MV75 watches Beast Wars

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16th October 2008, 06:08 PM
MV75

MV75 watches Beast Wars

Season 1 down.

Ok, I decided to watch this while not thinking about the implications of beast modes, and also just forgetting other Transformers series past and present, while watching these episodes and just taking them for what they were.

I liked it, I really did, while ignoring the whole beast transforms thing. Why they still don't explode in a shower of blood, I dunno. Sure it started off pretty slow, typical on patrol, see a predacon, have a fight, go home types of episodes.

It then got interesting with the signs of alien presence with the formations and "The Probe".

My favorite episode was "Call of the wild", followed by "Law of the Jungle" (poor kitty died. :( ).

Rhinox's transformation always looked painful.

Out of the new characters that came into the show, I liked Airazor the best, followed by Tigatron. The ant was ok too, very tough bugger.

Then it sort of got a little annoying near the end, they started to really overdo the physical comedy.

Also I think they borrowed too much on Ultra magnus in the 1986 movie. It seemed that being blown to bits, literally, didn't mean they were dead and just happened to be a "meh" type thing as though being dismantled was no biggie. :D

Now from a collector POV, nah, I don't want the toys. I accepted the mass shifting in the show, the toys don't translate well enough for me at all. I MIGHT get a cheetor if I had the opportunity (original mould), but that would be it. I'm just enjoying the show instead, the toys don't do it for me at all. Pretty much like Animated.

------Other train of thoughts------

But unlike Animated, I like how there are no "every character has a backstory" episode.

I'm actually finding it strange and funny at the same time that the big beast wars fans here demanded those types of episodes in Animated while making their BW comparisons, which to me, (BW), are more like G1 episodes. So why the want? That sort of thing is for the 15-17year old Emo anime freaks who think that living lives and having small tragedies are "deep". But I think that they've just forgotten what character-centric means and the types that they are. ;) EG: Law of the jungle was Tigatron centric, it didn't have a big Emo character backstory in it, (how he teamed up with his mate and how they hunted together before she died), but he was the "main character" for that episode, his tragedy was in the here and now, not sourced from a past. I think that Lost has changed what people think it means. :)

I'm currently ripping 2nd season to the HDD on my laptop. So further evaluation will follow in the next week or two.
16th October 2008, 06:42 PM
kup

I don't remember people wanting elaborate back stories, just less stupid comedy and dumb human villains. Some of the Season 2 episodes of Animated fall in line more or less of what was seen in Beast Wars and that is why they are more enjoyable while the first Season was ridden with the poor human villains and very uninspired and childish writing, comedy and characterisation.

Animated for me still ranks as very poor overall but Season 2 showed that they were moving up and improving from the horrible first season formula and focusing more on what Transformers are about. We will see if the third season finally serves to define Animated as a good series for me but at least I can see an effort for improvement.
16th October 2008, 07:02 PM
Soundwarp

I look forward to the reast of your reviews.

I am a changed fan from it.
16th October 2008, 08:06 PM
Paulbot

I think if fans were wanting "back story" episodes in Animated, (not that I recall much of that...) it was likely as Kup suggests, they wanted to see episodes about the "Transformers" and not "Sari and her Robot Friends".

Glad you enjoyed the show in general.
16th October 2008, 10:23 PM
GoktimusPrime

Beast Wars is a show that aimed to appeal to both kids and adults whereas Animated is primarily aimed toward kids - especially in Season 1. It got a bit better in Season 2, but still nothing that approaches Beast Wars in terms of deeper socio-philosophical commentary. Appealing to adults seems to be more of an after-thought in Animated, whereas BW intentionally set out to appeal to adults as well from the get-go. Before Season 1 was even finished the show's producer did state in a magazine interview that they recognised that original Transformer fans have become older and that they needed to mature the show to match TF fans in their 20s. And as we all know the writers intentionally communicated with TF fans through the newsgroup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

I liked it, I really did, while ignoring the whole beast transforms thing. Why they still don't explode in a shower of blood, I dunno.

Because their alt mode is fake - it's a facsimile. They're robots in disguise. It's not as if vehicular transformers explode in a shower of oil, metal, glass etc. whenever they transform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

My favorite episode was "Call of the wild", followed by "Law of the Jungle" (poor kitty died. :( )

I quite like "The Probe" - the first time in a TF cartoon where the bad guys had a decisive victory (and the good guys suffered a decisive loss!). I remember the first time I saw that episode, it finished and I was like "What?! Holy crap - the bad guys WON!" 8^O

And yeah, like you saw in "Law of the Jungle" this is a consequential war - something the G1 cartoon was often lacking in... casualties. It reminded me of the G1/G2 comics in terms of portraying the Transformers' conflict as being a war of consequence - where death, tragedy and sorrow existed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Out of the new characters that came into the show, I liked Airazor the best, followed by Tigatron. The ant was ok too, very tough bugger.

Burn in the fires of Inferno! :D Arguably gotta be the best use of a G1 name in a post G1 series! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Then it sort of got a little annoying near the end, they started to really overdo the physical comedy.

Season 1 is the lightest and most comical series. The tone that stuff down in Seasons 2-3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Also I think they borrowed too much on Ultra magnus in the 1986 movie. It seemed that being blown to bits, literally, didn't mean they were dead and just happened to be a "meh" type thing as though being dismantled was no biggie.

The show explains that a Transformer doesn't perish unless their Spark is extinguished. You can do whatever you want to their shell, but if their Spark perishes then they die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Now from a collector POV, nah, I don't want the toys. I accepted the mass shifting in the show, the toys don't translate well enough for me at all.

Odd... Beast Wars has overall pretty good toy-accuracy. They did 3D scans of the toys and designed the show models based off those scans. They then tweaked them for various reasons, but I think the toy-accuracy in the show is pretty good. Much better than G1 that's for sure.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...yvsshow_bw.jpg
16th October 2008, 11:29 PM
MV75

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Because their alt mode is fake - it's a facsimile. They're robots in disguise. It's not as if vehicular transformers explode in a shower of oil, metal, glass etc. whenever they transform.

Vehicles have seams that can come apart, animals don't. Plus if it's "fake" then how does a beast mode protect against stasis lock from energon buildup?

And what do they need to be in disguise for? There is no reason for that particular reason in this series, just to avoid a stasis lock, otherwise the beast modes were just handy for their abilities.

The only time I noticed that beast mode was handy was in Law of the Jungle when waspinator got tricked into thinking that Tigatrons mate was Tigatron. Otherwise they all seem to automagically know that the beast they see is a maximal/predacon. Oh yea, and when Tigatron first appeared, Megatron just thought they were just normal tigers.

Quote:

I quite like "The Probe" - the first time in a TF cartoon where the bad guys had a decisive victory (and the good guys suffered a decisive loss!). I remember the first time I saw that episode, it finished and I was like "What?! Holy crap - the bad guys WON!" 8^O

Actually, I meant "Chain of Command", where the alien probe sucked up optimus. The presence of the alien thing was pretty good.

Quote:

Season 1 is the lightest and most comical series. The tone that stuff down in Seasons 2-3.

Kidding right? I just know you're taking the piss right there. I'm now up to just finished watching "Coming of the fuzors pt2" And plenty of comical things there.

Rat with wheels that does burnout sounds. Hell, a rat with wheels full stop. And a cheetor that flies. Nevermind the monkey on a flying surfboard.

Waspinator and silverbolt with tyre screeches in mid air as they stop. And the thing that Silverbolt is.

Bulging eyes from when they threw the rock in the air to show what would happen if cheetor flew out from cover.

Dinobot being out of ammo, but then riding on rattrap in "car mode" with flaming exhausts and all, and suddenly having ammo for his gun again.

Yea, pretty cut down dude. :p

Quote:

The show explains that a Transformer doesn't perish unless their Spark is extinguished. You can do whatever you want to their shell, but if their Spark perishes then they die.

So their heads run on remote control when detached? :D You'd think though that being cubed and also shocked and stripped into parts, (waspinator), that the spark chamber would have been destroyed. Same as taking excessive (blown to bits) damage.

Quote:

Odd... Beast Wars has overall pretty good toy-accuracy. They did 3D scans of the toys and designed the show models based off those scans. They then tweaked them for various reasons, but I think the toy-accuracy in the show is pretty good. Much better than G1 that's for sure.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y22...yvsshow_bw.jpg

Yea, all fine and good for the 90's, but I've come to expect more now. :) And I can't believe you even put blackarachnia in there. That toy was bad, very incredibly beyond forgivable bad.

Also yea, I do have cybertron prime and megatron beasts, they look right out of this cartoon. Those were pretty well done.

And another quick note on the 3 eps I've just watched from season 2, I'm actually going to have to be more liberal in accepting these new transmetal looks. I'm finding myself saying "that's crap" (especially rattrap), quite a lot with these and forcing myself to watch them. I am glad that not everyone got the transmetal treatment. Also I'm not too much of a fan of primes robot monkey face, but I'll just look past that and concentrate more on the stories. Same as Silverbolt. I'm still trying to take in whatever he is, but the character seems likeable enough so far. So first impressions of season 2 so far to me, it's worse than season 1, but it's early days yet.
16th October 2008, 11:36 PM
roller

Hey Mv75

just wondering, did you watch "Theft of the Golden disk" and read "Dawn of Futures past" before watching season 1?
16th October 2008, 11:47 PM
MV75

So those are what now? Something that was issued way after season one was done, yet should be something that needs to be absorbed before watching season one? :D

Sorry, to answer the Q, no, and I shouldn't have to should I? Right now I'm just watching the shows, I don't have any interest at the moment to get into any extra mythos about the series. :)
16th October 2008, 11:58 PM
roller

well i dont want to spoil anything

but "Theft of the golden disk" was a prequel web episode made years after the Beast wars tv show

its just a prequel
17th October 2008, 07:35 AM
kup

It was stablished by the second episode that their alt modes did not have blood (When Tarantulas captures Cheetor).

Their 'skins' are similar to Pretender shells, they look real but they are not. They are still organic based (in skin and layers not organs) and just as Pretender shells did in G1 (and IDW) it protects them from radiation and other hazzards.

You set one on fire and burn the skin off and you get a robotic looking animal like the G1 Predacons, Dinobots, etc.
17th October 2008, 07:41 AM
kup

Quote:

Originally Posted by roller

well i dont want to spoil anything

but "Theft of the golden disk" was a prequel web episode made years after the Beast wars tv show

its just a prequel

Its best not to read/watch that stuff until you finish watching the show. You get more out of it that way.

Edit: Typo
17th October 2008, 04:47 PM
GoktimusPrime

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Vehicles have seams that can come apart, animals don't.

Are you serious? Look at where most Transformers' alt mode are coming apart at - it's not where normal seams would occur in a vehicle! It would literally involve ripping or shreading metal panels and glass windows!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Plus if it's "fake" then how does a beast mode protect against stasis lock from energon buildup?

It acts as a form of shield/armour. Similar to Pretender shells in G1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

And what do they need to be in disguise for? There is no reason for that particular reason in this series, just to avoid a stasis lock, otherwise the beast modes were just handy for their abilities.

The only time I noticed that beast mode was handy was in Law of the Jungle when waspinator got tricked into thinking that Tigatrons mate was Tigatron. Otherwise they all seem to automagically know that the beast they see is a maximal/predacon. Oh yea, and when Tigatron first appeared, Megatron just thought they were just normal tigers.

Disguise is only one of several functions of a Transformer's alt mode. It's not as if the G1 and G2 Transformers were always in disguise when they were in alt mode. Remember the Dinobots in the G1 comics? Optimus Prime intentionally tried to detain them at Autobot HQ as much as possible because their dino modes did not work as disguises and instead served to scare humans. The Dinobots eventually became frustrated and angry with this decision and lashed out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Actually, I meant "Chain of Command", where the alien probe sucked up optimus. The presence of the alien thing was pretty good.

Minor potential spoiler: Those aliens are really cool from G2 continuity POV IMO :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Kidding right? I just know you're taking the piss right there. I'm now up to just finished watching "Coming of the fuzors pt2" And plenty of comical things there.

Rat with wheels that does burnout sounds. Hell, a rat with wheels full stop. And a cheetor that flies. Nevermind the monkey on a flying surfboard.

Waspinator and silverbolt with tyre screeches in mid air as they stop. And the thing that Silverbolt is.

Bulging eyes from when they threw the rock in the air to show what would happen if cheetor flew out from cover.

Dinobot being out of ammo, but then riding on rattrap in "car mode" with flaming exhausts and all, and suddenly having ammo for his gun again.

Yea, pretty cut down dude.

:mad: まぢむかつくぅ　:mad:

First of all, I never said that it was completely devoid of comedic elements. I merely said that it was toned down compared to season 1.
Secondly, FINISH watching all of Season 2 before judging its comedic:serious ratio. I challenge you to call Season 2 "light hearted" after watching the entire series.

Of course there will always be some more light hearted elements - this show is also designed to appeal to kids as well as adults. If you want to watch a TF show that is almost entirely devoid of light heartedness, go watch Beast Machines (of course, you'll need to finish watching Beast Wars first since BM is the sequel to BW).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

So their heads run on remote control when detached?

They sometimes did in G1, e.g.: Optimus Prime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

You'd think though that being cubed and also shocked and stripped into parts, (waspinator), that the spark chamber would have been destroyed. Same as taking excessive (blown to bits) damage.

Well evidently Waspy's spark chamber is extremely hardy and has yet to be destroyed. Waspinator is the TF equivalent to Kenny from South Park if you haven't figured it out yet btw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Yea, all fine and good for the 90's, but I've come to expect more now.

Even though the toys came out in 1996... (-_-)
So I guess if you never saw G1 and you saw G1 now and came to like the comics or show that you would apply contemporary standards on the toys and have no interest in collecting them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

And I can't believe you even put blackarachnia in there. That toy was bad, very incredibly beyond forgivable bad.

Why? What's wrong with the toy? And don't say "it's not show-accurate" because the toy came out before the show so it's not the toy's fault that the show designers decided to tweak the show model to make her look more different from Tarantulas (since the toy is just a repaint). They've also tweaked Tigatron's show model to make him look different from Cheetor too, even though the toys are the same mould. But I don't begrudge the toys for those decisions made by animators. Blackarachnia has a reasonably solid and decent beast and robot modes - I don't think the Tarantulas/Blackarachnia mode is substantially better or worse than most other Deluxe TFs released around 1996/97... and it's better than say Dinobot (great character, ordinary toy).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Also yea, I do have cybertron prime and megatron beasts, they look right out of this cartoon. Those were pretty well done.

That would be because those toys were made eight years after the Beast Wars cartoon debuted whereas the Tarantulas/Blackarachnia mould was created a year before the cartoon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Same as Silverbolt. I'm still trying to take in whatever he is, but the character seems likeable enough so far.

The Fuzors were a pretty weird idea and most of the Fuzor toys were pretty... blecch. They were like Transformers meets the Wuzzles. Silverbolt and Quickstrike are the best of the Fuzor toys though... they're nowhere near as bad as say... Injector. *shudder*
17th October 2008, 05:25 PM
MV75

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Are you serious? Look at where most Transformers' alt mode are coming apart at - it's not where normal seams would occur in a vehicle! It would literally involve ripping or shreading metal panels and glass windows!!

It acts as a form of shield/armour. Similar to Pretender shells in G1.

Point taken. But if it was organic, then there would have to be some sort of blood supply going to it to keep it alive. That's how skin works.

Quote:

Disguise is only one of several functions of a Transformer's alt mode. It's not as if the G1 and G2 Transformers were always in disguise when they were in alt mode. Remember the Dinobots in the G1 comics? Optimus Prime intentionally tried to detain them at Autobot HQ as much as possible because their dino modes did not work as disguises and instead served to scare humans. The Dinobots eventually became frustrated and angry with this decision and lashed out.

Comics? Good one. ;) (I had comics as a kid, but hardly remember them now, and yea, I generally don't read comics).

We're talking beast wars here.

Quote:

:mad: まぢむかつくぅ　:mad:

First of all, I never said that it was completely devoid of comedic elements. I merely said that it was toned down compared to season 1.
Secondly, FINISH watching all of Season 2 before judging its comedic:serious ratio. I challenge you to call Season 2 "light hearted" after watching the entire series.

Of course there will always be some more light hearted elements - this show is also designed to appeal to kids as well as adults. If you want to watch a TF show that is almost entirely devoid of light heartedness, go watch Beast Machines (of course, you'll need to finish watching Beast Wars first since BM is the sequel to BW).

Light hearted? No, but plenty of exaggerated and super deformed moments are still there. ;) Even moreso.

Quote:

Even though the toys came out in 1996... (-_-)
So I guess if you never saw G1 and you saw G1 now and came to like the comics or show that you would apply contemporary standards on the toys and have no interest in collecting them?

The 90's is 1996. Let me know if there is a Goktimus guide to time travel. :D

Anyway, yea, they were fine for their day if you were a collector then. I'm collecting now and they are absolutly horrible by the standards I expect today. I hope you understand that and can shift your train of thought.

As for the G1 comparison, that's a clouded judgement by the fact that beast wars is still beasts, I don't want meat beast toys. You're assuming that I suddenly totally like the beasts that I previously didn't, no, that hasn't changed, as I said, I'm enjoying the show and characters for what it is, keeping out any thoughts of past/present franchises WHILE WATCHING IT, and I have no to very little to no interest in the toys. Surely you can understand that.

It is possible to enjoy something without embracing its merchandising. More people need a reminder of that and to hold themselves back from being consumer whores. ;) It seems to be too much of a given these days, just look at all the big movies that have been out lately, video games and merchandise up the wing-wang everywhere. There's no obligation to buy any of it, I came to that realisation with Animated. Sure I loved the cartoon, but one day, after getting caught in the hype of the toys, something clicked, I had a realisation that just because I loved the show doesn't mean I have to get the toys. It was quite amazing actually, it feels like you wake up from a deep sleep and you remember who you are and where you are. Anyway, public service announcement over. :)
17th October 2008, 05:54 PM
Verno

Quote:

Anyway, yea, they were fine for their day if you were a collector then. I'm collecting now and they are absolutly horrible by the standards I expect today. I hope you understand that and can shift your train of thought.

Try and get your hands on a TM Depth Charge and Rampage. I defy you to say that they do not meet your standards. They are superb toys!
17th October 2008, 07:01 PM
GoktimusPrime

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Point taken. But if it was organic, then there would have to be some sort of blood supply going to it to keep it alive. That's how skin works.

So who says that they're truly organic and not just some synthetic imitation? They may to be beasts but are really more than meets the eye. I don't remember the show ever saying that their beast modes were meant to be literally organic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Comics? Good one. (I had comics as a kid, but hardly remember them now, and yea, I generally don't read comics).

We're talking beast wars here.

...that wasn't my point. I was saying that a Transformer's alt mode has multiple purposes beyond just being a disguise. (-_-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

The 90's is 1996. Let me know if there is a Goktimus guide to time travel.

That wasn't my point and you know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

As for the G1 comparison, that's a clouded judgement by the fact that beast wars is still beasts, I don't want meat beast toys. You're assuming that I suddenly totally like the beasts that I previously didn't, no, that hasn't changed, as I said, I'm enjoying the show and characters for what it is, keeping out any thoughts of past/present franchises WHILE WATCHING IT, and I have no to very little to no interest in the toys. Surely you can understand that.

You never said anything like that before. You said, "Yea, all fine and good for the 90's, but I've come to expect more now." and you've also said "Anyway, yea, they were fine for their day if you were a collector then. I'm collecting now and they are absolutly horrible by the standards I expect today."- essentially saying that you're not interested in Beast Wars toys because you don't think that they're good enough by contemporary standards.

So according to this logic you would not be able to collect G1 toys now since they're a LOT worse compared to Beast Wars Transformers. Unlike G1 Transformers BW Transformers are still:
+ Fully articulated in robot mode
+ Relatively quite durable and hardy
+ Have detailed sculpting and paint applications making the use of stickers just laughable

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

It is possible to enjoy something without embracing its merchandising. More people need a reminder of that and to hold themselves back from being consumer whores. It seems to be too much of a given these days, just look at all the big movies that have been out lately, video games and merchandise up the wing-wang everywhere. There's no obligation to buy any of it, I came to that realisation with Animated. Sure I loved the cartoon, but one day, after getting caught in the hype of the toys, something clicked, I had a realisation that just because I loved the show doesn't mean I have to get the toys. It was quite amazing actually, it feels like you wake up from a deep sleep and you remember who you are and where you are. Anyway, public service announcement over.

And that was never my point. See above.

I'm not trying to make you a fan of the toys or anything, but if you're going to say that you don't find Beast Wars Transformers appealing as a collector because they don't hold up to contemporary standards, then logically it should mean that G1 TF toys should be even more abhorrent to you considering that by overall comparison G1 TFs are:
+ Relatively unarticulated in robot mode
+ Much more susceptible to breakage
+ Have relatively less detailed sculpting and paint applications relying on stickers to decorate the toys which looks cheap by contemporary standards.

As for the whole beast TFs vs vehicle TFs... well, wait until you get to Beast Machines where vehicular Transformers actively persecute beast TFs and are waging a war to ethnically cleanse Cybertron of the "racial impurity" of beast TFs <--SPOILERS
17th October 2008, 07:09 PM
King Atlas

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Anyway, yea, they were fine for their day if you were a collector then. I'm collecting now and they are absolutly horrible by the standards I expect today. I hope you understand that and can shift your train of thought.

I highly disagree. I think they stand the test of time quite well. As for the show itself, I think you are taking it far too seriously. G1 had so many random wtf moments, I can't believe you wouldn't be in some kind of critising frenzy after a couple of episodes :rolleyes:
17th October 2008, 07:20 PM
GoktimusPrime

Not the comics but the G1 cartoon had a CRAPLOAD more wtf moments compared to Beast Wars!! Beast Wars gives us actual characters with complex facets whereas G1 cartoon TFs were really just one-dimensional caricatures. Compare the characterisation of G1 toon Optimus Prime vs Optimus Primal... Optimus Primal is a far more complex character.

...then there's this thing called continuity. Sure, there are a few moments where BW continuity doesn't quite match up with G1 and G2 continuity... but the G1 cartoon continuity doesn't even match up with itself!! e.g.: Megatron's origins, Constructicons' origins etc. Phwoar!

The G1 and G2 comics were still better than Beast Wars though, but Beast Wars is the best story ever written for a Transformers television series IMHO.
17th October 2008, 08:47 PM
Gutsman Heavy

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

they're nowhere near as bad as say... Injector. *shudder*

THATS IT! outside, NOW!

fisticuffs!

:p
17th October 2008, 09:02 PM
dirge

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Point taken. But if it was organic, then there would have to be some sort of blood supply going to it to keep it alive. That's how skin works.

Alien technologies, man. Remember, millions around the world accept that God/Allah/Buddha/Yoda/roller's mum can do unfathomable miracles and stuff. Just accept the alien tech...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Light hearted? No, but plenty of exaggerated and super deformed moments are still there. ;) Even moreso.

The tone of the second season is more serious, even if the comedic moments are more distinct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Anyway, yea, they were fine for their day if you were a collector then. I'm collecting now and they are absolutly horrible by the standards I expect today.

Rubbish - the standards today are far below those of Beast Wars. The original Cheetor toy is all over pretty much any FAB. Rampage leaves Cybertron Snarl for dead.

The best of BW easily stacks up against today's toys. And the standards then were a lot higher. No ridiculously simple junk like FABs or CyberSlammers (no offence to fans of these toys, but the technology in these is non-existent). BW produced ultras like Depth Charge & Tigerhawk, which were just plain good Transformers. Cybertron gave us Jetfire, whose transformation is what you'd expect of a BW deluxe. And he's less poseable than your typical BW deluxe.

The cream of modern toys are above what BW achieved, I'll concede that. But for every 2008 movie Bumblebee, there's a soundbox-centred Energon Ironhide. For every Movie Leader Prime, there's a Cybertron Supreme Starscream (who was able to be redesigned as a _Legend_ with the same transformation).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

I don't want meat beast toys. You're assuming that I suddenly totally like the beasts that I previously didn't, no, that hasn't changed, as I said, I'm enjoying the show and characters for what it is, keeping out any thoughts of past/present franchises WHILE WATCHING IT, and I have no to very little to no interest in the toys. Surely you can understand that.

Having no interest in the toys doesn't mean you have to deride them. I can't stand the Animated concept, but I'll still concede that Animated Soundwave & Leader Megs are well designed toys with a lot of focus. The way you're talking about Beast Wars toys, one could be mistaken for thinking they're on the level of rock lords.

By all means, hate the idea. Your preferences are yours and you're entitled to them. If you hate the concept of organic beast mode Transformers, you don't need to justify that. But the more you claim that Beast Wars toys are awful, the less others will think of your opinions.
17th October 2008, 09:07 PM
Soundwarp

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anywho how is it going?
17th October 2008, 09:12 PM
GoktimusPrime

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gutsman Heavy

THATS IT! outside, NOW!

fisticuffs!

Let Claw-Plagh begin!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...in_Love%3F.jpg
*play Star Trek fight music* :p
17th October 2008, 09:21 PM
MV75

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

...that wasn't my point. I was saying that a Transformer's alt mode has multiple purposes beyond just being a disguise. (-_-)

Yes, I originally ~~insinuated~~ flat out said that. You missed it.

Quote:

That wasn't my point and you know it.

No I don't, I don't know what your point was then. I'm saying the toys were from the 90's, and you say 1996, where is the freaking difference?!!?!?!?!?

Quote:

You never said anything like that before. You said, "Yea, all fine and good for the 90's, but I've come to expect more now." and you've also said "Anyway, yea, they were fine for their day if you were a collector then. I'm collecting now and they are absolutly horrible by the standards I expect today."- essentially saying that you're not interested in Beast Wars toys because you don't think that they're good enough by contemporary standards.

So according to this logic you would not be able to collect G1 toys now since they're a LOT worse compared to Beast Wars Transformers. Unlike G1 Transformers BW Transformers are still:
+ Fully articulated in robot mode
+ Relatively quite durable and hardy
+ Have detailed sculpting and paint applications making the use of stickers just laughable

And that was never my point. See above.

I'm not trying to make you a fan of the toys or anything, but if you're going to say that you don't find Beast Wars Transformers appealing as a collector because they don't hold up to contemporary standards, then logically it should mean that G1 TF toys should be even more abhorrent to you considering that by overall comparison G1 TFs are:
+ Relatively unarticulated in robot mode
+ Much more susceptible to breakage
+ Have relatively less detailed sculpting and paint applications relying on stickers to decorate the toys which looks cheap by contemporary standards.

As for the whole beast TFs vs vehicle TFs... well, wait until you get to Beast Machines where vehicular Transformers actively persecute beast TFs and are waging a war to ethnically cleanse Cybertron of the "racial impurity" of beast TFs <--SPOILERS

Yes, yes you are trying to force it upon me, either that or having a self rightous rant on how much better the toys are than g1 toys. You tell me. Remember, you set up the whole G1 toy comparison.

I think I have to literally elaborate even further, I keep forgetting your lack of lateral thinking, don't make me bullet point it:

G1 is your issue, it's a non-issue to me and shouldn't have even have been brought up by you. Now remember, I was a G1 fan from back in the day, now remember that and read on;

What you're missing here is that I'm not a beast wars collector, if I was, then I'd be a new beast wars collector. New as in today, the date of the 17th of October 2008.

Now see where this is going?

Now, If I were interested in collecting the merchandise, I'm now comparing it to what I expect from a current new series, and in comparison, BW toys fall very short. I don't give a crap on how much better they were compared to previous series. Next we do some extra math in the realm of addition, and add my comment of Yea, all fine and good for the 90's, but I've come to expect more now. Now keep remembering todays date, it's 12 years in the future from 1996, toys are better, you even said that yourself about the cybertron prime/megatron, yes THE TOYS ARE BETTER TODAY, and yes, I am comparing them to today.

Also don't forget what else I said: As for the G1 comparison, that's a clouded judgement by the fact that beast wars is still beasts, I don't want meat beast toys. You're assuming that I suddenly totally like the beasts that I previously didn't, no, that hasn't changed
17th October 2008, 09:28 PM
GoktimusPrime

*ignores flamebaits*

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Now, If I were interested in collecting the merchandise, I'm now comparing it to what I expect from a current new series, and in comparison, BW toys fall very short. I don't give a crap on how much better they were compared to previous series. Next we do some extra math in the realm of addition, and add my comment of Yea, all fine and good for the 90's, but I've come to expect more now. Now keep remembering todays date, it's 12 years in the future from 1996, toys are better, you even said that yourself about the cybertron prime/megatron, yes THE TOYS ARE BETTER TODAY, and yes, I am comparing them to today.

Why?

i.e.: Precisely how is the BW toyline as a whole inferior to TFs today?
17th October 2008, 09:33 PM
MV75

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirge

The tone of the second season is more serious, even if the comedic moments are more distinct.

I didn't initiate light hearted, nor tone. I said comedic moments.

Quote:

Rubbish - the standards today are far below those of Beast Wars. The original Cheetor toy is all over pretty much any FAB. Rampage leaves Cybertron Snarl for dead.

The best of BW easily stacks up against today's toys. And the standards then were a lot higher. No ridiculously simple junk like FABs or CyberSlammers (no offence to fans of these toys, but the technology in these is non-existent). BW produced ultras like Depth Charge & Tigerhawk, which were just plain good Transformers. Cybertron gave us Jetfire, whose transformation is what you'd expect of a BW deluxe. And he's less poseable than your typical BW deluxe.

The cream of modern toys are above what BW achieved, I'll concede that. But for every 2008 movie Bumblebee, there's a soundbox-centred Energon Ironhide. For every Movie Leader Prime, there's a Cybertron Supreme Starscream (who was able to be redesigned as a _Legend_ with the same transformation).

Don't try and compare the good against the crap. You'll get nowhere.

Quote:

Having no interest in the toys doesn't mean you have to deride them. I can't stand the Animated concept, but I'll still concede that Animated Soundwave & Leader Megs are well designed toys with a lot of focus. The way you're talking about Beast Wars toys, one could be mistaken for thinking they're on the level of rock lords.

I'm sure there are some good toys, why do you keep thinking that I have to like them? And back off the rock lords. I like rock lords.

Quote:

By all means, hate the idea. Your preferences are yours and you're entitled to them. If you hate the concept of organic beast mode Transformers, you don't need to justify that. But the more you claim that Beast Wars toys are awful, the less others will think of your opinions.

Damned if I do and damned if I don't, so be it. You're not giving any options with the ultimatum of "sure say what you like, but if you say what you like you'll be thought of less". What the hell am I to do when people can't understand one sentence and keep pushing their views on me?
17th October 2008, 09:35 PM
Soundwarp

Mate the BW community is a very very opionated one and if you don'y like it don't have an opinion aparently, i found that out the hard way many years ago.

How is the next season going?
17th October 2008, 09:38 PM
GoktimusPrime

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Don't try and compare the good against the crap. You'll get nowhere.

He's not... he's comparing the toylines as a whole. That's why he said "The cream of modern toys are above what BW achieved, I'll concede that. But for every 2008 movie Bumblebee, there's a soundbox-centred Energon Ironhide. For every Movie Leader Prime, there's a Cybertron Supreme Starscream (who was able to be redesigned as a _Legend_ with the same transformation)."

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

I'm sure there are some good toys, why do you keep thinking that I have to like them?

Nobody's saying that you have to like them. We're saying that just because you may not like the concept of beast TFs doesn't mean you have to deride the toys. dirge was saying that although he hates the concept of Transformers Animated he can see that there are some good toys in that line, regardless of his opinion of the line's concept. You need to see beyond the concept and evaluate the toyline under its own merit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Damned if I do and damned if I don't, so be it. You're not giving any options with the ultimatum of "sure say what you like, but if you say what you like you'll be thought of less". What the hell am I to do when people can't understand one sentence and keep pushing their views on me?

That is NOT what is happening. See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundwarp

Mate the BW community is a very very opionated one and if you don'y like it don't have an opinion aparently, i found that out the hard way many years ago.

That's not true. He's allowed to think what he wants of it... it's how he's justifying his opinions that is in question here. If you're going to go against a popular opinion, that's fine... but you need to be able to back it up with... ya know... logic.
17th October 2008, 09:42 PM
Soundwarp

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Anyway, yea, they were fine for their day if you were a collector then. I'm collecting now and they are absolutly horrible by the standards I expect today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirge

Rubbish - the standards today are far below those of Beast Wars. The original Cheetor toy is all over pretty much any FAB. Rampage leaves Cybertron Snarl for dead.

Not rubbish at all i agree with MV75.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

That's not true. He's allowed to think what he wants of it... it's how he's justifying his opinions that is in question here. If you're going to go against a popular opinion, that's fine... but you need to be able to back it up with... ya know... logic.

No one HAS to back up a damm thing.

You can have an opinion and no one is entitled to hear what you think unless you want to.
17th October 2008, 09:44 PM
GoktimusPrime

He didn't say all, he was saying overall as a line vs BW overall as a line. Hence why he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirge

The cream of modern toys are above what BW achieved, I'll concede that. But for every 2008 movie Bumblebee, there's a soundbox-centred Energon Ironhide. For every Movie Leader Prime, there's a Cybertron Supreme Starscream (who was able to be redesigned as a _Legend_ with the same transformation).
17th October 2008, 09:45 PM
MV75

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

*ignores flamebaits*

Why?

i.e.: Precisely how is the BW toyline as a whole inferior to TFs today?

No flamebaits intended, I'm frustrated in trying to dumb everything down and expand it into an essay that one sentence should suffice in doing. No more toy discussion. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundwarp

Mate the BW community is a very very opionated one and if you don'y like it don't have an opinion aparently, i found that out the hard way many years ago.

How is the next season going?

I'm still up to where I was yesterday. I'll probably get to watching again early next week and go on from there. I'm sure it'll wind up again like season one did. So far it's like the first season on how it started with the whole new character introduction type episodes, so yea, it should get into some better stories soon I expect. :)
17th October 2008, 09:46 PM
Soundwarp

Heck yes!

I am a damm FAN of season 2...

Yep i said it i am a fan of BW season 2!
17th October 2008, 09:53 PM
griffin

Thread has been temporarily closed until MV75 finishes watching BW (or at least season 2).

There has to be a time when people need to let go of an argument if both sides are hostile or not prepared to conceed anything.
17th October 2008, 09:57 PM
dirge

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

No I don't, I don't know what your point was then. I'm saying the toys were from the 90's, and you say 1996, where is the freaking difference?!!?!?!?!?

His point was that you stated you expect more "now". You're not looking at the toys in context. And risk looking like a fool for refusing to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Now, If I were interested in collecting the merchandise, I'm now comparing it to what I expect from a current new series, and in comparison, BW toys fall very short.

That's just ridiculous.

That's akin to someone claiming that the colours TVs introduced into Australia in the 1970s were crap - and not worth acknowledging - because they're not flatscreen plasmas.

Or claiming that the classic Monaros are rubbish because they didn't come with airbags and didn't run on unleaded petrol.

And you're still ignoring the utter cr4p that's released now - and there's plently of it. CyberSlammrs, FABs, Ultimate Bumblebee and many others which are simple, cheesy toys.

By the way, I don't see how Goktimus asking you to respect the toys is trying to force anything onto you. Goktimus at no point is assuming you totally like beasts.

Your comment about lateral thinking is well and truly across the line.

You don't like the concept of Beast Wars. We get that. DO NOT continue to insult it purely because you don't like it. You've provided no evidence of examples of how Beast Wars does not meet current standards, and ignored the arguments I have presented.

Your insults of Goktimus, who is providing evidence to back him his position while you continue to avoid doing the same, are NOT acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Don't try and compare the good against the crap. You'll get nowhere.

Put up or shut up. Provide us with evidence of why Beast Wars is so awful. So far all you've done is carried on about how BW toys are poor and told us modern toys are so much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

Damned if I do and damned if I don't, so be it.

As long as you provide statements without any proof, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MV75

What the hell am I to do when people can't understand one sentence and keep pushing their views on me?

Provide something to back up your opinion. So far all you've done is insult Goktimus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundwarp

No one HAS to back up a damm thing.

You can have an opinion and no one is entitled to hear what you think unless you want to.

No, but if they want to be taken seriously, they need to justify their stance. Soundwarp, you gave us a really good account of your journey through Beast Wars, and made it clear that you appreciated it despite your reservations about the concept. You gave us a balanced view of why you were able to appreciate the show, even if you didn't necessarily like the concept. You were able to recognise the strengths of the series despite your opinion of the concept - MV75 is not doing that (as far as the toys go).

MV75 is arguing that Beast Wars toys are inherently poor without telling us why he feels this way. It's got nothing to do with what he's saying, but the fact he's making a controversial claim without even trying to tell us why he's making the claim.

As I stated earlier, I can't stand Animated. I hate the concept of the series, I hate the design aesthetic. But I've always made it clear that this is personal preference. MV75 has done the same thing with Beast Wars - noone is asking him to like the concept. However we _are_ asking him to back up his claims about the toys. Which he is not doing.

Michael, either provide specific examples of why you believe the BW toyline is inferior to today's toys or do not make the claim. That's what we're asking.

Edit - Guh griffin closed the thread as I was replying. MV75, I do hope you're willing to apologise for that "lateral thinking" remark. I'm very unimpressed by that one.
17th October 2008, 11:41 PM
griffin

Reguardless of how any of the board staff here interacts in a discussion topic, when they put on their Moderator/Admin "hat" to deal with bad behaviour or a breach of board rules, you must take them seriously and respond to their requests or actions responsibly.
I don't accept any abusive or insulting behaviour against a staff member once they have their Moderator "hat" on. Other forums would remove members for disrespecting the forum (the staff and the rules are the forum's foundation), and don't think I won't do the same, because I have before, and will again if necessary to maintain the integrity of your/mine/our community here.