Rodimus Prime as a leader

[Fonecrusher]

I really liked Headmasters but there were a few weak points that prevented that series from being a classic for me:

-Optimus Prime dying
Yet again

-Some characters "out of character"
Rodimus all of a sudden quiting the war, Kup never fighting just sitting around in the control room complaining, Scourge and especially Cyclonus, two of the most powerful and fearsome Decepticons being turned into benny hill type bumbling henchmen and I'm not even going to mention Sixshot!

-Cybertron being blown up
To me Cybertron is just as much a part of Transformers as Autobots and Decepticons are, blowing it up was a bad move IMO, and made it seem like everything, pretty much every Transformer had fought for, whether Bot or Con seem in vain.

And in the end the Headmasters themselves just weren't that cool as Transformers... I got sick of seeing Chromedrome vs Weird Wolf or Hardhead vs Skullcruncher every episode for half the season, they spent about 10 episodes building up Scorponoks arrival and he proved just as ineffective a Decepticon leader as Galvatron was. It wasn't till near the end we got to see the conflict on a much bigger scale.

But yeah Rodimus I don't mind as an Autobot, I like what IDW is doing with the character but he's a bit of a fail as a leader IMO.

[jimoinj]

I don't want to get into a fight, but I've got to say this. I think it's true that the G1 Japanese series had characters behaving in an out-of-character manner, quite inconsistent with the previous series. It felt like a separate series to me in its care-bears style also. The only thing it seemed to have in common with the original G1 series was the animation. If you like you can call it continuity, but as has been mentioned it contradicts beast wars as well as rebirth. If you do want to talk about the Japanese series as part of the G1 cartoon series continuity, then I think you would need to have also seen the original G1 series in the Japanese version and most others here should have too.

The comics are certainly a separate continuity, but when we are talking about canon I believe the G1 cartoon series and movie should come first. Just as when people talk about Star Trek or Star Wars, the movies are considered canon while comics and books are secondary. Because they are not the main product, which the G1 Transformers cartoon is.

But anyway feel free to disagree with me, just my view.

[Paulbot]

Uh no the comic book came first, May 1984. The cartoon started in September 1984.

"What's Transformers Canon?" is really an impossible question. To each their own, just be factually correct

[jimoinj]

No, by come first I mean first in importance.

[gekisou]

If you do want to talk about the Japanese series as part of the G1 cartoon series continuity, then I think you would need to have also seen the original G1 series in the Japanese version and most others here should have too.

Err... I have seen the original American version in Japanese... that's why I remark about the inconsistencies...

[GoktimusPrime]

No, by come first I mean first in importance.

"Importance" is entirely subjective because it completely depends on our own personal values and opinions - for which we all differ.

Furthermore the primary product of Transformers is not the cartoon. It's also not the comics either. Transformers is first and foremost a toy franchise. The toys came first, then came the comics, then came the cartoon -- so really, we have:

+ Primary product: Transformer toys from Hasbro
+ Secondary product: Transformer comics from Marvel
+ Tertiary product: Transformers cartoon from Sunbow

Err... I have seen the original American version in Japanese...

Where Rumble is red and Frenzy is blue!

I'm not trying to start a FIRRIB/RIRFIB debate here... just sayin' is all.

[ITZTRU]

I grew up watching and loving the G1 cartoons. To me personally, the cartoons are really what G1 is all about. I havent read a single g1 comic and i probably never will

Having said that, I completely agree with all of what Gok has been saying in regards to what is canon and what is not. What you choose to follow or favor is your own business. But you can't just ignore the other official stories. Without going back and "quoting" what people have said in this thread, I think I read before that someone (jimoinj?) didn't like the way The Headmasters was dubbed and therefore found it inferior and didn't believe it belonged in the G1 continuity. But if you look at it backwards, japanese fans could look at the rebirth, not like the way it was dubbed coz it was in english and completely disregard it as being canon -- which in jimoinj's opinion, is the way the g1 story should follow.

However, despite me being a G1 cartoon fan and still agreeing with most (if not all) of what gok has said...

RIBFIR will always be the case for me :P (and again, like gok...not wanting to start another debate...just sayin) hehe

(again, sorry if i misquoted people -- feel free to correct me if i quoted people or phrases wrongly)

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Looking at the Japanese one, it doesn't even seem like the G1 cartoon. It was childish, very poorly voiced, with weird scenes and friendship power circles. Reminded me more of care bears than Transformers!

Ermm, at risk of stirring the already-tempestuous pot, the US G1 cartoon wasn't really that great hey. It wasn't terrible by any means, and the voice work was mostly really good, but the Headmasters series wasn't much better or worse, especially once you take into account the Japanification. Personally I quite liked it for the most part - aside from moments like Daniel and Wheelie tricking Trypticon into falling down a ravine and Arcee = secretary it was a pretty decent addition to the TF franchise.
And the 'real men don't cry Danny' thing is just beautiful.

On the original topic ('toon Rodimus Prime), I'd say his 'lack of leadership' is more a result of overemphasising his insecurity to the point of Flanderisation, the relative lack of 'maturing' characterisation (though arguably the whole of TFTM is his traditional 'heroes journey', replete with learning the value of listening to his elders), the long-established nature of Optimus as 'the leader', and the general 'dumbing down' that seems to happen with the G1 'toon as the series progressed. Season 1 and the first half of season 2 were both pretty decent cartoons, but the latter half of season 2 and season 3 just seemed to get less and less, well, intelligent. Instead fo there being an occasional 'bad' episode with good ones being the norm, it became a case of the occasional gem amongst mostly average stories by 80s cartoon standards, and, well, Carnage in C-Minor. Put all those factors together and add in a belated 'Let's bring back Optimus 'cos it turns out kids care about the character as well as just buying the toys' and Roddy never stood a chance even if he was the only 'G1' TF to, well....
And then we get the Rebirth trilogy, where a whole season's worth of toys and story had to be squeezed in to 3 episodes, including an 'everything turns out OK' ending.

[Lord_Zed]

I find it funny that Ultra Magnus is a fairly incompetent leader by Prime standards in the animated movie, and yet when series three rolls around he's suddenly the voice of wisdom.

I think that they could wipe the floor with all the TF characters in Bayformers and nobody would really give a damn - There may actually be praise

Whatchoo mean? I'd miss BayPrime more than Rodimus. That face stealing, Decepticon executing son of a null ray is a way more ruthless and effective leader than mister everybody hates me Rodimus.

[GoktimusPrime]

Rodimus Prime could be quite ruthless in the G1 comics - right down to executing a defeated Decepticon. Shanghai'd!

(though arguably the whole of TFTM is his traditional 'heroes journey', replete with learning the value of listening to his elders)

I don't know about that... I still think it was the opening of the Cosmic MacGuffin that made him an instant hero. He didn't really travel there. And it appeared that his maturity was very much reliant on his possession of the MacGuffin, for without it he not only physically reverted into becoming Hot Rod, but psychologically too (i.e. he became less mature). This happened in both the cartoon and the comics too! Although by the end of the Great War Rodimus Prime is Hot Rod again - leader of the Autobots and prefers to be called Rodimus. I can't remember if he was still in possession of the MacGuffin, but I don't think he was. But he still possessed the wisdom and maturity of Rodimus Prime. So perhaps Rodimus finally grew up after a couple of centuries... or maybe prolonged contact with the MacGuffin slowly transformed him... yes Rodimus, it's your Matrix... your own... your precious!