What G1 characterizations have been improved upon?

One of the recent other threads got me thinking about this.

G1 was pretty good at giving giant alien robots unique personalities. In fact some people credit part of the success of the brand being the Tech Specs, turning transforming trucks and cars into real characters you could take an interest in. The G1 cartoon was pretty good at giving their characters personalities too, such as Beachcomber being a hippy, Megatron believing in his cause more than just being a megalomaniac ("the Decepticon cause supersedes personal vengeance") and Rodimus Prime living in his predecessors shadow. Part of the reason I didn't really get into The Unicron Wars trilogy was that most characters were either just soldiers following orders or were quite one-dimensional.

But what G1 characters have been made better?

These are the ones that spring to mind:

Swindle: A personal favorite! G1 Swindle was arguable the most spotlighted of the Combiner characters, having a whole episode based around him selling off his comrades parts, and even defying Galvatron by not handing over Metroplex's Transforming Cog unless Galv offered to pay more than the Autobots.
However Animated Swindle was awesome! Everything from the way he spoke to the way he acted to the fact he even had a little tie just screamed that he was interplanetary munitions dealer with the pater and oil pump of a used car salesman. Fred Willard really brought the character to life!


Ratchet: Ratchtet was a pretty friendly and light hearted bot in the G1 cartoon (much like most of the others) who occasionally got a bit grumpy with his patients or if someone like Sparkplug challenged his medical prowess.
In Animated, Ratchet got made a grumpy doctor who deep down still had a spark of gold. This characterization seemed to just fit him so well! Subsequently the Ratchet that has shown up in TFPrime, RID and even the G1(ish) IDW have all taken on this persona.


Thundercracker: In the G1 cartoon he never really showed his conflicted nature regarding the war that the tech-spec discussed. The most was he was willing to let Skyfire destroy a weapon to get Starscream into trouble.
In IDW we got to see Thundercracker betray the Decepticons as he couldn't rationalize murdering millions of humans in a cowardly bomb strike just to win a battle. This has lead him to now be allied with a human (and dog) as his best friends. I liked Thundercracker a bit more when he was still a bit of a sod, like refusing Bumblebee's offer to join him, but still it has made him a much more interesting character.

Sunstorm: He only appeared in one episode right at the start of the G1 cartoon and his tech spec only lists his abilities.
In Dreamwave, Sunstorm became what can only be called a superpowered religious zealot who believed he was on a divine mission and all that stood in the way of his holy crusade must be destroyed for the greater good. It was a very cool story arc and remains some of my favorite DW comics!


Ravage: Had a cool tech spec and was pretty damn cool in the cartoon, but only spoke/radioed once and often got beaten by mere humans (his weakness ironically is stacks of VHS tapes).
In Beast Wars, where he was pretty much the same character, just waaay in the future-slash-past. But you got to see him hand pretty much any Predacon or Maximal he came across their skid plates, talked a lot and in particular his discussed his loyalty to G1 Megatron, and used his cassette mode to take control of a vehicle. Yeah, he was bipedal now and to be honest the fact he lacked a quadruped mode irked me somewhat, but it was a very cool outing for him and expanded the on-screen character into something more than just a growling animal.


Ratbat: In the G1 cartoon he mainly operated as a spy and his tech spec talked about him being a fuel scout. Not particularly rounded out.
In the Marvel comics, Ratbat got made a leader, who operated primarily from the basis of gauging the gain-loss in energon of potential encounters. He was able to put constrictions on Shockwave and even ordered Trypticon about! This was built on in the Dreamwave comics by him leading his own faction of Ultracons and in IDW being a senator who once again (briefly) rose to lead the Decepticons in the aftermath of the Civil War. Resulted in some great toys too!


Metroplex: In the G1 cartoon he existed primarily it seemed to battle Trypticon and defeat him, as well as acting as the Autobots main base of operations on Earth. His tech spec talks about his personality briefly but mainly discusses his abilities, which considering the toy was understandable.
In IDW Metroplex is a Titan and has had an entire mythos based around him and his compatriots, the Titans becoming a huge part of the IDW lore! No Six-Gun or Slammer which is disappointing but at least Scamper got an outing in a comic and the toy.


So which G1 characters do you think have been improved upon (characterizations - not toys) in either the comics or other cartoon series/universes?



Notes:
*Honorable mentions go to TFPrime's Wheeljack and Ultra Magnus, though i don't think they are particularly better. I also loved Animated Blurr using his super speed I'll leave IDW's Swerve for someone else to discuss :)
*If I was going to list characters that have been made worse I'd site RID Grimlock, Energon Ironhide and Armada Sideswipe to name just a few.

With some of these characters (e.g. Thundercracker, Ravage, Swindle etc.), the characterisations were always there from the original toy tech spec bios. It's just that more recent writers have finally exploited the source material. Especially Thundercracker. Ravage did speak and have more of a personality in the G1 comics though. It was Ravage who snapped Shockwave out of his mindless stupor during the Time Wars. :)

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

With some of these characters (e.g. Thundercracker, Ravage, Swindle etc.), the characterisations were always there from the original toy tech spec bios. It's just that more recent writers have finally exploited the source material. Especially Thundercracker. Ravage did speak and have more of a personality in the G1 comics though. It was Ravage who snapped Shockwave out of his mindless stupor during the Time Wars. :)

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Thundercrackers Tech Spec:

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"The deadliest weapon is terror."

Contemptuous of anything that cannot fly. Not totally convinced of the Decepticons' cause, but they persuaded him to continue battling Autobots. Flies at speeds up to 1500 mph... produces controlled, deafening sonic booms that can be heard for 200 miles. Equipped with powerful drone rockets and incendiary gun. Doubts about cause sometimes impede effectiveness.

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You are saying THAT equates to "Becomes best friends with a human. Carries a pet dog everywhere he loves" and everything else IDW added? If all the writers are doing are exploiting the source material then why doesn't Thundercracker hate humans and dogs because they can't fly? Why isn't he using terror in all his fights rather than quips and humor?

Ravage's tech spec says nothing about his feelings of loyalty to G1 Megs or turning into a cassette to belt out rocking tunes. Swindles does describe him pretty much as he appeared in Animated but Fred Willards portrayal took him to new heights in my opinion.

Just join in the fun Gok - if it helps feel free to redefine my question as "which renditions of characters in other media have expanded their characterization from the original G1 cartoon & tech spec" ;)


Edit: Actually, to avoid semantics I'll distill it down even further "Is there a newer version of a G1 character you like better?"

E.g: "I like the Thundercracker portrayed in IDW better than the Thundercracker portrayed in the G1 cartoon because..." :)

I always felt with Arcee they made a 80s action woman bio for her then when writing the show either didn't know what to do with her, or weren't allowed to.

Say what you will about the modern interpretations, at least she isn't shuffled around from bot to bot to Daniel as an accessory anymore. That felt off even for as a kid in the 80s. I forgot how much I wanted her to deck Hot Rod, Springer, and step on Daniel then get back to kicking tail pipe with the serious Autobots. Makes me glad I didn't see the Japanese stuff.

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Originally Posted by Jellico

I always felt with Arcee they made a 80s action woman bio for her then when writing the show either didn't know what to do with her, or weren't allowed to.

Say what you will about the modern interpretations, at least she isn't shuffled around from bot to bot to Daniel as an accessory anymore. That felt off even for as a kid in the 80s. I forgot how much I wanted her to deck Hot Rod, Springer, and step on Daniel then get back to kicking tail pipe with the serious Autobots. Makes me glad I didn't see the Japanese stuff.

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I'm watching season 3 at the moment. I'm really beginning to hate Arcee and here stereotyped crap.

Oh no, Springer just got sucked up into a machine, I guess the only thing I can do is scream like a helpless woman!

There are problems with IDW's Acree but at least when I was reading the series the sexist stereotypes were not so much of a thing with that version of Arcee.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

With some of these characters (e.g. Thundercracker, Ravage, Swindle etc.), the characterisations were always there from the original toy tech spec bios. It's just that more recent writers have finally exploited the source material. Especially Thundercracker. Ravage did speak and have more of a personality in the G1 comics though. It was Ravage who snapped Shockwave out of his mindless stupor during the Time Wars. :)

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You're giving the tech specs way to much credit here. And I think that's purely because they're the 'source material'.

I've got to say in general I think Roberts has been great at establishing 'definitive' voices for some characters. I would never want to back to the original Cyclonus compared to the IDW character. Or Rewind. Or Whirl (who I don't even know of any real prior characterization and dismissed entirely on the toy originally).

One that springs to my mind is Springer. In the 1986 movie and season 3 of the cartoon, he just acted and sounded like a generic Autobot. Tough and heroic Autobots like him were a dime-a-dozen in the first 2 seasons of the cartoon (e.g. Brawn, Sideswipe, Ironhide, etc.). His role in the Marvel comics as the Wreckers leader really made him stand out. Then comes IDW where they released the book 'Last Stand of the Wreckers', which in my opinion is one of the best Transformer stories written so far, a prime example showing not every Transformers story needs big characters like Optimus Prime or Megatron to be good.

My last comment was brief because I was in the middle of work (I've only just gotten home) and didn't have time to elaborate on my views - but what you guys said about IDW writers expanding on the source material is correct.

Anyway, in the intended spirit of this thread, here are my favourite new characterisations of G1 characters. I've got 2 categories:
* Favourite expanded characterisation - this is where the writers have taken the original character's G1 persona and built on it.
* Favourite new characterisation - this is where the writers have basically ignored the original character's G1 persona and made something new.

Favourite Expanded Characterisation: Ironfist
In the toy's original bio, we know that Ironfist is a genius and crafting all manner of weaponry. Kinda like the Autobot equivalent of Hephaestos/Vulcan or Howard Stark. He forged new weapons for the Autobots. But that was more or less all we knew. The IDW comics delved way deeper and also gave him the additional personality trait of being this nerdy engineer -- cooped up and an extreme fan-boy of the Autobots in the field, especially the Wreckers. And of course the fan admin of Autopedia. :)

Other honourable mentions: Swerve, Hubcap, Thundercracker, Whirl

Favourite New Characterisation: Tailgate
IDW is nothing like his G1 persona but still an extremely cool character! :D

Other honourable mentions: Cyclonus, Star Sabre, Pyro, Rotorstorm

Thinking about it now, if I pick a character who I think has gotten worse than better, I'd say Blaster.

I loved Blaster as a kid. He was a fun and quirky character, who transformed into a boombox (rare for an Autobot), and he sounded like Cat from Red Dwarf. The Marvel comics made him shine; he had a lot of good moments like his rivalry with Straxus, and the time he clashed with Grimlock over leadership of the Autobots. The IDW version, which is most recent, seems to me like the weaker portrayal of the character. He seems so generic, with very few stand-out moments. Also the fact that he sided with Getaway in MTMTE makes him seem more like a tool. I know it's a different continuity, but C'MON; he lead an Autobot Civil War against Grimlock!

Two that spring to mind (and haven't been mentioned yet) are IDW's take on Skids and Transformers Prime's Ultra Magnus.

Basically everyone in MTMTE, including Megatron and (the more of a guest star) Prowl, and particularly all the Scavengers. In most cases just by giving the characters time to have personalities rather than just gimmicks/stereotypes.

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Originally Posted by FatalityPitt

Also the fact that he sided with Getaway in MTMTE makes him seem more like a tool. I know it's a different continuity, but C'MON; he lead an Autobot Civil War against Grimlock!

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While I agree Blaster has been under used, rebelling against the leadership on Lost Light, in this case Rodimus/Megatron, is not that different to rebelling against the leadership in the comics (Perceptor, Grimlock).

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Originally Posted by Jellico

I always felt with Arcee they made a 80s action woman bio for her then when writing the show either didn't know what to do with her, or weren't allowed to.

Say what you will about the modern interpretations, at least she isn't shuffled around from bot to bot to Daniel as an accessory anymore. That felt off even for as a kid in the 80s. I forgot how much I wanted her to deck Hot Rod, Springer, and step on Daniel then get back to kicking tail pipe with the serious Autobots. Makes me glad I didn't see the Japanese stuff.

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Originally Posted by DELTAprime

I'm watching season 3 at the moment. I'm really beginning to hate Arcee and here stereotyped crap.

Oh no, Springer just got sucked up into a machine, I guess the only thing I can do is scream like a helpless woman!

There are problems with IDW's Acree but at least when I was reading the series the sexist stereotypes were not so much of a thing with that version of Arcee.

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In regards to the female characters from the G1 cartoon that have appeared in IDW.

Arcee: In IDW origin story longer really makes a lot of sense now that it turns out female Transformers are quite prevalent, though I'm sure it sorta still works within the timeline. However over all the character is much better in IDW here than the cartoon.

Elita-1: A strong leader in both, I'm on the fence about her. I liked the idea that Optimus had a paramour in the cartoon and she is a less likeable character in IDW. However she can kick butt in both so I reckon she's neither better nor worse, just different.

Chromia: Neither better nor worse

Firestar: Her hair is better in IDW but I like the character less. Prefer the cartoons character who was tough and dependable and actually transformed.

Moonracer: Nope, don't like her much in IDW, liked her in the cartoon better.

Greenlight & Lancer: Naturally a lot better in IDW than the cartoon as in the cartoon all they did was fill in the background. As they have just joined in a new plotline in IDW I'll be interested to see them develop further. Also the only Femmebot-Femmebot relationship I've seen so far in Transformers (no idea if there are others but not to my knowledge).

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Originally Posted by Gouki

I would never want to back to the original Cyclonus compared to the IDW character.

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I dunno, I kinda liked the cartoon Cyclonus. Had a lot of honor for a Decepticon (even rescued Magnus once) and it was a change of pace to see a first lieutenant in the Cons that would stick by his leader no matter what, rather than before with Starscream who would try to seize power at the slightest opportunity.

Makes you think - Megs was a strong leader with a backstabbing second in command. Galvatron was a nutjob, but with a competent and supportive second in command. If Megs had had Cyclonus maybe they would have won :D


That said, I think Cyclonus is very cool in IDW. I think Thundercracker should have been more like him - no longer an 'Evil Con' but at the same time still tough and dangerous.

For me Transformers Prime is where characters on screen were ramped up.
Arcee is the standout but was also written for teenage boys to crush on I'm sure (BTT knows a lot about fembot love) but she is still a positive role model for young female viewers without being overboard.

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Originally Posted by Jetfire in the sky

For me Transformers Prime is where characters on screen were ramped up.

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For me with the TFPrime cartoon (my 2nd fav iteration after G1), this is how I felt/feel about the cartoon characters compared to their G1 cartoon counterparts:

Optimus: Worse than the G1 cartoon. But then EVERY Optimus is worse than the G1 cartoon, whether that be other other cartoon, comic or movie.
Why doesn't Optimus laugh anymore? :confused:

Bumblebee: Worse

Magnus: Thinking on it more, I reckon the Prime version is a bit better. I just didn't like that his Beast Hunters vehicle mode was just a blue version of Optimus. That said I ended up getting the Prime, Platinum Edition and Adventure toy versions

Wheeljack: I reckon equal. I loves me G1 Wheeljack but I also love Prime Wheeljack for different reasons because of their differing personalities. Both have an awesome alt-mode!

Smokescreen: A tough one - maybe equal.

Ratchet: Too dour so G1 wins. Animated Ratchet beats them both.

Cliffjumper: G1 was better, maybe if he had stayed alive longer in Prime I'd feel differently. Loved the character model and toy though!

Sky Lynx: Definetly worse - a bipedal mode rather than a space shuttle mode and is now a grubby Predacon?

Arcee: Should have been Chromia. Was meant to be Chromia but the powers that be decided that Arcee was a more recognizable name so changed it. I really like her, but no - she comes across to me as Chromia using an alias to me.


Megatron: I'm gonna get flayed alive for this! I think the Prime version is a bit better simply due to the way the cartoon was written. His personality and voice are the most reminiscent of G1 than any other cartoon I've ever seen (go Welker!) but he played the long game and didn't just have an insane new superweapon plan each episode. Plus his alt-mode lent itself to action sequences better than a gun.

Starscream: G1 is better but Prime is pretty good.

Breakdown: A bit better on-screeen in Prime due to being tough and gruff rather than nervy but G1 Breakdown was amongst my first ever dozen toys so he wins for me :D

Soundwave: Prime was cool, G1 was cooler

Shockwave: A hard one, but G1 still wins out for me just

Predaking: Both huge and powerful. Prime version was cool but G1 was cooler since he could disassemble into 5 separate Predacons.

Skyquake: I guess the Prime version wins since the G1 toy came well after the cartoon ended so in this context he counts as MIA/a no show. But I love my G1 Skyquake toy - he was the biggest TF I owned for years - was gutted when Overlord shot him dead in the back in IDW's SOTW.

Bomb/Hardshell: Like Breakdown and Wheeljack given a new personality. Hardshell was cool but Bombshell was a so much cooler and more interesting character.

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Originally Posted by Jetfire in the sky

Arcee is the standout but was also written for teenage boys to crush on I'm sure (BTT knows a lot about fembot love)

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There is a really messed up fan comic where Jack and Arcee are... well... lets just say they are trying to make a Transorganic quite vigorously - in both her modes! :eek:

Er.... a buddy of mine told me about it. Yeah, that's it, a buddy of mine.

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Originally Posted by Jetfire in the sky

For me Transformers Prime is where characters on screen were ramped up.
Arcee is the standout but was also written for teenage boys to crush on I'm sure (BTT knows a lot about fembot love) but she is still a positive role model for young female viewers without being overboard.

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For me, Prime was always trying to be dark and edgy. Right from the whole, "look at us, we killed the Rock in the first episode. Edgy!!!!!"

Animated WAS dark and edgy hiding behind a cute little girl. And it set the roots for a lot of the characters that became cemented in Prime and IDW. Bulkhead and Ratchet are the standout examples. But look at things like Magnus' Hammer. Creepier competent Shockwave. Lockdown. Competent conniving Starscream. Omega living up to his WMD bio. And because it played to the G1 crowd it had a background cast of thousands and had its little influences there too.

Most (but not all) of the IDW characters are really extensions of their original G1 personas, which I find really cool as it goes to show that the writers understand those characters and want to be faithful to the source material. I also love how Megatron and Galvatron are separate characters, which is also accurate to the G1 toy canon (and was reflected in some other G1 material like the Ladybird Books etc.). :) And where the characters are divorced from their G1 personas, they still manage to be interesting characters in their own right.

IDW Overlord, hands down.

Yeah, there was the Masterforce portrayal, but I'm someone who never watched them as a child and only saw advertisements for the toy in old Transformers comics and thought "man, that is a cool transformer, I wish I could find that..."

To watch the sadistic, cruel and powerful madman in action in Last Stand of the Wreckers was great. I liked the whole 'phase-sixer' idea too, even moreso that we got Leader class figures of each recently.

IDW Thunderwing was another example of a character I knew very little about and now wish they would hurry up and release a Leader figure of, purely because of Stormbringer. Makes the fact we probably won't be getting a POTP Thunderwing, despite him being an original pretender and made for that gimmick, a bitter pill to swallow... I like the extra lore we got for both Monstructor and Bludgeon as well, again characters that I would kill for a TR/POTP style release of.

The IDW Dinobots, Shockwave and Cyclonus stories have been good to follow too, not necessarily different interpretations but certainly different stories for the characters. I'm hoping once Grimlock gets 'better' he isn't a total let down.

IDW not without its faults though...

IDW Overlord is based on Hasbro Overlord, not Takara Overlord.

I personally prefer G1 Thunderwing over IDW Thunderwing to be honest. IDW Thunderwing is definitely more of a powerhouse, but I find him to be an utterly dull character. He's someone who tried to play god and then became a monster. Uummm... okay. G1 Thunderwing on the other had more character to him. He climbed up the ranks to become Decepticon leader and he actually cares about the Decepticons under his command. He does have a sense of responsibility towards those under his rule - it's not a position that he takes idly. He soon became obsessed with hunting down the Matrix. This desire soon ate away at his soul. One of the more emotionally moving moments was when Thunderwing backhanded Ruckus, and we see Thunderwing momentarily pausing as he realises what he has allowed himself to become, only for the Matrix-obsessed aspect of his personality to assert itself. This heightened even more when Thunderwing shot Spinister.

"...you... You... are a fellow Decepticon -- one of my loyal warriors! Spinister, I -- GET OUT OF MY HEAD!"

Longtooth experienced this madness too, but nowhere near to the same extent as Thunderwing. Longtooth was - very obviously - obsessed like Captain Ahab from Moby Dick. Thunderwing became more like Gollum from The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings!

https://image.ibb.co/b4AWA7/thunderwing_myprecious.jpg

That's not to say that I dislike IDW Thunderwing per se. They're both good antagonists for different reasons, but IDW Thunderwing I find to be more of a relentless and unstoppable creature rather than a person. G1 Thunderwing, once powered by the Matrix, was nigh-unstoppable too. The only thing that could destroy him in the end was Unicron.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

IDW Overlord is based on Hasbro Overlord, not Takara Overlord.

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The first time Overlord appeared in any media was in Masterforce, and unlike the rest of the cast the character was an original for the cartoon and his toy came later. As far as the western market he had a brief toy bio for his European/Australasian release, but that was all we saw of him until IDW released Last Stand of The Wreckers.

The new Hasbro TR/ Takara Legends toys came well after this new IDW iteration of Overlord, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Totally see where your coming from with Thunderwing, he was always a real contender for a competent and effective Decepticon leader with a fleshed out personality with a matrix affinity in his original comic appearances. I liked how IDW tied in the pretender shell part in their story, yeah he wasn't as deeply explored character development-wise but the Stormbringer story line was pretty interesting with Bludgeon and his crew and the Wreckers being called in (for the first time in IDW maybe). I loved the Thunderwing design/artwork, and would love to see it in a leader-sized toy.

But to be honest just really want a leader Thunderwing, so would be more than happy with a G1 take.

IDW Overlord is more influenced by the Hasbro toy's bio rather than Takara Overlord.

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"I stand my ground... I accept any challenge... I am hungry for conflict."

A legend by nature of his existence, he emerges as a new and deadly Decepticon anti-hero. This mighty machine has the Autobots guessing. No location is too remote and no terrain too tough for this megalithic power-monger. With amazing capabilities he traverses the dimensions, his multiple functions activated by Energon mini figures in engine mode. A tank to steamroll a path ahead and a jet for C-SAC duty (carrier, spy and air-combatant). The colossal body houses an arms manufacturing plant, producing a multitude of sophisticated super-weapons. The ultimate conversion is to Battle Station Complex. A strategic support base ready for the arrival of the Decepticon fleet... ready for all out war!
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↑IDW Overlord is pretty much this - hungering for conflict, an unstoppable force of destruction etc. The main thing that wasn't carried over was the battle station/base mode with the weapons plant, which is actually something that Hasbro carried over from Takara Overlord's tech specs:
「体内に兵器プラントを持ち、次々にミサイルや武器を生産する殺人兵器の集合体である。」
"Body houses weapons plant, producing and amassing a multitude of missiles and weapons."
IDW overlooked the base mode and Energon figures (Godmaster gimmick).

But that's where the similarity ends. Takara Overlord's persona is very different from Hasbro's. Whereas Hasbro Overlord is described as a relentless and unstoppable force who roams about the galaxy wreaking havoc, Takara Overlord is has a more noble personality. This culminates towards the end of Masterforce when Giga and Mega choose to leave Devil Z and ally themselves with Ginrai, and as punishment they were expelled from the Overlord transtector. And we know that at the end of Masterforce, Giga, Mega and the Decepticon Headmaster Jrs. go off to lead their lives as better people.

Post-Masterforce Takara Overlord really had zero personality. He was just a faceless goon in Transformers Zone. Really just put there alongside the others because by 1990 Takara's new Transformers were almost all Autobots. And they had to obscure these Decepticons with bling and capes because their toys were no longer in current production. Post-MF Overlord was little more than a plot complication, not a character.

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Originally Posted by Jellico

For me, Prime was always trying to be dark and edgy. Right from the whole, "look at us, we killed the Rock in the first episode. Edgy!!!!!"

Animated WAS dark and edgy hiding behind a cute little girl. And it set the roots for a lot of the characters that became cemented in Prime and IDW. Bulkhead and Ratchet are the standout examples. But look at things like Magnus' Hammer. Creepier competent Shockwave. Lockdown. Competent conniving Starscream. Omega living up to his WMD bio. And because it played to the G1 crowd it had a background cast of thousands and had its little influences there too.

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I haven't had the chance to watch Animated, from everything I have read/heard it is a very good show.

I have mixed feelings about Animated, but I don't want to derail this thread talking about it. The one Animated character who I feel was an improvement over his original namesake would be Omega Supreme. I really wish they'd give us an Animated Omega Supreme toy. Doesn't have to be a huge Titan Class figure -- a Leader, an Ultra, or even a good Voyager would suffice.

I found that Car Robots/RiD 2001 had an interesting take on Ultra Magnus in that while he is a tough fighter, he had a sibling rivalry with Optimus Prime, so they didn't always see eye to eye. I appreciated the fact that while he feels he has been denied his dues, he didn't come across as a jealous whiny little brother.

People often bemoan movieverse Optimus's seeming bloodthirstiness, comparing and contrasting him negatively with G1 cartoon Optimus, but I find that as a character, movieverse Optimus is actually more interesting than G1 cartoon Optimus. Movieverse Optimus strikes me as jaded by thousands of years of war, so much so that he knows that the Decepticons are a threat that needs to be put down quickly, especially since their war has now come to an innocent third party. That could be why he is so aggressive in battle, although part of me suspects that the writers/producers/Michael Bay took note of criticism that Optimus was thrown around like a rag doll by Megatron in the first movie and made him more aggressive in the sequels to compensate.

The other thing with movieverse Optimus is that he feels betrayal very keenly - he was betrayed first by his mentor, Sentinel Prime, which is probably part of what led him to declare "we will kill them all" upon arriving in Chicago in *DotM;* and then by humans before *AoE,* which left him with a negative attitude towards humans in authority positions.

Movieverse Wheelie was an improvement on G1 Wheelie, although to be honest, that's not a particularly high bar :D

Remember that God Magnus (RID Ultra Magnus) was never intended to be a version of Ultra Magnus, any more than RiD Grimlock is a version of Grimlock. Hasbro just reused these names to maintain trademark. I appreciate the God Magnus character too, but I don't see him as an Ultra Magnus.

The issue I have with Bayformers Prime isn't so much that he's different from G1, it's more to do with the inconsistencies and character contradictions. TF1 Optimus Prime only resorted to violence if he had to and took no pleasure from taking lives. Optimus Prime's plan was to stop Megatron, but failing that he would place the Cube into his own chest in order to merge it with his own Spark and destroy it. Ratchet reminded him that this would be suicide, but it was a risk he'd take to prevent the Cube from falling into Decepticon hands. Sam's idea was of course to take the Cube and shove it into Megatron's chest, killing him and destroying the AllSpark. And remember that when Sam had the Cube, Prime wanted Sam to give the Cube to him and push it into his chest, and when Sam instead shoved it into Megatron's chest Prime cried, "No, Sam!" Optimus Prime would sooner sacrifice himself than Megatron. Sam's decision is tactically more logical, but this showed us how TF1 Optimus Prime was more similar to the spirit of G1 Optimus Prime -- compassionate to a fault. Being more ruthless would make him a more effective commander but then he would no longer be Optimus Prime. This is the Optimus Prime that the first movie establishes.

Then in ROTF we see Homicidium Prime. The Autobots are leading NEST in hunting down the Decepticons, similar to how Cemetry Wind were hunting down all Transformers in Age of Extinction. When they found Scavenger and Sideways in Shanghai, they never offered them the chance of surrender. They looked like they were there to hunt them. Scavenger and Sideways immediately fled, and any NEST operatives that Scavenger killed was done so, really, in self defence. At the end of the scene we see a badly wounded and utterly helpless Scavenger. Optimus Prime then acts as judge, jury and executioner and executes Scavenger. They never attempted to capture and imprison these Decepticons - and we know from The Last Knight that the humans are capable of building and maintaining prisons for Cybertronians. Optimus Prime chose to kill Scavenger. And he even said, "Any last words?" before blasting Scavenger's head off -- this is at odds with what we saw in TF1 when Optimus Prime expressed regret over Megatron's fallen body, saying, "You left me no choice, brother."

Optimus Prime was already a veteran of the Cybertronian wars for millions of years, but he wasn't jaded. I find it incredulous to believe that after only 2 years he had a total personality flip just from hunting down Decepticon refugees. Really? Then there was the way that he seemed to relish killing The Fallen ("Give me your face!") -- again, totally at odds with his previous characterisation. And Revenge of the Fallen is a difficult film to defend considering that even Michael Bay has admitted it was rubbish.

DOTM Optimus Prime wasn't a whole lot better, again, the way that he just executed a defeated and helpless Sentinel Prime was in the same spirit was the way he dispatched Scavenger. Another execution of a P.O.W. Even if he felt that Sentinel deserved capital punishment, surely a sense of justice would dictate that Sentinel Prime be made to stand trial first. An international court could help decide Sentinel's fate and also help the humans to understand who was responsible rather than, ya know, allow Cemetery Wind to rise up and have all the Autobots be hunted down. Cos that sucks.

Okay, Optimus Prime becomes jaded in AOE and this actually makes sense considering how the humans that he fought to defend have turned against him and have hunted down and murdered his fellow Autobots. Optimus Prime's journey of rediscovering lost hope is a pretty decent one - the only character arc we see in any of the films. But AOE explains why Optimus Prime is so jaded. He doesn't suddenly decide to abandon the humans for no apparent reason. And even when he decides to care again, the movie does explain why. ROTF and DOTM provides no such explanation. He's just a bloodthirsty murder-bot now because reasons. :rolleyes:

Killing all the Decepticons in Chicago or even the Vehicons in Hong Kong was different. Those were active combatants, not defeated POWs. He was fighting to liberate those cities from enemy occupation. When Sentinel Prime was defeated, the threat to Chicago had already passed. There was no longer any need to keep fighting him, let alone killing him. It's a war crime. The execution of Sentinel Prime reminds me of the scene in Saving Private Ryan - at the end of the Omaha Beach Battle - when American forces committing atrocities against defeated Nazi combatants (which is historically accurate). One scene shows American soldiers shooting into trenches to execute everyone inside. But there's this incredibly powerful scene where we see two soldiers in Nazi uniforms approaching two American soldiers with hands in the air surrendering. The Americans don't care about what the soldiers are saying and shooting them in cold blood, with one of them joking that they must have been saying, "Look, I washed for supper" and then laughing. These soldiers aren't even speaking German, they're speaking Czech! They're actually saying something like, "Please don't shoot us, we are Czech! We didn't kill anyone! We are Czech!" (feel free to correct me if my translation is incorrect) Germany had conquered Czechoslovakia in 1939 and many Czech POWs were forcibly conscripted from concentration camps into the Ost Battalion made up of combatants from Eastern European countries and the Soviet Union. And even the Germans in the trenches who had enlisted and chosen to fight for the Nazis were still shot in cold blood. This was deliberately done by Spielberg in order to show the audience that both sides committed atrocities in WWII - which is historically accurate. The difference is that Saving Private Ryan doesn't establish the soldiers committing these atrocities as being morally above that. Tom Hanks' character would be, and thus we don't see him partaking in this needless bloodshed. If Hanks' character had joined in, then it would be at odds with the way that the character was otherwise portrayed in the rest of the film. It would be as if he were two entirely separate characters blended into one... ya know, like M.J. Watson was in the first Raimi Spider-Man film. ;)

I do agree that Movieverse Wheelie was an improvement. :)

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

The issue I have with Bayformers Prime isn't so much that he's different from G1, it's more to do with the inconsistencies and character contradictions. TF1 Optimus Prime only resorted to violence if he had to and took no pleasure from taking lives. Optimus Prime's plan was to stop Megatron, but failing that he would place the Cube into his own chest in order to merge it with his own Spark and destroy it. Ratchet reminded him that this would be suicide, but it was a risk he'd take to prevent the Cube from falling into Decepticon hands. Sam's idea was of course to take the Cube and shove it into Megatron's chest, killing him and destroying the AllSpark. And remember that when Sam had the Cube, Prime wanted Sam to give the Cube to him and push it into his chest, and when Sam instead shoved it into Megatron's chest Prime cried, "No, Sam!" Optimus Prime would sooner sacrifice himself than Megatron. Sam's decision is tactically more logical, but this showed us how TF1 Optimus Prime was more similar to the spirit of G1 Optimus Prime -- compassionate to a fault. Being more ruthless would make him a more effective commander but then he would no longer be Optimus Prime. This is the Optimus Prime that the first movie establishes.

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You have exactly explained why I hate the Bay movies except the first one.
Prime is the greatest hero ever and this is how for my child self and adult self believes Prime would act.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Remember that God Magnus (RID Ultra Magnus) was never intended to be a version of Ultra Magnus, any more than RiD Grimlock is a version of Grimlock. Hasbro just reused these names to maintain trademark. I appreciate the God Magnus character too, but I don't see him as an Ultra Magnus.

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Course they bloody were!

Ultra Magnus G1: A blue and white car-carrier truck who shared a (cab) mold with Optimus Prime
Ultra Magnus RID(01): A blue and white car-carrier truck who was the the brother of Optimus Prime

Grimlock G1: Turns into a Tyrannosaurus and is leader of the Dinobots, who decides to work with the Autobots
Grimlock RID(15): Turns into a Tyrannosaurus who is a Dinobot and decides to work with the Autobots

What? All of these similarities with their G1 counterparts were just amazing coincidences? :rolleyes:

If all they were doing was 'maintaining trademark' then why didn't they name the RID(01) Race Car 'Ultra Magnus' and the RID(01) Car Carrier Truck 'Mirage'?
Or name the red RID(15) car 'Grimlock' and the RID(15) dinosaur 'Sideswipe'?

Course they bloody took into account what namesakes the toys were based on! To think otherwise is ludicrous :rolleyes:

That said, there are many examples that would fit your argument. Many times - too many times - they DO randomly use the old names to maintain trademark - like having an Orange Autobot Crane Truck in Armada named 'Smokescreen' for instance. Or a Machine Wars Blue Decepticon Fighter Jet named 'Megatron'.

So I don't discount your argument because in so many cases it would hold true - but I think the two examples you used don't stand up to scrutiny

I said RiD Grimlock (aka Build Hurricane), not RiD2015 Grimlock. I'm not saying that the homage to G1 Ultra Magnus isn't there in God Magnus, but I just don't think that it was really intended to be a direct version of Ultra Magnus. Rather a new character who is inspired by or is intended to be a tribute to Ultra Magnus.

Don't forget that God Magnus is also a tribute to Godbomber, the Autobot who combines with Ginrai to form God Ginrai. Like Godbomber, God Magnus combines with Fire Convoy to form God Fire Convoy. When they combine, they say 超巨大合体ゴッドファイヤーコンボイ ("Super Giant Merge, God Fire Convoy!"). This is similar to the activation command for when Ginrai and Godbomber merge by saying, 超神合体ゴッドジンライ (Super God Merge God Ginrai) And of course, Godbomber comes from the series 超神マスターフォース (Super God Masterforce). This is why his name is God Magnus, and not "Ultra Magnus" nor "Godbomber." It's a double homage to two characters. And of course, God Magnus' personality is nothing like any Ultra Magnus that's come before or after. This may be subjective but I personally don't see him as an Ultra Magnus.

One (but not the only) reason why Hasbro probably changed the name from God Magnus to Ultra Magnus was likely because they wanted to avoid using the word "God" in fear of offending conservative religious parents. This is likely why Hasbro's release of reissue Godbomber was called "Apex Armour." Oh my Apex! :p

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

I said RiD Grimlock (aka Build Hurricane), not RiD2015 Grimlock. I'm not saying that the homage to G1 Ultra Magnus isn't there in God Magnus, but I just don't think that it was really intended to be a direct version of Ultra Magnus. Rather a new character who is inspired by or is intended to be a tribute to Ultra Magnus.
p

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Ok, righto. I don’t think you actually specified which version of RID you were discussing the Grimlock of, but that also means I shouldn’t have made the assumption you were talking about the new one. Grimlock rant retracted and yep you are right - Hasbro was just reusing the name.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Remember that God Magnus (RID Ultra Magnus) was never intended to be a version of Ultra Magnus, any more than RiD Grimlock is a version of Grimlock. Hasbro just reused these names to maintain trademark. I appreciate the God Magnus character too, but I don't see him as an Ultra Magnus.

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Ok, fair enough. Trev did point out that there was a method to naming God Magnus Ultra Magnus, though. That said, you're right and name reassignment is by no means new.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

Then in ROTF we see Homicidium Prime. The Autobots are leading NEST in hunting down the Decepticons, similar to how Cemetry Wind were hunting down all Transformers in Age of Extinction. When they found Scavenger and Sideways in Shanghai, they never offered them the chance of surrender. They looked like they were there to hunt them. Scavenger and Sideways immediately fled, and any NEST operatives that Scavenger killed was done so, really, in self defence. At the end of the scene we see a badly wounded and utterly helpless Scavenger. Optimus Prime then acts as judge, jury and executioner and executes Scavenger. They never attempted to capture and imprison these Decepticons - and we know from The Last Knight that the humans are capable of building and maintaining prisons for Cybertronians. Optimus Prime chose to kill Scavenger. And he even said, "Any last words?" before blasting Scavenger's head off -- this is at odds with what we saw in TF1 when Optimus Prime expressed regret over Megatron's fallen body, saying, "You left me no choice, brother."

Optimus Prime was already a veteran of the Cybertronian wars for millions of years, but he wasn't jaded. I find it incredulous to believe that after only 2 years he had a total personality flip just from hunting down Decepticon refugees. Really? Then there was the way that he seemed to relish killing The Fallen ("Give me your face!") -- again, totally at odds with his previous characterisation.

DOTM Optimus Prime wasn't a whole lot better, again, the way that he just executed a defeated and helpless Sentinel Prime was in the same spirit was the way he dispatched Scavenger. Another execution of a P.O.W. Even if he felt that Sentinel deserved capital punishment, surely a sense of justice would dictate that Sentinel Prime be made to stand trial first. An international court could help decide Sentinel's fate and also help the humans to understand who was responsible rather than, ya know, allow Cemetery Wind to rise up and have all the Autobots be hunted down. Cos that sucks.

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Like I posted earlier, I suspect that the writers/producers/Michael Bay took note of fans' displeasure that Optimus was easily beaten by Megatron in the first movie and made him more aggressive in the sequels to compensate. Then again, even in the first movie Optimus isn't afraid to fight dirty; he kills Bonecrusher by stabbing him in the neck and decapitating him, and in the novelisation he slams Barricade against a pillar. Perhaps "any last words?" is part of making him more, well, badass.

Realistically, what are NEST and the Autobots meant to do with any Decepticons who survive to be taken prisoner? There was no place they could place or even transport them that would be capable of holding them. The idea of imprisoning Decepticons isn't even a thing until The Last Knight, and by then there are dedicated facilities for their incarceration due to anti-Transformer operations being in place for more than two years (if I remember correctly, it was six years between DotM and AoE).

Yes, "give me your face" was pretty out there, but I suppose Optimus is angry and aggressive because the Fallen represented evil in his eyes; he killed his fellow Primes and wanted to turn on the Harvester at the expense of billions of human lives. Or, again, it could be just another case of making Optimus more badass.

People like to point out that Optimus killed Sentinel without mercy, but they seem to forget that Optimus himself begged for his life after losing his arm, and Sentinel just kicked him and got ready to deliver a killing blow. Also, the context, again, is that Optimus saw his mentor side with the enemy he's spent thousands of years fighting, blackmail him and his Autobots into leaving Earth only to be attacked, and then occupy a city and attack its inhabitants. All this without Optimus even knowing that the plan was to turn Earth's human population into a race of slave labourers. I think he was justifiably angry. Even so, he wasn't proud of killing Sentinel or gloating; he gets back up and throws Megatron's gun away rather than raising his arm triumphantly or cheering.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

And Revenge of the Fallen is a difficult film to defend considering that even Michael Bay has admitted it was rubbish.

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At the risk of throwing this thread off-topic, people like to throw out the part where Bay seems to admit RotF was 'crap' without the all-important context. He acknowledges that the movie wasn't made under the best of circumstances and the end product suffered as a result, but he never actually says the movie is 'crap'. This is the full quote from Empire:

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“We made some mistakes,” admits Bay. “The real fault with [Transformers 2] is that it ran into a mystical world. When I look back at it, that was crap. The writers’ strike was coming hard and fast. It was just terrible to do a movie where you’ve got to have a story in three weeks.”

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He's referring to Sam's near-death experience where he sees the other six ancient Primes, not the movie as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Then again, even in the first movie Optimus isn't afraid to fight dirty; he kills Bonecrusher by stabbing him in the neck and decapitating him

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Killing Bonecrusher was a completely different thing because that was in combat. Bonecrusher was an active combatant who was KIA. I'm not saying that Optimus Prime was a pacifist, I'm saying that in the first movie he was a reluctant user of violence, but he would definitely use violence if he had to. Bonecrusher was killing humans on the highway - he was an imminent threat to civilians. Bonecrusher was not an executed prisoner of war.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Realistically, what are NEST and the Autobots meant to do with any Decepticons who survive to be taken prisoner? There was no place they could place or even transport them that would be capable of holding them. The idea of imprisoning Decepticons isn't even a thing until The Last Knight, and by then there are dedicated facilities for their incarceration due to anti-Transformer operations being in place for more than two years (if I remember correctly, it was six years between DotM and AoE).

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Then the story ought to explain this to the audience. Leaving the audience to invent excuses is a sign of poor story-telling. And the prisons that the Decepticons had in TLK didn't seem terribly sophisticated. Basically big lockable pits. If they were able to build a spaceship on Earth (the Xantium) then I think they could build some pits.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Yes, "give me your face" was pretty out there, but I suppose Optimus is angry and aggressive because the Fallen represented evil in his eyes; he killed his fellow Primes and wanted to turn on the Harvester at the expense of billions of human lives.

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Sure, but heroes are meant to be above the idea of revenge. In Star Wars this is one defining trait that separates the Jedi from the Sith. The hero is supposed to take the moral high ground, that's what separates him/her from the villain.

"At last we shall have revenge."
- Darth Maul (The Phantom Menace)

Padmé: "To be angry is to be human."
Anakin: "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."
(Attack of the Clones)

"I shouldn't have done that. It's not the Jedi way."
- Anakin Skywalker (Revenge of the Sith)

"Anger... fear... aggression. The dark side of the Force are they."
- Yoda (The Empire Strikes Back)

"Give in to your anger."
"Let the hate flow through you."
"Good! Your hate has made you more powerful."
- Palpatine (Return of the Jedi)

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Originally Posted by Magnus

People like to point out that Optimus killed Sentinel without mercy, but they seem to forget that Optimus himself begged for his life after losing his arm, and Sentinel just kicked him and got ready to deliver a killing blow.

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But that was still in mid-combat. Even if Sentinel had killed Optimus then, he would've been on higher moral grounds than what Optimus did. Optimus Prime was wounded, but not a defeated opponent. Also, Optimus just said, "Please..." -- I took this as a plea to try to reason with Sentinel. Asking him to stop his plans. But maybe that's just my interpretation... it is only one interrupted word.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Also, the context, again, is that Optimus saw his mentor side with the enemy he's spent thousands of years fighting, blackmail him and his Autobots into leaving Earth only to be attacked, and then occupy a city and attack its inhabitants. All this without Optimus even knowing that the plan was to turn Earth's human population into a race of slave labourers. I think he was justifiably angry.

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https://image.ibb.co/nrEw5H/temp.jpg

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Even so, he wasn't proud of killing Sentinel or gloating; he gets back up and throws Megatron's gun away rather than raising his arm triumphantly or cheering.

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SENTINEL: "Optimus, all I ever wanted was the survival of our race. You must see why... I had to betray you."
OPTIMUS: "You didn't betray me. You betrayed yourself."
SENTINEL: "NO, OPTIMUS!" *boom* "GAH!" *boom* "AAARGH!"

Sentinel is literally on his hands and knees. He's not fighting. And he screams at Optimus Prime, begging for him to stop. And Optimus says nothing to express any regret over this action later, not like he did when he killed Megatron in TF1 ("You left me no choice, brother."). A quick line like this makes a big difference.

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Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime

One scene shows American soldiers shooting into trenches to execute everyone inside. But there's this incredibly powerful scene where we see two soldiers in Nazi uniforms approaching two American soldiers with hands in the air surrendering. The Americans don't care about what the soldiers are saying and shooting them in cold blood, with one of them joking that they must have been saying, "Look, I washed for supper" and then laughing. These soldiers aren't even speaking German, they're speaking Czech! They're actually saying something like, "Please don't shoot us, we are Czech! We didn't kill anyone! We are Czech!"

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Really, I wish that was subtitled because that has been entirely lost on me for the nearly two decades since the movie came out. I had no idea that they were Czechs, I always just assumed they were regular Nazi soldiers as I failed German hard.

And yeah I hate everything about movie Optimus Prime except for the design of robot and truck. Optimus Prime is Captain America not Red Skull.