DOTM - not excited? [possible spoils]

[Bartrim]

Yeah but you'd expect Optimus Prime to rise above petty feelings for revenge and act PROFESSIONAL.

For example say there's a guy who walks into a building and shoots innocent people, then the police arrive. Unless he's immediately threatening a life they're not going to get police snipers to take him down. First they're going to ask him to surrender. And if he DOES surrender, or say a cop shoots him in the leg and incapacitates him, would you expect the police to walk up to him and say, "Any last words?" before shooting him in the head at point blank range? Or would you expect the police to arrest him? If the police chose to shoot him, what do you think would happen to that officer?

Soldiers get into massive trouble if they abuse POWs in any way (e.g. humiliation, torture etc.). And the execution of POWs is considered barbaric.

Prime is not a professional soldier. None of the autobots are. They have been forced into war to preserve their way of life. Even if they have been at war for a millenia they are still civilians fighting a war that haven't had the proper training to act professional.

Also what about the fact that Demolisher wouldn't go willingly. He resisted arrest and it took Prime and Ironhide to physically restrain him. Also where would he be incarcerated? He is a war criminal on the run because his leader is dead. Even when he was crippled he didn't even surrender he made threats about "The Fallen" taking over Earth.

I've got no problem with the execution of Demolisher.

[Bartrim]

My issue was that it's a massive cop out, lets have the biggest con ever, that would make an awesome fight! But instead they snuffed him with an with a pew pew cannon. It was BORING.

Surely no one enjoyed seeing a cannon (regardless of location) kill devastator. It's the new definition of anti-climax.

This I agree with. I was hoping for a massive robot fight with autobots running and shooting. Maybe Prime flying around taking shots and Devastator lumbering about causing damage. Maybe a casualty or two as well.

[GoktimusPrime]

It is interesting that the movie novelisation just has Demolisher saying his final words after Prime's attack with no comment or kill shot from Prime. In the comic adaptation Furman has Prime say "I wish there was another way" as he delivers a fatal blow. Both seem more 'right' and suggest the adaptors weren't fans of that scene or the script was rewritten at a late stage.

Yep. That's a much better way of handling it (especially in the comic adaptation) than what happened in the movie. Just a short simple line like, "I wish there was another way." would have done the trick nicely.

I've interpretted the scene differently to yourself. Rather than simply being incapacitated, I see a Decepticon in a great deal of pain, beyond repair and close to death. The only thing Prime could do was to 'put him out of his misery' so to speak. He knew this and that's ultimately why he introduced Demolishor to his little friend. Perhaps he could have said something a bit better than 'Any last words?' but this is a war and sadly not everything happens the way it should.

Yeah but a small line just to indicate this to the audience would have made a massive difference, rather than leaving it ambiguous and looking like an execution.

I actually think it makes Prime a bit more interesting and less predictable than usual. *shrugs*

We had enough character contradictions in Beast Machines thanks. Don't need any more. Let's leave those seeds of the future lie buried in the past!

It's true ROTF sucked Devastator's very large balls, but I will defend the right for Prime or any other Autobot to kill Decepticons, even in a execution style manner. The Decepticons in the movieverse are unlike anything we have ever seen, they are far more sadistic and brutal then any other universe I know, they won't think twice about gutting a Autobot for the fun of it.

But the Autobots are meant to be the good guys - they're meant to have a higher standard of morals over the Decepticons. Not lower themselves to their same level. That's one thing that always separated Optimus Prime's other incarnations and made him distinct... as G1 Megatron once said in the episode "Heavy Metal War," Optimus Prime's only weakness is his sense of honour. In "Afterdeath" Optimus Prime voluntarily allowed himself to be killed (in fact he demanded it) after he lost to Megatron in a LAN game. Despite the fact that Megatron used a hack code to cheat, Optimus Prime insisted on keeping his deal with Megatron (that whoever died in the virtual world would have to die in reality too). And thus he was DESTROYED (and stayed dead until they rebuilt him as a Powermaster).

And we saw this in movieverse Optimus Prime too. In TF1 Optimus Prime repeatedly said that if he could not defeat Megatron then he would sacrifice himself by merging the AllSpark with his own Spark -- and even as Megatron came to finish him he told Sam to push the AllSpark into his chest. And when Sam decided to push it into Megatron's chest instead, Prime called out, "No Sam!" - and as mentioned before, Prime expressed regret to Megatron after his demise.

Perhaps the movie comics probably demonstrate this better than the actual movies themselves I guess: Demolisher slaughtered entire Autobot settlements on Cybertron, besides probably killing a load of people in China, he got what was coming to him, perhaps that factored in to Prime's decision to kill him?

Yeah I know Tales of the Fallen tried to justify the execution -- but of course, they wouldn't have had to do this if it didn't look like one in the first place. Obviously someone at IDW picked this up tried to see if they could try to justify the act. But as utterly merciless and relentless as Demolishor was, at the time he was completely incapacitated and no longer able to inflict any further harm or damage to anyone.

For example, if Allied Forces had managed to capture Hitler, would they execute him on the spot or arrest him so that he can stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

Megatron is commiting mass genocide on his own people, the Autobots are on the verge of extinction.

And yet Optimus Prime vehemently tried his best NOT to kill him (choosing to sacrifice his life over Megatron's (Sam chose the other option)) -- but even then, Megatron was killed in mid-fight, not after he was defeated. Megatron, Bonecrusher, Grindor, Alice etc. were killed in combat, not executed after defeat.

This is a war, at some point you gotta pick up a gun and start shooting, stop being a victim and start being a soldier.

Yeah, you shoot at people who are shooting at you. You don't shoot them after the fight is finished.

Unlike everybody else here, I have no problems with Optimus Prime executing Demolishor or Sideswipe slicing Sideways in half. Hey, they Decepticons are invading my planet, and the theme song says "The Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons."

lol

Beast Wars Megatron, the best Megatron, would like a word with you

+1

(Not referring to you specifically) People like to complain that these movies have little to do with Transformers and don't refer to enough Transformery things. The inclusion of the Fallen, even though that was handled poorly (there were some significant changes from earlier drafts of the script which weakened the Fallen's relationship with Megatron among other things), was a pretty huge in-reference to hardcore fans.

Yeah but I think it was Paulbot who said that the character also needs to make sense and appeal to non-fans too. :/

We saw the rail gun on screen. It was far away and fired. Attackers do not need always need be on screen with their victims, especially with longer-range weapons. That would be bad cinematography.

Check out the science behind rail guns. They hurt very, very much, even to Transformers, who are only invincible to human weapons if you use cartoon or All Hail Megatron story logic.

The US Navy's Railgun fires a 3.2kg projectile at 2.4km/s, meaning that the rounds land "more swiftly and with little to no warning compared to a volley of Tomahawk cruise missiles."

I agree that it's good that the movies aren't treating the Transformers like Gods. Modern human weapons ARE powerful and can hurt the Transformers... but at the same time, it seemed all too rather convenient that there just happened to be a US Navy vessel in close proximity to the pyramids at that exact time - and Simmons knew about it of course. What luck! Simmons should've bought a Lotto ticket that day.

Prime is not a professional soldier. None of the autobots are. They have been forced into war to preserve their way of life. Even if they have been at war for a millenia they are still civilians fighting a war that haven't had the proper training to act professional.

Yeah sure, most of the Autobots were civilians to start off with, but you'd think after millenia of warfare they would have devised rules of engagement and become a more professional unit. Also, they did have some professional soldiers amongst their ranks like Ironhide - and also, Prime was not that merciless in the first movie.

Also what about the fact that Demolisher wouldn't go willingly. He resisted arrest and it took Prime and Ironhide to physically restrain him. Also where would he be incarcerated? He is a war criminal on the run because his leader is dead. Even when he was crippled he didn't even surrender he made threats about "The Fallen" taking over Earth.

I've got no problem with the execution of Demolisher.

Yeah but all those horrible things he did before he was finally taken down is something that should be dealt with later after he's captured as a POW. And if the Autobots had no means of detaining him, and given that he's refusing to relent, or if he's mortally wounded, then again have someone SAY something to indicate this (like in the comic adaptation).

No matter how brutal or threatening or unrelenting an enemy combatant is, if you kill them after they've been defeated, that's execution which has been considered barbaric since the Middle Ages. For instance, as aggressively violent and hostile as the Black Knight was, and even after he continued threatening and taunting King Arthur after he was defeated, Arthur Pendragon maintained the moral high ground and galloped (coconutted) away.

"Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow b*****ds! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!"

[Bartrim]

But again no one has complained about the G1 movie where Optimus Prime has Megatron in his sights ready to execute him? To me the only difference between that scene and the execution of Demolisher is Hot Rod ruining it for everyone.

[Paulbot]

But again no one has complained about the G1 movie where Optimus Prime has Megatron in his sights ready to execute him? To me the only difference between that scene and the execution of Demolisher is Hot Rod ruining it for everyone.

I recall Optimus walking over slowly picking up his gun and when Megatron made a move, Prime raised quickly it to point at him to make him stop, a "freeze or I'll shoot". He had stopped Megatron, which is what he had set out to do. Megatron had fallen and he stood in victory, and despite how angry Prime would have been (with the death and destruction Megatron had caused at Autobot City) he didn't appear to be in a hurry to kill Megatron.

[Bartrim]

I recall Optimus walking over slowly picking up his gun and when Megatron made a move, Prime raised quickly it to point at him to make him stop, a "freeze or I'll shoot". He had stopped Megatron, which is what he had set out to do. Megatron had fallen and he stood in victory, and despite how angry Prime would have been (with the death and destruction Megatron had caused at Autobot City) he didn't appear to be in a hurry to kill Megatron.

I have the DVD in my work laptop and have it on as background noise at least twice a week while I do purchase orders. The scene happens as follows
Kup "Finish him off Prime! Do it now"
A wounded Optimus Prime slowly (because he is wounded) over to his rifle and picks it up. Walks towards Megatron and rises his rifle.
Megatron "Grant me mercy Optimus Prime. I beg of you" slowly crawls for concealed weapon
Optimus Prime (tensing up- I presume ready to fire. Anyone who has fired a real weapon knows that you do brace yourself for recoil) "You who are with out mercy now plead for it? I thought you were made of sterner stuff."

Cue Hot Rod to ruin it all.

Not much difference if youu ask me.

[Paulbot]

Even so, with Megatron's attack on the city we had just watched many beloved Autobots (Ironhide, Wheeljack, Prowl, Ratchet) killed so the audience wouldn't have been too upset if Prime had pulled the trigger.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up. Regardless of what post-movie comics might have given Demolisher as backstory, the audience hadn't built up any anger towards the character that made us feel he deserved to die. And that's a film making decision. If the Autobots had arrived to a scene where hundreds were dead due to this Decepticon's rampage it would have been more acceptable in film terms to see the character killed.

[GoktimusPrime]

The difference is that G1 Prime didn't actually pull the trigger. It could be argued that he was sorely tempted and maybe thought about executing Megatron, but the fact is that he didn't. For example in Revenge of the Sith Anakin Skywalker had a defeated Count Dooku at his mercy with two light sabres against his neck. At that point he became morally torn -- his Jedi training telling him not to kill Dooku, but Palpatine goading Anakin to kill him. In the end Anakin gave into the Dark Side (for a moment) and killed Dooku - although immediately after that he acknowledged that it was the wrong thing to do as he was an unarmed and defeated opponent ("It's not the Jedi way.").

Had Anakin had the fortitude to resist Palpatine's temptation and not kill Dooku, then who knows - he may never have embarked on his journey to the Dark Side and become Darth Vader. Luke Skywalker managed to succeed here were Anakin failed -- defeating Vader with his hand chopped off, Luke had the perfect opportunity to kill Vader. Palpatine even told him to kill his father and replace him as the new Sith, but Luke threw his light sabre away and chose the moral high ground telling the Emperor that he had failed to turn him to the Dark Side (so then the Emperor decided to kill Luke).

And I've never been the biggest fan of G1 cartoon Prime, aside from being a one-dimensional archetype (as many G1 cartoon characters are), he was often contradictory in his standards anyway, even before Transformers the Movie. Optimus Prime supposedly believes in freedom being the right of all sentient beings, yet when the Dinobots were created and proved to be troublesome because of their limited intelligence, Optimus Prime ordered that the Dinobots be shut down and indefinitely imprisoned by burying them in a cavern! What?!? (o_O) There was NO discussion about how to rehabilitate or assist the Dinobots, simply, that they "must never be activated again!" Nice.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up.

Pretty much. It's like say when Coalition forces found Saddam Hussein in hiding... imagine if the soldiers who found him decided to execute him there and then.

[Robzy]

Beast Wars Megatron, the best Megatron, would like a word with you

+1

-2 If you guys don't want him, I'll take Welkertron anyday!

Not much difference if youu ask me.

Even so, with Megatron's attack on the city we had just watched many beloved Autobots (Ironhide, Wheeljack, Prowl, Ratchet) killed so the audience wouldn't have been too upset if Prime had pulled the trigger.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up. Regardless of what post-movie comics might have given Demolisher as backstory, the audience hadn't built up any anger towards the character that made us feel he deserved to die. And that's a film making decision. If the Autobots had arrived to a scene where hundreds were dead due to this Decepticon's rampage it would have been more acceptable in film terms to see the character killed.

The difference is that G1 Prime didn't actually pull the trigger.
[snip]
For example in Revenge of the Sith Anakin Skywalker had a defeated Count Dooku at his mercy with two light sabres against his neck. [snip]In the end Anakin gave into the Dark Side (for a moment) and killed Dooku - although immediately after that he acknowledged that it was the wrong thing to do as he was an unarmed and defeated opponent ("It's not the Jedi way.").

Yeah, I agree with PB and GP. It's totally different IMO. I've never read any "extra material" for ROTF (shouldn't have to in order to watch a film ) and I have no idea why Prime killed him - except for because (apparently) he's doing bad things??? Ridiculous! In TF:TM the audience has seen Megatron personally slaughter Ironhide, Brawn and many others, not to mention leading an attack which has seen the deaths of countless others. We, as an audience, rally behind a champion to put a stop to this merciless killing spree. It's made even more tragic by the fact Prime fails... Megatron still (cunning as ever) secretly crawls towards the gun, raising the tension and ultimately kills Prime. It's a perfect cinematic moment... set the audience up for one thing (Prime saves the day) only to pull the rug out from underneath (Hot Rod gets in the way, Megs wins, Prime dies). It's more unexpected and tragic... Prime could have (and should have) ended it immediately, but he hesitated... and it cost him his life. He died a hero, instead of living and looking like an a$$ in ROTF. It's these subtle character elements that make us love characters or hate them. How many American action films, for example, have you seen where the hero has a chance to kill the villain but instead shows pity... only to have the baddie pull out a hidden weapon from his shoe, which causes the hero to fire a reactive shot! BANG! He's a hero... he didn't kill the guy in cold blood, he was only reacting to the bad guy's sneaky attack!

At the end of the day, it's all moot anyway. We're arguing about whether or not Prime has certain characteristics. The reality is, ROTF Prime was a construct of Michael Bay's direction... a guy who doesn't know or care enough about Transformers and their history anyway!

[kurdt_the_goat]

What exactly was Prime's choice? It's not like Demolisher had an "off" switch. If Prime didn't kill him, someone else would have to, lest he continue demolishing things!