Point of diminishing returns on Masterpiece

[BigTransformerTrev]

oh no I meant is like is coming to a point whether is a MP worth making as we are almost closely looking at similar standard of products.

Ah fair enough, an interesting viewpoint

[kurdt_the_goat]

Of course I'm factoring in price. And I take your point about regular consumer toy vs collector grade, but this factor cuts both ways. e.g. Considering that the original Ultra Optimus Primal toy was a general mass release kids' toy it is really an exceptionally fantastic figure. This is why I consider it to be on par with MP Beast Convoy. Yes, MP Beast Convoy is a much more advanced toy, but it's also quadruple the price. MP Beast Convoy is like a luxury sports car whereas the original is like a really nice regular car. You can say that both are just as good as each other given their relative price, and yes, target market etc. Price is the easiest factor for me as it also indicates how much money was allocated to the toy's R&D budget and it gives you a direct indication of dollar value. It's not the sole indicator of a toy's value, but it's a pretty obvious one to see.

I don't want to dwell on the point, but maybe "quadruple the price" isn't that fair though. I guess you're remembering from childhood or you found the original Ultra's AU price? But 3 years ago they re-released it for 6500Y, which puts it around half as expensive as MP Beast Convoy at 12000Y. That's a fairer comparison I think.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

It's kind of hard to see most of Animated or Prime benefiting much from a Masterpiece treatment. Apart from maybe Lugnut or Knockout.
Beast Wars depends on the toy/character IMO. I only have Cheetor, not interested in Optimus Primal because I'm happy with the Transmetal one. I'll skip on Dinobot too, though I do think it looks nice - I just like the Transmetal 2 design better, and like Dinobot as a villain for the Odieverse. But damn if TM2 Dinobot couldn't do with a better toy. Rampage and Depth Charge are fine as is, but I could really go a TM2 Megatron - in fact it's my Number 1 most-wanted MP, not that I think we'll ever get one. Voyager Rhinox is good enough for me, but I would probably upgrade to an MP if/when they make an MP Rhinox. I'd also be all over an MP Beast Wars Ravage.

About the only 'really good' toy I would like to see an MP of is G2 Laser Prime/Black Convoy/RiD Scourge. The toy still holds up just fine, but it's such a nice, solid design with good play- and display options that I reckon it could make for a good Masterpiece as well.

[GoktimusPrime]

Trev: I know what you mean about Dinobot being a real mess of a toy, but I think a lot of it was inevitable considering the source materials that they're working from. It's just a nightmare concept trying to make a slavishly cartoon-accurate Dinobot toy. They could do better, but then the toy would be even dearer than it already is. I suspect that this is about as good as it gets at its already really expensive price point. :/ I have zero interest in getting this toy either way so it's a moot issue for me.

Soundwave highlights one of my big disappointments with the MP version. The batteries on the original were an awesomely innovative method of weapon storage and the failure to copy it was notable.

A fair point, and I would agree with what you say about the lack of weapons becoming batteries. Another weird point is the scale of the cassettes to the player. Although MP Soundwave is much larger than G1 Soundwave, the size of his cassette storage is the same width and height. Which is great because it means that G1 cassettes can fit inside MP Soundwave (just today I was showing a friend how my G1 Ratbat can fit inside MP Soundwave). But the downside is that in cassette player mode, the door looks way too small. But I can easily forgive it because I think that the cross-compatibility between the MP and G1 Cassettes is damn awesome. Like how MP Frumble's piledriver arms can fit on G1 Frumble's arms.

Is that enough? Probably. But not now. At the moment they are too close to the originals in quality. But in 10 years time toy design will have moved further on and the relevant children will be of an age where they want their old toys but with that premium collector's feel.

Yep, I can totally understand that too. I have no objection towards TakaraTOMY making post-G2 toys as MPs or CHUGs. I think it's great. But it just doesn't personally interest me, and I'll admit that a large part of it is because those lines weren't part of my childhood. G1 was my childhood. But that doesn't mean that I have anything against TakTOM making MP or CHUG toys of BW, Armada, Bayformers etc. I'm not going to be one of those party poopers who demands that HasTak only make toys that I'm interested in regardless of what the rest of the fandom may like.

I don't want to dwell on the point, but maybe "quadruple the price" isn't that fair though. I guess you're remembering from childhood or you found the original Ultra's AU price? But 3 years ago they re-released it for 6500Y, which puts it around half as expensive as MP Beast Convoy at 12000Y. That's a fairer comparison I think.

Fair point. I didn't think about adjusting for inflation while posting at 12:32am. #meaculpa
But yeah, that reissue price is also similar to our local RRP for more recent Ultra Class toys which would be $70. And yes, that would indeed be about half the price of MP Beast Convoy.

It's kind of hard to see most of Animated or Prime benefiting much from a Masterpiece treatment. Apart from maybe Lugnut or Knockout.

Maybe not MP but some of them might benefit from CHUG(esque) upgrades. Take TF2010 Lugnut and Lockdown for example. A massive improvements over the originals, and since both are the same size/price point as their originals we can make an easy direct comparison in terms of budget, price and value for money. Bumblebee and Optimus Prime are others that could benefit from better toys IMHO, but yeah, most Animated toys were pretty well made.

About the only 'really good' toy I would like to see an MP of is G2 Laser Prime/Black Convoy/RiD Scourge. The toy still holds up just fine, but it's such a nice, solid design with good play- and display options that I reckon it could make for a good Masterpiece as well.

I reckon those toys would end up being like MP Soundwave, Shockwave etc. -- they'd be nice, but in relative terms about on par with their originals. IMO Laser Optimus Prime remained the uncontested best Optimus Prime toy ever made until 2007... that's a good 12 year reign as the #1 OP toy.

[Trent]

I think it comes down to what your expectations regarding the toy are. A good place to look is the third party market. They are really starting to kick off with non-G1 MP style figures and the results are quite interesting. On one hand, Fans Hobby recently released a MP style Laser Prime/RID Scourge. And while I don't get own it, reviews have been positive. However, the general consensus is that it is not the massive step up from the original toy that some were expecting. But rather than a knock against this figure, it's more a reiteration of just how good the original Laser Prime was.

On the other hand, MakeToys have just released Galaxy Meteor, which is an MP style Cybertron/Galaxy Force Starscream. When this figure was announced, there was a lot of "This is not needed. The orginal is still a great figure that holds up well today!". But in hand, man is the MakeToys version a great figure. It's improved by adding ankle tilts, wrist articulation, double jointed knees, an ab crunch, swappable faces, increasing the range of articulation over the original and some clever transformation tricks. And once I had mine, I realized that this update was actually needed. I just didn't know it.

It's all about managing your expectations

[Magnus]

Since Primal was announced, some people have wanted Masterpieces of Transmetal figures.

I feel that there would be little benefit in making a MP of, say, Transmetal Optimus Primal, because the animation model is so close to the original toy anyway. The only real benefits would be new head sculpts and articulated fingers.

Optimal Optimus is another example. A MP would probably just do away with the spring-loaded forearms and maybe redo a few pieces, but I don't see it being a big improvement over the original. There's that third party Optimal Optimus that is actually less screen-accurate than the original, and I don't really get why it exists, because the original is readily available on eBay and the screen model is already very close to it.

Megatron may benefit from changes that improve the proportions a bit. Rampage and Depth Charge could do with a few improvements, but it probably wouldn't be a night-and-day improvement.

[GoktimusPrime]

PotP Transmetal Optimus Primal looks like he's going to be able to transform from his original Transmetal form to his Optimal Optimus form. It looks similar to what they've done for POTP Optimus Prime and Rodimus Prime where Orion Pax and Hot Rod merge with their trailers to become their Prime forms. Similarly it looks like TM Optimus Primal (bottom right) can merge with his "trailer" (centre) to become Optimal Optimus (left and top right). There's also this image of a Season 1 Optimus Primal Generations toy. I don't know if this is going to be a stand alone toy or if it's going to part of the "Evolutions" Optimus Primal toy seen in the other pic (I haven't been following the news that closely).

But yeah, I don't anticipate any 'improvements' to be particularly Earth-shattering. A CHUG Retrax on the other hand...

[DELTAprime]

The TM2 OP seems like it will be worse than what I already have which is the Super Class TM2 OP. That is another example of a figure I don't think would get much of an upgrade going to MP. The original toy is already extremely screen accurate and has great articulation. Aside from making the armour panels connect in a more secure fashion what can you really improve on?

[Jellico]

Yep, I can totally understand that too. I have no objection towards TakaraTOMY making post-G2 toys as MPs or CHUGs. I think it's great. But it just doesn't personally interest me, and I'll admit that a large part of it is because those lines weren't part of my childhood. G1 was my childhood. But that doesn't mean that I have anything against TakTOM making MP or CHUG toys of BW, Armada, Bayformers etc. I'm not going to be one of those party poopers who demands that HasTak only make toys that I'm interested in regardless of what the rest of the fandom may like.

There are quite modern CHUGs that I would be interested in. The inclusion of the Diaclone versions to me make the G1 Masterpieces sort of extended G1. So for example (and this will get groans) I could see and be happy with finally getting a properly done Windblade. I have suggested a Slipstream before. (The ladies stand out given the lack in the 80s). But you can think of modern characters that fit really easily into the G1 aesthetic that you could do Masterpiece style with licensed alt modes or improvements by getting a scale larger than Deluxe.

[DELTAprime]

There are quite modern CHUGs that I would be interested in. The inclusion of the Diaclone versions to me make the G1 Masterpieces sort of extended G1. So for example (and this will get groans) I could see and be happy with finally getting a properly done Windblade. I have suggested a Slipstream before. (The ladies stand out given the lack in the 80s). But you can think of modern characters that fit really easily into the G1 aesthetic that you could do Masterpiece style with licensed alt modes or improvements by getting a scale larger than Deluxe.

The modern additions to G1 have been good so far from my point of view. They haven't made anything repugnant like what we see in the Bayverse and have been respectful to G1. I have no issue picking up those CHUG figures and adding them to my G1 CHUG display like they were part of the team all along.

I just wish there were cheaper ways to pick up Nautica, Quickswitch and Grotesque.