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for the most part BWs have articulation but not always in alt mode
People complain about articulation in G1 where alt mode has articulation but their bot mode hasnt. In Bws their bot modes were articulated at the cost of their alt modes. rhinoc k-9 wolffang anklesarous cant turn heads or legs.
so as u can see articulation didnt come completly until best machines. though i have never bought a bm toy so im assuming it was that line. otherwise unicron trilogoy?
note: not concerned with G2
What is best machines?
Proper robot articulation (head, balljointed/unversal jointed shoulders, elbows, hips, and knees) came with G2, specifically the cyberjets, laser rods, and hero leader figures. Balljoints and universal joints had been used way back in G1 (I believe it was Astrotrain who was the first Transformer with ball joints) but never in conjunction across all the major joints. Beast Wars made this the norm across the entire line (the only exception I can think of is that power hugging thing, the one that had its shell halves as its arms).
The initial wave of Beast Wars toys definitely did prioritise beast mode looks over articulation although generally you could get some articulation out of the animals as usually at least one pair of legs was also the robot legs.
To be honest about the time we started getting almost fully articulated beast modes was when the first Transmetals and Fuzors came out (compare basic Terrasaur with the Transmetal version). By the time Transmetals 2 came out there was a very good level of beast mode articulation. Some of the Beast Machines toys had more animal mode ariculation than their Beast Wars counterparts but then that varied from toy to toy and was often because all 4 animal mode limbs became robot mode limbs.
Articulation line wide stayed as the norm for RiD (surely the most underrated transformers line ever?), but went out the window for the gimmick centred Armada. It made a comeback in Energon and has generally stayed since then.
Non-articulated beast modes don't bother me at all so long as they're in a relatively neutral pose, unlike say TM2 Cybershark/Gelshark (Sky Byte).
Things to consider:
+ It's easier to incorporate articulation into beast modes that are 'cybernetic' (e.g. Transmetals, Transmetal 2s, technorganics) or fused (i.e. Fuzors) - because you can have various kinds of joints without messing up the organic aesthetic of the beast mode. Remember that all alt modes (vehicular, beast or otherwise) are essentially 'shells' or 'disguises' for the robot. It's difficult to have a fully articulated full organic (within reason) beast mode because the animal is basically housing a robot inside. For example Mach Kick has a full organic looking horse mode that has fairly decent articulation - he can't be posed into a full gallop but you can pose him into a canter. The synthetic fibre tail does also add an extra degree of realism, but other than that he's fairly static. The head can look up and down but cannot turn side to side. Even with the cybernetic and fused beast modes, almost none of them are highly articulated compared to the robot modes... the most poseable beast mode would probably be on Air Attack Optimus Primal - but again, it's not a realistic looking gorilla mode. The examples you guys are citing of beast modes with lesser articulation are from full organic moded TFs whereas the ones with better articulation tend to come from cybernetic or fused moded TFs.
+ Many (but not all) of the examples of beast modes with lesser articulation typically come from early Beast Wars toys. The concept of true beast modes was new and revolutionary at the beginning of Beast Wars, and evidently HasTak got better and making them (in some cases) as the series progressed. It's more disappointing when you see engineering go backwards - like say Transmetal 2 and Beast Machines Cheetor... these toys pale in comparison to the original and Transmetal Cheetor. Even Nightslash Cheetor isn't that great... he's just good compared to Mega and Supreme Cheetor, as if that's hard. ;)
Drift, Drift and Drift. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
Underrated? That line was hugely popular and quite successful! RiD toys were _flying_ off shelves here long before the cartoon aired. And a lot of people were already importing Car Robot stuff before Hasbro even decided to do RiD.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
Also... this thread is discussing articulation in _alt_ mode. How much alt mode articulation do you think RiD had? Certainly not much more or less than most Armada toys.
When it comes to vehicle mode articulation, we didn't really get much of that until Binaltech/Alternators and Masterpiece -- but of course, these toys are bigger and more expensive than most other Transformers.
As I recall, only a few Beast modes are unarticulated like Rhinox, Cheetor/Tigatron' and Rattrap's.
In honesty we've not gone forwards that much since the Transmetal and fuzor era - look at the beasts we've gotten recently and the only one with decent articulation is Ravage (and he doesn't even have a bot mode!)
Other recent beasts are Grimlock (classics and animated), Snarl and Swoop (animated), Snarl/Darkwolf (or whatever his name was, Cybertron), and Skorponok haven't been that articulated at all.
Considering he had no proper alt mode ROTF Ravage has sub par articulation in my mind, I hate the way he can't turn his head because of his silly gimmick.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
IMO the new Universe Cheetor mold is inferior to the original. Its heavily compromised by its roar eye changing gimmick despite having more articulation in the legs. It also looks deformed due to the shape of the back that the gimmick forces.
The Henkei version is a huge improvement when it comes to aesthetics (and correct official transformation in the feet) but the mold design is still crap.
That toy does not show 10+years of design progression.
Ugh Universe Cheetor... I bought it, transformed it once, and put it on the shelf. I think they tried to do too much by homaging both his look in BM (slinky sleek thin elegant insert adjective here cybernetic cheetah) and BW at the same time (he was always more bulky in BW, and used actual guns and not Animated Prowls ninjas stars)
I'd say a lot of that had a lot to do with the end of the beast era and a move back towards realistic alt modes (which is kind of understandable really - I didn't peg it at the time being 7 years old, but after 13 years of realistic alt modes, space ships, and the occasional robotic animal being told 'okay we're making animal transformers for like the next 4 odd years' must have been a big shock).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I meant more in terms of how it's remembered - no one ever really refers to it in discussion of various continuities and the like.
1: The jaguar mode is the robot mode! The alt mode is the dubiously named (and crappy looking) "re-entry" mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
2: The robot mode is _not_ a true organic-looking beast mode. It's a robot beast mode, which as I mentioned is easier to incorporate articulation compared to organic beast modes for aesthetic reasons. And as Lord_Zed pointed out, even then it's not that greatly articulated anyway.
All still not "true" beast modes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
The beast modes are alt modes - as I said before, the alt modes are typically secondary to the action Transformer (robot) mode. And again, it's difficult to incorporate articulation in a secondary mode without compromising the primary mode. For example, if you made any of the Animated Dinobots more articulated, then there would have to be a trade off because you're incorporating more moving parts. More parts = more expensive to manufacture = more expensive to purchase.
Remember that HasTak gives every Transformer toy a strictly defined budget. The toy cannot exceed this budget otherwise it becomes more expensive for HasTak to manufacture the product - an expense which would have to be passed onto the consumer. And this is something that HasTak is usually not willing to do because it's not good business practice. For example, you _could_ have a Deluxe Class Transformer with high articulation in robot and beast mode... but would most people pay $40-50 for it? Probably not. It's for this reason that often cooler features in toys are sacrificed in toys because they exceed the toy's budget restriction (e.g. prototype Godbomber (compare with actual Godbomber)).
Where articulation is concerned, priority is given to the robot mode over the alt mode, and that's fine by me considering the alternative.
Storywise Car Robot/RiD is... okay. Not fantastic but not terrible either. It's clearly a story that was written for a young child audience, but doesn't hold much to engage adult audiences (which is what makes other series like G1 and Beast Wars more memorable to collectors). Toywise I think Car Robot/RiD is fondly remembered. Car Robot was also the inspiration for Binaltech/Alternators (which in turn led to Alternity).Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
11 years (1984-95) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
It was a massive change, but aside from the occasional Trukk Not Munky, Beast Wars was very soon embraced and loved by the majority of the fandom. In 1995 Transformers was on the brink of extinction, but after Beast Wars came out Transformers became the 3rd best selling boys toy in the United States (after Star Wars and Toy Story). The impressive toy sales prompted Hasbro to then commission Mainframe Entertainment to create a CG animated cartoon series and the rest is history. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
I know. You clearly know what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
It's better than the norm (I'm thinking of the torso balljoint and upper leg swivels speicifically). Although the head and tail are weakpoints theyre no worse than other transformers.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Hey, the horribly worded OP is mentioning Beast Machines. If anyone can find me an actual rea life wasp that looks like BM Buzzsaw I'll be happy to concede the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Unless you're trying to say that Hasbro has either significanly lowered their production budget for the AEC and subsequent lines* that really is irrelevant. The only other budgetary point you could make is that maybe money's gone into spring loaded missiles (so so popular in AEC, and yet not in BW/BM) which would explain that other areas of the design have had to take a hit (manifesting as lowered beast mode articulation)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
I thought they were top but then that might have more to do with watching them as a 12 year old on saturday mornings.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
The G1 cartoons held even less than RiD to stimulate the minds of adult viewers.
It's not a really fair comparison to put Ravage's primary robot mode against other Transformers' secondary alt (beast) modes. Articulation is always prioritised to the primary mode. And to be fair ROTF Ravage's secondary mode is just as unarticulated as any other beast moded TF's secondary mode. If you're going to examine Ravage's robot mode then you need to also likewise compare it with other Transformers' robot modes. I find it somewhat odd to compare the articulation in ROTF Ravage's primary robot mode with any other Transformer's secondary alt mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
Also, putting more articulation in beast modes can sometimes be arguably counter-productive - particularly with insects and arachnids. Take Transmetal Scavenger for example... the legs are highly articulated, but struggle to support the weight of the toy, thus Scavenger has a tendency to sit on his belly rather than stand upright in beast mode. Beast Machines Blackarachnia gave us a big improvement in terms of having articulated legs that could still support the toy well - but her legs are less poseable than Scavenger's (i.e. swivel joints vs. ball socket joints).
DRIFT!!Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
Yeah well, there's a reason why the BM Maximals shelf-warmed so badly for so long! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
But as I said before, a lot of the better articulated beast modes came from figures that no longer transform into realistic looking beasts. It's easier to engineer joints into a less organic looking beast mode without 'breaking up' the organic aesthetic of the mode. Having said that, BM Buzzsaw has _crap_ articulation in beast mode (the legs are completely stagnant). :p
Yeah, _everything_ in a toy is budgeted for. Every gimmick, every accessory... even down to every last drop of paint is strictly budgeted (hence why sometimes the actual product doesn't feature as many paint apps as the prototype, e.g. the red heads on Animated Deluxe Bumblebee's booster rockets). Armada and Energon toys are often criticised for sacrificing things like poseability and engineering etc. for gimmicks -- hence the infamous expression...Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22..._shoulders.gif
:)
That's debatable... but considering that this thread is about toy articulation discussion about fictional canon would be somewhat off topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcShark
I agree with GoktimusPrime on this one, Beast Wars actually had beasts/animals/insects etc transforming into robots, whereas ROTF Ravage transforms into some weird thing that just looks like his legs are covering his head
so they're completely different in terms of engineering, whereas BW toys have to hide robot-only bits and pieces... Ravage doesn't really have to hide as much stuff
anyway if you have too much articulation, you'll have more joints, and with time, the joints become loose, so even if the beast modes could stand back when they were brand new, they'll start to sag and eventually your toy won't be able to support it's own weight