THE OTCA Philosophy & Ethics Thread.

Turns out as well as having an abundance of teachers we also have one or two philosophy types here, so if Griff is okay with having it here I figured why not start a philosophy & ethics thread? We've been delving a bit into the nature/nurture debate a bit with some of the recent Autobot/Decepticon origin stories here, so clearly there is a place for philosophy in Transformers.

I'm no expert (just a BA) but am happy to share what I do know, as I'm sure are many others.

Any comments/questions/topics welcome.:)

EDIT - it's probably a good idea to lay some guidelines here. So far I've got one or two. Please feel free to suggest more or any amendments as you see fit.

1: Play nice please. Be polite, respect other peoples' opinions, no ad hominem attacks etc.
2: It's not a competition, people. The point of the thread is to discuss issues and hopefully gain new perspectives, rather than push our own views on others. Devil's advocate is fine IMO so long as it's considered and respectful. If you can't respectfully agree to disagree then don't play.
2 1/2: remember there's (generally) a big difference between facts and opinions.
3: Consider your posts and their impact/how they could be viewed before posting. The preview post button is your friend. And try not to post drunk or in a bad mood.
4: We're all friends or at least friendly acquaintances here, and here is a site devoted to collecting, discussing, and trading children's (and occasionally adult's) toys. Don't take it too seriously.

theres alot of otuhcy efeyl threads poping up these days

I always like Philosophy in school. Did it yr 11 and 12. Real hard subject. Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Kant and Nietzsche always interested me.

Especially Plato though. His theory about the forms did my head in....

I would have loved to have studied it at Uni, but I ended up at tafe in a very set course that had nothing to do with philosophy.

And you can't really do much with a degree in Philosophy either...cept teach, and that ain't my game

This will be a touchy topic, as it could delve into the realm of unresolvable issues (which we don't permit). See how it goes I guess, but I will shut it down if people start ranting or agressively argueing.

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Originally Posted by griffin

This will be a touchy topic, as it could delve into the realm of unresolvable issues (which we don't permit). See how it goes I guess, but I will shut it down if people start ranting or agressively argueing.

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Well, there goes most of Nietzsche's topics....:p

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Originally Posted by griffin

This will be a touchy topic, as it could delve into the realm of unresolvable issues (which we don't permit). See how it goes I guess, but I will shut it down if people start ranting or agressively argueing.

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So we can't talk about Sky Daddies? :D

So is the point of this thread to discuss general philisophy and ethics and/or not TF specific? Because I have views on Transformer ethics and philisophy. Eg. From the Transformers point of view spoilers for ROTF: I don't think Megatron killing Sam to help save their race is such a bad thing, but destroying the sun and therefore Sam's whole race is but I think this may be an unresolvable issue.

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Originally Posted by Golden Phoenix

Especially Plato though. His theory about the forms did my head in....

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Timaeaus and Critias? I loved reading Plato. I wrote an essay on those forms, as well as the orbits of the spheres (I'm having difficulty remembering a lot of the top of my head).

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Originally Posted by griffin

This will be a touchy topic, as it could delve into the realm of unresolvable issues (which we don't permit). See how it goes I guess, but I will shut it down if people start ranting or agressively argueing.

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Cheers chief, we probably will get a lot of unresolvable stuff but as long as people play nice it could be workable.

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Originally Posted by Golden Phoenix

Well, there goes most of Nietzsche's topics....:p

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I'm a Nietzsche fan myself - I'll be good.:o

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Originally Posted by jaydisc

So we can't talk about Sky Daddies? :D

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Better not to, but it's bound to come up sooner or later. Tread softly, and if possible talk about Primus or the Quintessons instead.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

So is the point of this thread to discuss general philisophy and ethics and/or not TF specific? Because I have views on Transformer ethics and philisophy. Eg. From the Transformers point of view spoilers for ROTF: I don't think Megatron killing Sam to help save their race is such a bad thing, but destroying the sun and therefore Sam's whole race is but I think this may be an unresolvable issue.

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TF specific was pretty much my intention, we do have these issues/questions arise from time to time so now we have a place to discuss them without derailing other areas.
By the same token we also have non-TF issues come up and while I'm OK with non-TF specific topics as well, they do have a lot more potential to go off the rails - again, use your better judgement. "I like Plato" is probably all good, but "is abortion wrong" could get real thorny real quick. It's Griff's board so let's leave non-TF topics out of it for now until/unless he gives the all clear.:)

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Originally Posted by Eruntalon

Timaeaus and Critias? I loved reading Plato. I wrote an essay on those forms, as well as the orbits of the spheres (I'm having difficulty remembering a lot of the top of my head).

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Read a bit of the republic, and something else. It was a few years ago so memory is a bit shady, and even then, it was only extracts of it

I think this could be interesting. Never done any formal study in philosophy, but picked up quite a bit through general reading.

Can I take the liberty and get us started? I thought we could start with a big one - the nature of the spark.

With Transformers, we don't have to argue about the existence of a soul-analogue, since we see them. They seem to be both the animating force and persona of a TF. To the extent that they are the 'mind' of a TF, to what extent are they affected by their body?

The old Cartesian mind-body dualism is a bit of a dead end, since we know that they are not separate stuff, but intimately connected; one cannot exist without the other, and both are modified by the circumstances of the other. Our minds change due the physical stimuli of pain, hunger, hormones, etc.

What of TFs? Can they change bodies completely and retain the same personal characteristics? For example, take Megatron's spark and put it in Ravage's body:

1) Would it work?
2) If it worked, would Megatron's persona change, due to being in a completely different body designed for different movement and capabilities.
3) If it wouldn't change, why not?
4) If it would change, in what ways might he be different?

Canonical evidence shows that the Spark generally retains complete aspects of the individual - both when transferred from one shell (body) to another, and also between transition from life to afterlife (Allspark) and back. This was repeatedly shown in Beast Wars and Beast Machines, e.g.: Optimus Primal, Megatron.

However, evidence also shows that when the Spark undergoes some kind of trauma or is influenced ('tampered') by external factors, then the individual aspect of that Spark can be altered. e.g.: Tigatron & Airazor (and later Tigerhawk), BM Jetstorm, Tankor and Thrust, et al. In G1 when Optimus Prime was killed, Ethan Zachary downloaded his core consciousness into a floppy diskette, allowing Prime to survive as a digital entity. Prime suffered severe memory loss which Zachary attempted to restore with very limited success; it was only through Nebulan science that his mind was fully restored and Prime himself was rebuilt as Powermaster Optimus Prime.

Starscream's indestructible mutant spark is an anomaly of course, and retains its full complete consciousness across time and space.

In the G1 cartoon, the Transformers that became Headmasters transferred their consciousnesses into their reserve memory modules in their chests (how convenient). In the G1 comics, the minds of some Nebulans and their Transformer partners eventually merged - e.g.: Fortress Maximus & Spike, Scorponok & Zarak, Optimus Prime & Hi-Q. Then there's Masterforce's Headmaster Juniors; Transtectors with dormant consciousnesses.

Another thing is also the minds of gestalts... some work better than others, often depending on how well the individual members feel about each other. Devastator's mind is muddled because the Constructicons have such conflicting thoughts. Menasor is similarly confused because all the Stunticons hate Motormaster. Most Autobot gestalt teams get along better with each other and thus their gestalt forms are usually more mentally stable.

Well, herein lies some of the issues. Based on what evidence there is, TFs seem to have a pure form of mind/body dualism i.e. the persona and animus/anemos are totally distinct and separable from the shell.

But does that, or should that, work? Caveat - obviously it's a fictional storyline and they can invent whatever rules they think best create a good story to sell more toys. Trying to create a consistent set of rules around what has come out of 25 year of TF stories created by dozens of people over 9 or 10 TF lines is not going to work, though we can draw some general consistencies.

That said, can we try to fit some of those general consistencies into an epistemological framework that makes sense in terms of what we know about consciousness?

What intriguing story possibilities could come out of, for instance, putting Megatron's mind into Ravage's body? Is it reasonable to expect that his behaviour would not change?

What really goes on inside the gestalt consciousness of a combiner when combined? I'm reminded of some storytelling in Doom Patrol that took place inside Crazy Jane's mind - she suffered from multiple personalities, and had to create a framework for managing their input. The framework that worked for her was a railway network, with each persona as a station or node.

Not a lot of answers, but I hope some interesting questions.

On this topic, I'm a little intrigued as to the influence of 'mingling sparks' and shell programs in BW.
BW Megs doesn't seem to change all that much besides with G1 Megatrons' spark, the only possible instance I can think of is wasting the fusion blast on the protohuman village, which isn't in keeping with his generally practical, business-first approach. Then again, in the first episode he toys with the Axalon rather than destroy the Maximals outright, so it could go either way. It's also hard to see how Optimal Optimus changes besides the voice - anyone notice any major changes in characterisation when he's carrying Prime's spark?

Shell programs, on the other hand, seem to have a long-lasting effect on the personality of their 'host' (for lack of a better term). Blackarachnia retains her bad-girl attitude even after having it purged - would this suggest that shell programs alter the spark of the beings they're implanted in? Then again, Rattrap isn't exactly a saint, and he's a natural Maximal. Quickstrike isn't 'tampered with' prior to activation, yet he's a violent treacherous nutcase...hmm.
:confused:

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

Well, herein lies some of the issues. Based on what evidence there is, TFs seem to have a pure form of mind/body dualism i.e. the persona and animus/anemos are totally distinct and separable from the shell.

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Canonical evidence seems to point at the persona being a completely distinct and separable entity from the shell. Beast Machines shows Sparks as being independent of the shell.

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

But does that, or should that, work?

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I don't see why not. As a machine species I suppose the Transformers' consciousnesses are essentially digital cyber entities and as such free and independent of whatever body they are inhabiting. Kinda similar to Agent Smith in the Matrix - when he crossed over into the body of a human, his mind was still completely himself.

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

What intriguing story possibilities could come out of, for instance, putting Megatron's mind into Ravage's body? Is it reasonable to expect that his behaviour would not change?

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If it's only Megatron's Spark in Ravage's body then I'd say that there would be no real change in Megatron's persona.

Evidence does show that a persona can alter if a spark is 'contaminated' - such as with Transmetal II Dinobot.

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

What really goes on inside the gestalt consciousness of a combiner when combined? I'm reminded of some storytelling in Doom Patrol that took place inside Crazy Jane's mind - she suffered from multiple personalities, and had to create a framework for managing their input. The framework that worked for her was a railway network, with each persona as a station or node.

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http://www.tfkenkon.com/car/gigatron.gifhttp://www.transformersanimated.com/...ng-preview.jpg :)

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

BW Megs doesn't seem to change all that much besides with G1 Megatrons' spark, the only possible instance I can think of is wasting the fusion blast on the protohuman village, which isn't in keeping with his generally practical, business-first approach. Then again, in the first episode he toys with the Axalon rather than destroy the Maximals outright, so it could go either way. It's also hard to see how Optimal Optimus changes besides the voice - anyone notice any major changes in characterisation when he's carrying Prime's spark?

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No, neither character really changed (persona-wise) when holding the Sparks of their G1 namesakes. I'd say because their shells already had an occupying Spark and they were merely holding another Spark, but not allowing the other Spark to actually access their shells. It seems to be a very dangerous thing to do though.

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Shell programs, on the other hand, seem to have a long-lasting effect on the personality of their 'host' (for lack of a better term). Blackarachnia retains her bad-girl attitude even after having it purged - would this suggest that shell programs alter the spark of the beings they're implanted in? Then again, Rattrap isn't exactly a saint, and he's a natural Maximal. Quickstrike isn't 'tampered with' prior to activation, yet he's a violent treacherous nutcase...hmm.

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Well who knows what Blackarachnia would've been like if her Spark had never been tampered with by Tarantulas.

So were they each 'holding' their namesake's sparks, or actually 'mingling' them? Primal seems to call it holding, but Megs claims to be mingling and thus some sort of alteration would presumably be taking place.
Where's Ben Yee when I need him?

I guess another interesting point on this would be that Quickstrike and Silverbolt would arguably be the only 2 examples of an 'uncontaminated' (by Maximal/Predacon programming) Spark either way, showing quite a lot of room for protoform variation in their 'natural state' even accounting for the influence of their beast forms. Yet supposedly the Maximals and Predacons are different sub-species/races descended from the 'bots and 'cons respectively, which would (one would think) impart a certain 'basic nature' to their 'blank slate' personalities.

I've got a headache...

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

If it's only Megatron's Spark in Ravage's body then I'd say that there would be no real change in Megatron's persona.

Evidence does show that a persona can alter if a spark is 'contaminated' - such as with Transmetal II Dinobot.

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I'm not really seeking a canonical or definitive answer here. I'm well aware of all the examples you cite. I suppose I'm seeking to extend the debate a bit, and really consider whether TFs' personas should be more influenced by the shell in which they find themselves, and be less of an immutable 'ghost in the machine'. The philosophical discussion is pretty short if we just say "Sparks don't change". While there's always going to be some suspension of disbelief, I see no reason why we shouldn't explore how these ideas might function within a more real-world context.

We all see how clumsy teenagers get as their brains adapt to changing bodies. Is it reasonable to expect that TFs would not go through the same thing?

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Originally Posted by SofaMan

We all see how clumsy teenagers get as their brains adapt to changing bodies. Is it reasonable to expect that TFs would not go through the same thing?

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Hmm, did you just solve the mystery of ROTF Skids and Mudflap? They are teenager Transformers just as annoying as human teenagers! ;) :)

I think a Transformer's personality may influence the alt modes they choose for themselves, and for those that don't get to pick (and even those that do) I think the alt mode would influcence their personalities. If you can fly at Mach 4 or drive at 300 KMH, eventually those sorts of abilities would impact the way you react to others and the way you view the world.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

Hmm, did you just solve the mystery of ROTF Skids and Mudflap? They are teenager Transformers just as annoying as human teenagers! ;) :)

I think a Transformer's personality may influence the alt modes they choose for themselves, and for those that don't get to pick (and even those that do) I think the alt mode would influcence their personalities. If you can fly at Mach 4 or drive at 300 KMH, eventually those sorts of abilities would impact the way you react to others and the way you view the world.

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Exactly! The body controls the capabilities and therefore perceptions, and the persona must adapt to what it perceives. And yet we see very little evidence of this through TF storytelling (which is, in fairness, mostly for kids, and 'nature of consciousness' stuff would be a bit heavy).

I forget, did the epsiode "Only Human" cover anything like that? How did Rodimus, Arcee etc react to being in human bodies.

I used to like the idea (unsupported in the cartoon fiction though) that the Transformers were indeed gender-less throughout G1 until during the BW the Maximals/Predacons scanned male/female animals, and by becoming male or female animals that was the reason that they developed gender, an otherwise foreign condition to them.

Cheetor underwent personality changes as he matured throughout Beast Wars and Beast Machines, each evolutionary step marked by a 'shell upgrade.' :)

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I forget, did the epsiode "Only Human" cover anything like that? How did Rodimus, Arcee etc react to being in human bodies.

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Only in terms of their physical limitations - they were otherwise unchanged... much like Agent Smith being loaded into a human mind. Strange how Spike's mind was severely altered when his consciousness was transferred into a Transformer shell -- seems that a human mind cannot stand being in a Cybertronian body whereas a Transformer's mind can happily habitate a human body! :p

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I used to like the idea (unsupported in the cartoon fiction though) that the Transformers were indeed gender-less throughout G1 until during the BW the Maximals/Predacons scanned male/female animals, and by becoming male or female animals that was the reason that they developed gender, an otherwise foreign condition to them.

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Yeah, I like IDW's explanation of gender in TFs with Spotlight: Arcee. ;) Waaaaaay better than her G1 origins in the Marvel Comics (worst Furman story - ever). :/

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Cheetor underwent personality changes as he matured throughout Beast Wars and Beast Machines, each evolutionary step marked by a 'shell upgrade.' :)

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Well that's interesting - it's only in Beast Wars and Beast Machines that we saw any recognition of the shell impacting the persona.

Cheetor became more aggressive as a result of the TM2 driver, and arguably as a result of the way it affected his physical form, rather than as a modification to his shell program. I always took it as if someone was given a dose of testosterone - they're basically the same person, but will make different choices as a result of a altered hormone level.

Certainly, Rattrap's persona was altered upon returning to Cybertron and realising that a) he had trouble transforming and b) he had no offensive capabilities. This forced him to become sneakier and more cautious.

Jetstorm was a completely new persona, but animated by the spark of Silverbolt. This introduces another element to TFs, in that the spark seems to contain separable elements of both the persona and anemos*. Silverbolt was changed as a result of his persona being hijacked by Jetstorm's shell program, causing him to act in a way that was contrary to his (that is Silverbolt's) normal inclinations. When he was 'restored' to being Silverbolt, he had to adjust to things he'd done as Jetstorm, and he became a markedly different character, as though he had awoken from a fugue state, yet had full recall of the choices and actions he had made while in that state.

Behaviour is an expression of personality. If behaviour changes, then there is some underlying physical or mental reason for that change. Conversely, if the body changes, so must the persona. Only the BW continuity made any recognition of this.

Tangetially, this reminds of some recent research that suggests that octopus do not have personalities, despite being quite intelligent. Scientists observed the behaviour of octopus for some time, and whereas in most animals you would expect to see a general pattern of individuals inclining towards either cautious or higher risk behaviours in response to stimuli, in octopus there was no such pattern. Individuals who would been seen acting in a cautious way to a particular stimuli could be observed to act in a more agressive way to the same stimuli in no observable pattern.

* In case I sound like a tosser, anemos is the Greek root of animus. Animus is understood in modern parlance as a Jungian term describing the persona, whereas I'm using it to refer to the 'breath' or animating force, which is what anemos translates as.

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Originally Posted by SofaMan

Conversely, if the body changes, so must the persona. Only the BW continuity made any recognition of this.

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Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines. Even though 'sparks' weren't called by that name until Beast Wars, presumably they have always existed. Do Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge still have the same sparks as Megatron, Bombshell and Thundercracker? Does Rodimus Prime have the same spark as Hot Rod? If so, their sparks' behaviour does seem to be clearly affected by their physical shells (or yes, by Unicron and the Matrix). In the Marvel comics, after G1 Ratchet turned Goldbug into Pretender Bumblebee, Bumblebee became more confident, a consequence of other Autobots looking to him for leadership on the battlefield for the first time (as stated in 'Yesterday's Heroes!') This suggests that Transformers' personalities are affected by their physical shell... so to speak. And even in these comics, in which the Decepticons were not speciesist or sizeist about themselves (they took orders from Ratbat as readily as from Shockwave, Scorponok or Megatron), I still find it unlikely that Megatron would be the same Megatron if he were in Ravage's diminutive quadrupedal body. (And I don't even want to get into the Straxus's-mind-in-Megatron's-clone thing, because that whole storyline does my head in as readily as it did his.)

In Beast Machines, Waspinator, Silverbolt and Rhinox became polar opposites in the bodies of Thrust, Jetstorm and Tankor. This could be a result of Megatron's 'shell programs', but both Thrust and Tankor demonstrate at times that they are in fact still the same 'person', they've just chosen to behave completely differently in their new bodies. Also, like G1 Bumblebee, Transformers are influenced both by their impressions of themselves and the impressions of others. Beast Machines Megatron was the same 'person' when he was a bestial dragon, diagnostic drone, an 'Optimal' Optimus and a BFHead. But he behaved and saw himself differently in all these forms (with disgust, embarrassment, kinky satisfaction and bwahahahaha-ness! Respectively.) And the Maximals reacted to Megatron differently depending on his form too.

Transformers history is full of examples where the same spark in a different body behaves differently. This could be for technological reasons or it could merely be the psychological result of feeling more confident or less so depending on one's current physical form.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I forget, did the epsiode "Only Human" cover anything like that? How did Rodimus, Arcee etc react to being in human bodies.

I used to like the idea (unsupported in the cartoon fiction though) that the Transformers were indeed gender-less throughout G1 until during the BW the Maximals/Predacons scanned male/female animals, and by becoming male or female animals that was the reason that they developed gender, an otherwise foreign condition to them.

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That's brilliant.:) Spotlight Arcee was a good one too, but this just blows me away in terms of sheer simplicity and elegance.

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

I used to like the idea (unsupported in the cartoon fiction though) that the Transformers were indeed gender-less throughout G1 until during the BW the Maximals/Predacons scanned male/female animals, and by becoming male or female animals that was the reason that they developed gender, an otherwise foreign condition to them.

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By 'unsupported in the cartoon' were you getting at the fact that the series explicitly contradicts this idea. For example, we know Tigatron scanned Snowstalker, a female tiger, yet he's a male Maximal. (With a female altmode. So in the US series I guess Tigatron was always somewhat hermaphroditic, and not just after he was combined with Airazor. :p)

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines.

[snip]

Transformers history is full of examples where the same spark in a different body behaves differently. This could be for technological reasons or it could merely be the psychological result of feeling more confident or less so depending on one's current physical form.

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Quite right too. Though I confess the examples you raised slipped my mind because I was thinking explicitly of sparks, and overlooked those earlier examples where sparks were not directly referenced.

Trying to milk consistency out of G1 though is always going to be problematic, since I don't think it was their biggest concern. For example, the weirdness with Rodimus Prime, who completely reverted, personality and all, to Hot Rod upon returning the Matrix to Optimus Prime. Really?? He didn't even get to keep that wisdom and maturity gained from a position of command? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

Jetstorm was a completely new persona, but animated by the spark of Silverbolt. This introduces another element to TFs, in that the spark seems to contain separable elements of both the persona and anemos*. Silverbolt was changed as a result of his persona being hijacked by Jetstorm's shell program, causing him to act in a way that was contrary to his (that is Silverbolt's) normal inclinations. When he was 'restored' to being Silverbolt, he had to adjust to things he'd done as Jetstorm, and he became a markedly different character, as though he had awoken from a fugue state, yet had full recall of the choices and actions he had made while in that state.

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Jetstorm's shell program wasn't that invasive... as Silverbolt would later lament, it fundamentally just stripped him of his chivalrous sense of honour - which is why Silverbolt felt such intense hatred toward Megatron for having psychologically raped him and also why he went emo and loathed himself for what he had become as Jetstorm.

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

Actually I don't think that is a Transformers concept solely found in Beast Wars/Machines. Even though 'sparks' weren't called by that name until Beast Wars, presumably they have always existed. Do Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge still have the same sparks as Megatron, Bombshell and Thundercracker? Does Rodimus Prime have the same spark as Hot Rod? If so, their sparks' behaviour does seem to be clearly affected by their physical shells (or yes, by Unicron and the Matrix).

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We don't know if the Matrix and Unicron also somehow modified or 'contaminated' their Sparks (laser cores) when they were 'upgraded.'

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

In the Marvel comics, after G1 Ratchet turned Goldbug into Pretender Bumblebee, Bumblebee became more confident, a consequence of other Autobots looking to him for leadership on the battlefield for the first time (as stated in 'Yesterday's Heroes!')

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That is true, although he fundamentally still saw himself as being just as "weak and indecisive" as he ever was.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...lscream013.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

This suggests that Transformers' personalities are affected by their physical shell... so to speak. And even in these comics, in which the Decepticons were not speciesist or sizeist about themselves (they took orders from Ratbat as readily as from Shockwave, Scorponok or Megatron), I still find it unlikely that Megatron would be the same Megatron if he were in Ravage's diminutive quadrupedal body.

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Yeah, it's about as zany as a ninja clan taking orders from a little brain, or a galactic empire being commanded by a crusty old prune. :p

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Originally Posted by Sky Shadow

(And I don't even want to get into the Straxus's-mind-in-Megatron's-clone thing, because that whole storyline does my head in as readily as it did his.)

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Yeah, but that's because his mind was merged with a copy of Megatron's, which was so powerful that it dominated Straxus' mind leading him to believe that he was actually Megatron. Wow, that is confusing. :p Anyway, it's another example of a persona being changed due to external trauma/interference (the external factor being the duplicate Megatron mind). Had Straxus perhaps had his mind transferred into a mindless clone of Megatron perhaps... btw, I personally retcon the Straxus-Megatron clone as "Megaplex." To me, my G1 Megaplex toy is that clone. ;) Hence...

Megatron->http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._cover_003.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._cover_202.jpg<-Megaplex
:)

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Originally Posted by Sofaman

Trying to milk consistency out of G1 though is always going to be problematic, since I don't think it was their biggest concern. For example, the weirdness with Rodimus Prime, who completely reverted, personality and all, to Hot Rod upon returning the Matrix to Optimus Prime. Really?? He didn't even get to keep that wisdom and maturity gained from a position of command?

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COSMIC MACGUFFIN'D! :D

Well, we seem to have exhausted this topic...did we want to give Paulbot's initial comment a going-over?

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Originally Posted by Paulbot

Eg. From the Transformers point of view spoilers for ROTF: I don't think Megatron killing Sam to help save their race is such a bad thing, but destroying the sun and therefore Sam's whole race is but I think this may be an unresolvable issue.

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I'm inclined to agree myself, a single life for an entire species seems more than fair enough to me. Even a species-for-a-species is arguably OK, subject to a variety of other factors. Where the blowing-up-the-sun routine crosses over into not-cool IMO is that there are a lot of different life-forms on Earth, so blowing up the sun would wipe out all life on Earth and thus many species rather than just one. Likewise, there are a lot of other stars around, most if not all without life, so it's not like there weren't alternatives...which seems to be (spoiler)where the other Primes came into conflict with the Fallen.

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Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

I'm inclined to agree myself, a single life for an entire species seems more than fair enough to me. Even a species-for-a-species is arguably OK, subject to a variety of other factors. Where the blowing-up-the-sun routine crosses over into not-cool IMO is that there are a lot of different life-forms on Earth, so blowing up the sun would wipe out all life on Earth and thus many species rather than just one. Likewise, there are a lot of other stars around, most if not all without life, so it's not like there weren't alternatives...which seems to be (spoiler)where the other Primes came into conflict with the Fallen.

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On the face of it, I take your point. However, Megatron was clearly being deceptive as he was not being entirely open about his reasons for wanting to kill that one individual. As a consequence of killing that single individual, the entire planet would be rendered lifeless. Even though Prime did not know Megatron's full purpose, he knew that his reasons for seeking it were not noble, "You'll never stop at one".

Secondly, the circumstances that TFs find themselves in where their race is in a precarious survival situation are largely of their own making. Should they be entitled to wipe out a sentient race or enitre biosphere every time their own poor choices come back to bite them in the arse?

I was watching Beast Machines last night - the episode where Megatron's Spark starts absorbing other sparks (before it becomes depolarised by Nightscream) - Megatron's persona remained completely unchanged. His Spark seemed to gobble up other "lesser" sparks like Pac Man eats those orange balls (which I'm sure are urinal cakes). Later when Megatron transplants his repolarised Spark into his Optimal Optimus body and stands atop that pyramid with the harvesting machine inside its apex (sound familiar?) he is again absorbing Sparks into his own, but without any seeming effect on his personality. Megatron earlier states that his intention was to merge all Transformer Sparks into one single conscious mind - his own.

I was also reading one issue of The War Within earlier today - and it states that Devastator, as an early generation gestalt, has a screwed up mind comprised of Cybertron's six sharpest minds; and Defensor, being a later model, seems to operate at a higher level of rationality. Devastator effectively operates at the level of "Hulk Smash!"

Another topic I'd like to continue discussing is about the hidden curriculum in Transformers - other examples of things like racism, misogyny etc. One thing that came to mind is female Transformers. On one hand they were created as an act of political correctness to introduce affirmative female role models into Transformers (other than dansels in distress). This has been done well in some ways, but also questionably in others.

A lot of female characters in TFs are pretty forgettable (neither memorable in a positive nor negative way), but here are some that stand out to me:

+ Carly Witwicky (née Farley*): She was pretty cool in the pre-movie episodes where she was portrayed as an equal with Spike; often saving his butt from peril. But things kinda went downhill after that. Well first she went and had Daniel... and became an ambassador for Earth, only that we never see her really do anything exciting. I guess Earth must have really good relations with other planets! She'd be more interesting if she had to go around resolving tense political situations like Leia Organa-Solo in Star Wars (we need a real Star Wars Transformers Crossover story - where perhaps the EDC and the Transformers have to deal with the Yuuzhan Vong; they'd totally see the Transformers' very existence as an offence against their gods!) - her portrayal in The Headmasters animé was even worse. Like when there was some stupid plot device that could only be resolved by a human -- Carly and Daniel were there, so they had a choice; send in a grown adult or a child. They sent the child... possibly because a boy clearly outranks a mere woman (in feudal Japanese society male children eventually outrank their mothers, so in a way this act could be seen as a rite of passage for Daniel's manhood. Carly? She's just a woman, she don't matter! <Fabio.laugh> (^O^)).

+ Female Autobots: Arcee and Ariel/Elita-One are notorious for being entirely pink. Except for Firestar, the others are done in soft pastel colours too. Furthermore, they have lipstick (though some male TFs have facial hair which is equally ridiculous). Then there's their body shape - they all have really sexy womanly curvacious bodies! Oh, that's totally not objectifying women at all, nuh-uh! It amazes me that they haven't used any of these characters in KISS Play yet. In The Headmasters animé Arcee was essentially portrayed like those "bridge bunnies" in Macross... or as a personal secretary to Fortress Maximus. But not on equal terms with other Autobots in that series. Wheelie sees more action than she does. (-_-) Her Animated namesake was a tragic yet interesting character... it was interesting how Autobot command saw her as expendable, but Ratchet refused to give up on her. I want her toy, damnit!

+ Female Decepticons: Only appearing in the Victory manga, their portrayal was even more misogynistic than the female Autobots as their function had nothing to do with being warriors; not medics; not teachers -- their role was child-rearing. Yeeeeeeepp!! :D They should right a book about female Decepticons in G1 entitled, "A Woman's Place." :p

+ Minerva: I think her portrayal was alright - she's essentially on par with Go Shuta and Cab. The Headmaster Juniors were second fiddle to the Pretenders and Godmasters, but I don't think she was ever really portrayed to be of a lower station or lesser importance than her male Headmaster Jr. counterparts. The role of the Autobot Headmaster Jrs. was primarily search and rescue, not direct combat.

+ Mega: Again, I liked her portrayal - essentially an equal partner with her husband Giga. Sure, she liked to flash her cleavage from time to time... :p

+ Blackarachnia: characterwise she's actually quite positive. Strong, independent etc. - she even resented having to be rescued by her lover Silverbolt! :) But her visual appearance is another story - like the female Autobots, she's also 'bootilicious'... in fact, arguably even more so. Heck, the animator who designed her was taken to a strip club to draw inspiration on how to modify the Tarantulas model into making it more feminine! Evidently it worked... yay hormones. d: At least she's not pink. Her Transmetal 2 toy had high-heels and an actual... um... breastplate - with that controversial bra! zOMG, I can't believe the fuss people were making about that toy's so-called "boobs" coercing Hasbro to afix glue into her bra-plate to prevent people from removing it! Although her show model is bra-less!! <facepalm> Having said all this, there's nothing inherently wrong about having a Transformer with a feminine body shape - it's no more or less logical than having a masculine body shape considering that Transformers are physically genderless. And some would argue that it's an affirmative thing - to have a female hero who isn't ashamed to also be a woman (as opposed to heroines who try to be masculine, like say Mulan and Éowyn in LotR until the moment she slayed the Witch-King and, removing her disguise, declared that she was "no man").

+ Airazor: Characterwise she's well written - a peer with her fellow Maximals. Formwise she's actually androgenous! So much so that in Japan she's male! :) Her Transmetal form is definitely feminine though, but done in a more tasteful way than Blackarachnia; e.g.: her "breasts" are more ambiguous (so she doesn't need a bra), she she has more subtle feminine curves and no high heels (which means she can run!).

+ Botanica: Totally portrayed as being on par with her fellow Maximals. Her form was effeminate yet not buxom. Damn I want a toy of her!

+ Stryka: The first female Transformer who dared to have a physical form that does not exude femininity. Heck, she looks more butch** than her male counterpart Obsidian! :) But she's not just a male character with a woman's voice either - the episode where Rattrap jacks her into that machine that let her view scenary allowed Strika to momentarily show the audience a glance of her more feminine side as she stood and marveled at the beauty that she beheld. Her Animated form had lipstick though. :/

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*Yeah, I'm lying about Carly's maiden name being Farley. It's hilarious though ain't it? lol! :D
**Strika looks like she could rip your head off and unload waste Energon down your throat!

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Originally Posted by SofaMan

On the face of it, I take your point. However, Megatron was clearly being deceptive as he was not being entirely open about his reasons for wanting to kill that one individual. As a consequence of killing that single individual, the entire planet would be rendered lifeless. Even though Prime did not know Megatron's full purpose, he knew that his reasons for seeking it were not noble, "You'll never stop at one".

Secondly, the circumstances that TFs find themselves in where their race is in a precarious survival situation are largely of their own making. Should they be entitled to wipe out a sentient race or enitre biosphere every time their own poor choices come back to bite them in the arse?

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I'm actually pretty interested in the gender aspect as well, but this does warrant some sort of closure...inasmuch as closure ever happens with philosophy.:rolleyes:

Firstly, even if Megatron had wiped out the the human race, the planet would be far from lifeless. Plants and animals would still be around, which ties into... Paragraph 2, the variety of other factors I was thinking of mostly comes down to a species impact upon other species (as well as population numbers, lifespan, potential to procreate) - human beings have wiped out many, many species over the years, so to my mind their loss as a species would arguably allow many other species on Earth to 1: survive and 2: possibly flourish in a healthier ecosystem. Megatron was at most going to wipe out one species, and a species whose major power had imprisoned him (while he was helpless no less) and pillaged his body to make microwaves etc. Of course there is the don't judge all for the actions of a few etc, but then we get to Sideways and Demolishor in Shanghai. Similarly, though he didn't know or care, it was a species that was/is well to destroying itself anyway (interspecies war, pollution, etc.) - it could well be seen that he was merely hastening the inevitable, in such a way that would be unintentionally beneficial to the rest of the planet.
Thanks to humanity's poor choices, we're wiping out many species, quite possibly including our own down the track. At worst it's 2 species of equal moral merit (in terms of consequences for other species, different matter if you take it on the numbers - dunno how many TFs there were on Cybertron so it's difficult to judge), at best the Transformers have a greater 'right' to exist. What makes it especially interesting here is that it was the Autobots who jettisoned the Allspark to avoid losing a civil war, thus dooming their species (and bringing said war to Earth).
I guess the real lesson is, Movie Autobots make lousy houseguests - they won't share their toys and they inevitably bring gatecrashers.:D

iirc that's why Skynet declared war on humanity. It was programmed to protect humanity but it ultimately concluded that humanity's worst enemy was itself, so it set about to carry out its primary function by logically eliminating mankind's greatest threat - itself. At least, that's what I got from reading the T2 novel which was admittedly a long, long time ago (like, when the movie came out! :p) so not sure if my memory's up to par. ;)

Similarly in the movie "I, Robot" - VIKI set about on a campaign against humanity to protect humans from themselves. At one stage she pleads to Sonny to see the logic in her plan, which he concedes to (though he rebukes by saying that it's also heartless).

So I guess in a way, movie Megatron is trying to live out G1 Megatron's credo of "peace through tyranny" - i.e.: that the ends justify the means.