There were no revenue models, target demographic analysis, income stream, cost structures, and cash flow projections whatsoever.

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Sadly, it's very hard to get revenue flowing without any support from Hasbro AU. For Sabretron, Hasbro flatly denied permission for it to even take place. Which meant that everything had to be done without exclusives, without sellable merchandise.

Thought did go into demographics and targeting the right markets as well as revenue. The convention exclusive items would have provided one revenue stream, but with Hasbro's basically saying "if you do it, make sure we don't know about it", the exclusives had to be given away to ensure Hasbro didn't slap a lawsuit on us. Without official backing, it was hard to get dealers onboard - in the end the dealers that did come along were private sellers - ruling out another revenue stream.

In the end, the only real source of revenue was the entry fee, which had to stretch to cover the cost of the venue and the exclusives (as well as various other costs).

I agree with you that a business model is vital, but when you're unable to sell Transformers related merchandise and are inviting dealers to an under-the-table event, it's tough. The entry fee can only go so far, which is why there's talk of fan contributions.

Sadly, the current Collectors Club license is global, even though the licence holders are only interested in the USA.

My own opinion is that a local convention can't be much more than a get-together without the support of Hasbro. Until Hasbro is supportive revenue streams remain something of a pipe dream. Remember, the convention name can't contain the words "Transformers" or "BotCon" - registered trade marks. Without being able to advertise Transformers, sell Transformers or feature Transformers on the marketing material, convincing dealers to sign up and fans to open their wallets once inside is close to impossible.

Regarding your second point about a lack of direction... keep in mind that the first BotCon was a small effort by a couple of part timers. It was a success - on a small scale - and this allowed the concept to grow. BotCon didn't suddenly become a huge success with panels and massive rollcalls of exclusives overnight. The first few BotCons worked because the organisers plowed their own time and money in, and - crucuially - had the support of Hasbro.

The first BotCon saw Hasbro provide a limited number of an unreleased toy. The second one saw an unpainted toy (Gobot Bumblebee) supplied. The organiser (Raksha) went and handpainted the entire stock, and she had to print the backing "cards" herself.

As time went on, Hasbro became more actively involved and backers came along with capital. That capital now allows BotCon to utilise the services of organisers for whom the event _is_ their day job.

For an Australian convention to have the sort of direction you're talking about we'd need a _lot_ of personal time set aside, and I'm just not sure we have anyone with the sort of time needed to spare. Which comes back to my point about the convention essentially being a large get-together. Without exclusives, dealers or proper displays/themes/activities, it's more about fans coming together than anything else.

I'd love to see this convention happen, but I just can't see it growing beyond what Sabretron achieved. While I wouldn't call Sabretron a failure by any means, it relied on fans being willing to lose money on the event and others to devote a _lot_ of time. The primary organiser of that convention no longer has the sort of time he put in in 2004.

It's good to hear there has been some thought. I guess going forward, part of it is Hasbro's involvement. Still though, is it possible to run it without Hasbro's direct involvement? Would it be allowable to market it as a Transformerscon? Like they do in Canada/Netherlands/Malaysia etc?

It's still important to look at a business model tho. Esp. over an extended period and not just limited to the 1st one. Most ventures are loss bearing in their embyronic stages so its not just what you can achieve in your first year but how the first year can form part of a process where you win support as a legitmate convention with a potential flow on for direct involvement by Hasbro.

And I agree, finding the people to organise such an event is not easy. Hence, why my firm belief there has to be a business model behind it for it to be viable otherwise its a lot of hard work that also comes out of fans pockets. As much as a fan as I am, I certainly am not willing to commit to the development of such a project b/c professionally I think there are better options for me. So I can see why its not easy. It has to be extremely dedicated fans but that said I do see potential going forward.

Cost structures haven't been built yet but if there was a good idea of that, it could be possible to achieve.

I have to agree with Dirge on this one. Without Hasbro support or at least acknowledgment any sort of Con has to go under the radar, so its that much harder to get the word out. And then of course there's the minefield of legal problems.

Adding it all up, even with Hasbro's blessing organising a TFcon here would be hard, without it it's practically insurmountable.

So far the only reason the two other conventions worked was thanks to individual fans going above and beyond the call of duty.

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Originally Posted by STL

It's good to hear there has been some thought. I guess going forward, part of it is Hasbro's involvement. Still though, is it possible to run it without Hasbro's direct involvement? Would it be allowable to market it as a Transformerscon? Like they do in Canada/Netherlands/Malaysia etc?

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I'm in regular contact with one of the guys who plays a large part in the organisation of the Dutch TF ConVersions event.

This event is still only about as successful as the Sabretron convention, they lose money every year and have a huge team who donate plenty of hours to work as well. I don't know all the details, but even with the shirt sales (which they get made up for next to nothing), the event doesn't come close to breaking even.
These guys do not have any official backing, so only attract small interest from smaller private sellers, and any special guests that attend do so as a favour to the organisers.

It's such a big risk for so little payoff. If Hasbro ever came on-board everything would change. Until then, I think booths at pop-culture events are the way to go, with any larger big meetups to be held in a post-Parrafair style gathering.

am happy to volunteer some time at my current capacity if required.

I approve. After all, we need some kind of representation in the wider world at least, and if we can't do an event ourselves, what better to do than have a stall at another? There'd be a audience regardless of anything.

Supernova would work because it's more a pop-culture convention than anything else, although the year I went it pretty much seemed like Animania only with a token smattering of American video games.

Just curious: What do you do at a Stall in a convention at Supanva?

Most (if not all) of those stalls are bussineses trying to sell something, we don't exactly have much to sell so we will be just there. What do we do when we are there?

Individually we don't have much to sell, but I think collectively we could build quite a lot of toys. I'm thinking about making half the stall space available for people to come along and sell/trade their stuff - similar to what Sky Shadow does at Parramatta Fairs, only more collectively.

We would of course need to devise a system of tracking people's toys and sellers would need to either remain at the convention by closing time to collect money made from their sales or leave details so that funds can be sent/transferred to them. I think we would require anyone interested in selling toys to register first, then we can allocate each seller an ID number or something. Every toy has to be bagged (just like at Sky Shadow's Parra stall!) and each bag will then have a seller ID number on it. Part of the registration includes providing me with a comprehensive list of toys that they want to sell, so that I can tick it off as they are sold.

Now, hopefully we can get enough donations to fund the stall, but if it's a bit under I might charge sellers a fee to help pay for the stall hire.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Now, hopefully we can get enough donations to fund the stall, but if it's a bit under I might charge sellers a fee to help pay for the stall hire.

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Just set an amount eg. if you have x toys you pay y amount. So long as the stall costs are covered I think people will be fine with the fee.
Relying on donations just makes it vague and people might be hesitant to commit.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I don't pretend to be any kind of "expert" on running conventions. It's just that griffin and I are the only ones who've ever done it before in this country. I'd love to see someone more capable run a TF convention here if only they'd put their hand up to do it.

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Actually i've, and if I recall, a few others have put our hand up saying we'd help in any capacity.

Yes, i'm no where near the intended target of the convention, but even if I was to do stuff like design posters (which can be e-mailed and printed down in Sydney) or other stuff like that. It may not be much but every little bit helps, especially if it saves a couple of hours, hours which can be dedicated to larger aspects of the organisation.

Back to the topic at hand, a booth is, as someone said, better than nothing. It's probably not something i'd travel for though (but would still help out from a distance with anything I can). A convention I would give serious thought to travelling for. Yes, would still help out any way I can, but actually making the effort would be my way of really showing support for the concept.

Again, if u guys do do a convention i think that getting donations isn't just gonna be enough to even sustain that. You need to be able to give people something more tangible. I very much concur with Gamblor's suggestion and feel it would help the longevity of any proposal if we could at least get people to contribuet to the fee.

I tried searching the supernova site but couldn't come up with a cost. Anyone know?

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

We would of course need to devise a system of tracking people's toys and sellers would need to either remain at the convention by closing time to collect money made from their sales or leave details so that funds can be sent/transferred to them. I think we would require anyone interested in selling toys to register first, then we can allocate each seller an ID number or something. Every toy has to be bagged (just like at Sky Shadow's Parra stall!) and each bag will then have a seller ID number on it. Part of the registration includes providing me with a comprehensive list of toys that they want to sell, so that I can tick it off as they are sold.

Now, hopefully we can get enough donations to fund the stall, but if it's a bit under I might charge sellers a fee to help pay for the stall hire.

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The method of tracking peoples sale items you've outline is pretty much what my wargaming club uses for thier "Bring and Buy" Each seller is responisble for filling out a list of thier items and coding each item, so that the person running the store just has to collect the money and tick the item of the form (stored alphabeticly in an acordian file)when and if it's sold. The club takes 5% of all sales to for thier trouble, the minimum price on any item is $5.

I'm not sure about how to raise the funds for a stall though, it doesn't seem like it would pay for itself as a sale stall alone. And beyond functioning as a sort of swap meet I'm not sure of what the overall goal of the stall would be.

can i get my money back that i donated for the aborted convention?

I was going to redirect the funds to help pay for the stall, but if you really want your donation back then PM me and I'll make arrangements.

Yeah, ahhh... I paid, like ummm, $50, umm like anonymously? Can I like, ahh, get that back? You know...

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I was going to redirect the funds to help pay for the stall, but if you really want your donation back then PM me and I'll make arrangements.

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did you get my pm? i sent it weeeeeeeks ago

Yes I did. Thanks for reminding and for your patience. :)