Martial arts discussion thread

[KalEl]

So overall how would you rate your first lesson? I feel that Kalel will be the best person to talk to regarding your concerns. The only thing I can comment on is the C-Step. We do the "C step" or as you put it "in GKR we have to move the moving foot inward toward the stationary foot, but not touching it, then outward." It does take practice but it is a very practical step for taking down an opponent . the way the foot moves in the c-step if done correctly can get behind your opponents foot and used to trip/sweep their leg out.

Yes with enough practice it can be done very fast

Ah right, "C-Step," heh... still getting used to some new terminology and moves.

Overall it was pretty basic - as I expected. Although I was pleasantly surprised that Sensei let me learn the first Kata in its entirety... although it is a very basic form; only has one kind of punch, one kind of block and they say it only uses one stance, but in actuality it uses two, because they use a cross-legged stance as a transition when turning around. But I can see how it would be beneficial for people with little sports background or underdeveloped coordination. I've dropped KalEl a PM, so hopefully we'll be able to discuss this in more detail.

love to chat to you soon about it all much easier than typing.

[GoktimusPrime]

Did you get my PM, KalEl?

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Did some research^Googling into the first GKR kata -- apparently it's called "Taigyoku" - the one I've learnt is "Taigyoku Shodan*". It appears to be derived from the Taikyoku kata used in traditional Karate styles (e.g. Shotokan, Goju etc.) -- I suspect that Taigyoku may be a corruption of "Taikyoku", because "Taikyoku" is written as　太極** and is the same Kanji as "Tai Chi" (sometimes Anglocised as "Taiji" - in Japanese Tai Chi Chuan is called "Taikyokuken" (太極拳; "Great Extreme Fist")) -- although the similarity to Tai Chi appears to be only in name. I find this form to be more similar to Sport Taekwondo's "Taeguk" form (poomsae); also written in the same Kanji. By comparison, Taeguk is a simplified version of Taigyok/Taikyoku (I say this because TKD was derived from Shotokan Karate - so Taikyoku would have come first) - Taeguk lacks any of the turns (so they don't use the the cross-legged/twisted stance, only using the Forward Stance).

I also finally found some info on the lineage of GKR -- apparently Kancho Sullivan^Sullivan-Kancho*** developed GKR as a hybrid of Goju, Keishinkan and Shotokan.

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Semantic Notes:
*Shodan (初段) literally means "First Level", although Sensei translated it as "Level 1" (which would translate as "Ichi-dan" (一段) in Japanese). Japanese speaking Transformer fans often refer to G1 as 初代 (Shodai), meaning "First Generation."
**I suspect that "Taigyoku" is probably a corruption of "Taikyoku," because "Taigyoku" means "Great Jade" (太玉), and I'm not aware of any Karate form or style by that name (although there is a style of Aikido called "Taigyokuryu" ("Great Jade Style")). Taikyoku means "Great Extreme," as opposed to the Smallest Transformers which are called 極小変形 ("Kyokushou Henkei"), meaning "Smallest Transformation".
***My Sensei introduced herself as Sensei-"Jane" (not her real name) and Robert Sullivan as "Kancho Sullivan," e.g. during the beginning and end Keirei Sempai says "Kancho Sullivan rei." I think what's happened here is that they've imposed Germanic word-order onto a Japanese term. Whereas in Germanic (and many other European) languages we put the title before the name (e.g. Dr. Smith, Mademoiselle Dubois, Herr Schmidt etc.) in Japanese the title comes after the name. So it should be Sullivan-Kancho, not Kancho-Sullivan. For example, in the Japanese version of Transformers, Optimus Prime is often called "Convoy-Shireikan" (コンボイ司令官) - "Commander Convoy," but in Japanese word order is literally "Convoy Commander." Also, Japanese people very infrequently use given names - titles are usually attached to family names... which is also the same as European language conventions too. e.g. imagine if there were a school teacher called "John Smith" - for a student to refer to that teacher as "Mister John" would sound strange and arguably lacking in respect. Because "Sensei" is an honorific title, it ought to be preceded by a surname, not a given name. So if my Sensei's name is Jane Doe (not real name), we should be calling her "Doe-Sensei," not "Sensei-Jane." I just call her "Sensei."

____________________________________________

Videos
1. GKR Taigyoku Shodan Kata: sloppy footwork
2. Shotokan Taikyoku Shodan Kata: Nice looking stances/posture, and clean looking C-steps.
3. Taekwondo Taeguk Il Jang: sloppy posture (imagine stepping into a Front Stance like that against a grappler!).

[KalEl]

Did you get my PM, KalEl?

------------

Did some research^Googling into the first GKR kata -- apparently it's called "Taigyoku" - the one I've learnt is "Taigyoku Shodan*". It appears to be derived from the Taikyoku kata used in traditional Karate styles (e.g. Shotokan, Goju etc.) -- I suspect that Taigyoku may be a corruption of "Taikyoku", because "Taikyoku" is written as　太極** and is the same Kanji as "Tai Chi" (sometimes Anglocised as "Taiji" - in Japanese Tai Chi Chuan is called "Taikyokuken" (太極拳; "Great Extreme Fist")) -- although the similarity to Tai Chi appears to be only in name. I find this form to be more similar to Sport Taekwondo's "Taeguk" form (poomsae); also written in the same Kanji. By comparison, Taeguk is a simplified version of Taigyok/Taikyoku (I say this because TKD was derived from Shotokan Karate - so Taikyoku would have come first) - Taeguk lacks any of the turns (so they don't use the the cross-legged/twisted stance, only using the Forward Stance).

I also finally found some info on the lineage of GKR -- apparently Kancho Sullivan^Sullivan-Kancho*** developed GKR as a hybrid of Goju, Keishinkan and Shotokan.

-----------------------
Semantic Notes:
*Shodan (初段) literally means "First Level", although Sensei translated it as "Level 1" (which would translate as "Ichi-dan" (一段) in Japanese). Japanese speaking Transformer fans often refer to G1 as 初代 (Shodai), meaning "First Generation."
**I suspect that "Taigyoku" is probably a corruption of "Taikyoku," because "Taigyoku" means "Great Jade" (太玉), and I'm not aware of any Karate form or style by that name (although there is a style of Aikido called "Taigyokuryu" ("Great Jade Style")). Taikyoku means "Great Extreme," as opposed to the Smallest Transformers which are called 極小変形 ("Kyokushou Henkei"), meaning "Smallest Transformation".
***My Sensei introduced herself as Sensei-"Jane" (not her real name) and Robert Sullivan as "Kancho Sullivan," e.g. during the beginning and end Keirei Sempai says "Kancho Sullivan rei." I think what's happened here is that they've imposed Germanic word-order onto a Japanese term. Whereas in Germanic (and many other European) languages we put the title before the name (e.g. Dr. Smith, Mademoiselle Dubois, Herr Schmidt etc.) in Japanese the title comes after the name. So it should be Sullivan-Kancho, not Kancho-Sullivan. For example, in the Japanese version of Transformers, Optimus Prime is often called "Convoy-Shireikan" (コンボイ司令官) - "Commander Convoy," but in Japanese word order is literally "Convoy Commander." Also, Japanese people very infrequently use given names - titles are usually attached to family names... which is also the same as European language conventions too. e.g. imagine if there were a school teacher called "John Smith" - for a student to refer to that teacher as "Mister John" would sound strange and arguably lacking in respect. Because "Sensei" is an honorific title, it ought to be preceded by a surname, not a given name. So if my Sensei's name is Jane Doe (not real name), we should be calling her "Doe-Sensei," not "Sensei-Jane." I just call her "Sensei."

____________________________________________

Videos
1. GKR Taigyoku Shodan Kata: sloppy footwork
2. Shotokan Taikyoku Shodan Kata: Nice looking stances/posture, and clean looking C-steps.
3. Taekwondo Taeguk Il Jang: sloppy posture (imagine stepping into a Front Stance like that against a grappler!).

i'm glad you have done some research mate, yes i got your pm, i added you on skype.

[GoktimusPrime]

So I had a chat with a dude who's a retired Sensei who's taught traditional Okinawan Karate for 30 years and asked him about his thoughts on GKR. He said that it is a massively huge club and the people there are really nice and it's a great social opportunity to make friends. He said that their point-sparring/tournament techniques are good (I've heard others say this too) and - as I've often said before - excellent for teaching martial arts novices. He totally agreed with me that it's a good style for someone to start in who has absolutely zero martial arts experience and/or underdeveloped coordination skills.

He then said that most of the people who train in GKR see it just as a 'fun hobby,' i.e. they don't take it very seriously as a fighting form. To them it's just something they do for fun and fitness, perhaps to win comps for sport fighting, but not actual combat fighting isn't something they think about. In that regard, he believes that GKR isn't ideal as an actual combat art because they train for tournament fighting with non-contact etc. - he also spoke about how, in his experience/observation, many GKR practioners lack a lot of basic traditional martial arts skills and make common mistakes like standing on their stances and not in them (he said that whenever he gave a GKR Karateka the "push test" they'd topple over quite easily), and lack the ability to drive any power behind their strikes -- which isn't surprising considering that they teach you to hold your strikes back (because of the non-contact rule) and teach you to punch in front of targets at not through them.

But he also said that this problem isn't unique to GKR - it occurs in a lot of martial arts schools, even many schools of traditional martial arts. And I must say that I do wholeheartedly agree with him there.

[KalEl]

So I had a chat with a dude who's a retired Sensei who's taught traditional Okinawan Karate for 30 years and asked him about his thoughts on GKR. He said that it is a massively huge club and the people there are really nice and it's a great social opportunity to make friends. He said that their point-sparring/tournament techniques are good (I've heard others say this too) and - as I've often said before - excellent for teaching martial arts novices. He totally agreed with me that it's a good style for someone to start in who has absolutely zero martial arts experience and/or underdeveloped coordination skills.

He then said that most of the people who train in GKR see it just as a 'fun hobby,' i.e. they don't take it very seriously as a fighting form. To them it's just something they do for fun and fitness, perhaps to win comps for sport fighting, but not actual combat fighting isn't something they think about. In that regard, he believes that GKR isn't ideal as an actual combat art because they train for tournament fighting with non-contact etc. - he also spoke about how, in his experience/observation, many GKR practioners lack a lot of basic traditional martial arts skills and make common mistakes like standing on their stances and not in them (he said that whenever he gave a GKR Karateka the "push test" they'd topple over quite easily), and lack the ability to drive any power behind their strikes -- which isn't surprising considering that they teach you to hold your strikes back (because of the non-contact rule) and teach you to punch in front of targets at not through them.

But he also said that this problem isn't unique to GKR - it occurs in a lot of martial arts schools, even many schools of traditional martial arts. And I must say that I do wholeheartedly agree with him there.

a problem with such a large club can be inconsistency with teaching and technique, i disagree about the stopping in front theory as it only appears this way because one is punching the air. all techniques should be conducted the a full blooded manner (with adequate control and technical aptitude this is easily possible. (i myself could knock a larger opponent down very easily using standard gkr technique properly).
The term "individual results may vary" would be the best way to take any club, regardless of the training type.
The other thing is the opinion and thoughts of any one instructor may not be correct as a whole nor the correct thing, most grk instructors are student that have progress through a training program, black and white belts can vary from 6th kyu green belt to 1st kyu brown belt. this has itd merits and problems, as i say it can effect consistancy. But by no means am i putting these people down as we all strive to learn and progress.
As i say mate im happy to chat to you some time, i'll pm you when im on.

[GoktimusPrime]

i disagree about the stopping in front theory as it only appears this way because one is punching the air. all techniques should be conducted the a full blooded manner (with adequate control and technical aptitude this is easily possible. (i myself could knock a larger opponent down very easily using standard gkr technique properly).

Last Friday Sensei repeatedly told us that there is "hitting" in Karate, and that our punch techniques are intended to make the fist stop short of actually reaching its target. That's what Sensei told us.

I've always been taught to - as you said, go "full blooded." i.e. to plow my strikes through the target, and not simply at it. But each time I tried punching like this last Friday, Sensei corrected me and got me to retract my punches, negating any driving momentum and force behind it. It felt like trying to drive by putting one foot on the accelerator and the other on the brakes.

The other thing is the opinion and thoughts of any one instructor may not be correct as a whole nor the correct thing, most grk instructors are student that have progress through a training program, black and white belts can vary from 6th kyu green belt to 1st kyu brown belt. this has itd merits and problems, as i say it can effect consistancy.

Well yeah, opinions are just that - opinions. And I was just seeking the opinion of someone whom I consider has some level of authority on Karate being a retired Sensei... at least, a lot more authority than me! But at the end of the day, it's an individual's opinion, and I acknowledge that.

While I have some reservations about GKR, I'll reserve my final judgment about it for when I've completed the 3 month trial. If I'd already made up my mind about GKR in a negative way, then I would never have signed up for the 3 month trial, parted with $65 plus $15 for 2 lessons last Friday. And I put in 100% effort - going through all the basics plus learning the entire Taikyoku* Shodan Kata. Sensei kept teaching it to me bit by bit and asked me if I wanted to learn more, and I said yes. The more she taught me the better.

But by no means am i putting these people down as we all strive to learn and progress.

Different people learn martial arts for different reason. Not everybody wants to learn it for fighting, and I'm fine with that. But that's why I'm also clear in telling any instructor that I do want to learn for self defence - so that if that's not what their training is geared for, then they'll tell me.

I don't think there's anything wrong with learning a martial art as a fun hobby, sport or form of health/relaxation instead of a fighting form -- but I think in order not to waste people's time and money, it's better for schools to be open about what they or the majority of students are training for. I spoke about this extensively with the salesperson who came by last week, and she assured me that GKR is absolutely geared for realistic self defence combat fighting. If she hadn't vehemently given me that assurance, I wouldn't have bothered signing up. She asked me to give GKR 3 months to "prove itself" to me - after that if I'm still not convinced and I choose to walk away, then no dramas. But if it does manage to convince me, then I will have discovered a new fighting form that suits me. "What have you got to lose?" (apart from $185+ in sign up & lesson fees )

So come on GKR... I'm yours for the next 3 months. Bring it!

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Sorry, I can't bring myself to call it "Taigyoku"... just sounds wrong.

[KalEl]

Last Friday Sensei repeatedly told us that there is "hitting" in Karate, and that our punch techniques are intended to make the fist stop short of actually reaching its target. That's what Sensei told us.

I've always been taught to - as you said, go "full blooded." i.e. to plow my strikes through the target, and not simply at it. But each time I tried punching like this last Friday, Sensei corrected me and got me to retract my punches, negating any driving momentum and force behind it. It felt like trying to drive by putting one foot on the accelerator and the other on the brakes.
.

It's very possible to do full blooded techniques without a driving movement.
As you progress through you will become quite capable of this.

Although a 3 month trial will give you an insight, its not truly a fair amount of time to make a solid opinion, i would suggest once you achieve your yellow belt that you start visiting other classes in you area and especially those with black belt sensei. This which widen your scope and improve your training 10 fold

If you get an opportunity to train with Anthony Ryan, take it

[GoktimusPrime]

Although a 3 month trial will give you an insight, its not truly a fair amount of time to make a solid opinion, i would suggest once you achieve your yellow belt that you start visiting other classes in you area and especially those with black belt sensei. This which widen your scope and improve your training 10 fold

I can visit other GKR classes now - I don't have to stick with the current one. It's just that the current one is at the most convenient location/time for me. If I'm able to make it along to another class, then I'll try... also if I can afford it. I need to start saving my money for some expensive Japanese Transformers that I've preordered (though it usually works out to be lots cheaper than paying aftermarket prices)

If you get an opportunity to train with Anthony Ryan, take it

Cheers, I'll keep that in mind if the opportunity ever arises.

[KalEl]

I can visit other GKR classes now - I don't have to stick with the current one. It's just that the current one is at the most convenient location/time for me. :

i know you can, but i suggest it after yellow belt so than you build a consistent base through one instructor first.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, this is getting hard to properly discuss in text - will have to continue this over Skype.

Onto another topic... shoes. What shoes do you guys prefer wearing when you train? (unless you prefer training barefoot, in which case this discussion may be moot for you )

My Chen Taiji teacher always recommended tennis shoes because they're designed for the sudden stop and turn plyometric ("explosive ferocity") movement that's used in both tennis and martial arts. He also said that some martial arts shoes, like Kung Fu shoes actually aren't that ideal for martial arts. Rather the treads on their soles are designed more for linear shuffling forward and backward which beginners are often taught, but of course, in more advanced practice (drills, sparring etc.) you're gonna be doing much more than that! The shoes I currently use in GKR training are Feiyues (view of front sole); but it's a Kung Fu shoe which typically is designed for basic linear shuffling rather than plyometric footwork. :/ But I got them now, so I might as well wear them out before buying another pair. I actually bought these Feiyues expressly for the purpose of training with barefoot fighters or in barefoot schools that don't allow hard sole street shoes. They've never been worn outside of a MA school.

But in my regular Tai Chi training I use cheap sneakers - I usually buy cheap tennis/badminton/basketball shoes (e.g. Kmart) because I don't wanna buy good shoes that are gonna cop a lot of physical punishment. I have a pair of Nike basketball shoes that my wife bought for me, but they're far too nice to use for MA training! The shoes I currently use for personal training are running shoes (my wife bought them without understanding the types of soles and footwork required for martial arts). So I'm still using them, but check out the soles...


After several months of training the treads have been completely worn out! And it's not just from plyometric sudden stopping, turning, hopping etc., it's also just from practising stances and doing forms - simple things like moving between Riding Horse Stance (Kibadachi) and Bow Stance (Zenkutsudachi) etc. - in fact, it's always the ball of the foot and heel that wear out first. In some of my previous shoes I've actually worn holes through those areas! Btw, these aren't cheap Kmart shoes - they're actually proper Adidas... which is why they still haven't completely fallen apart on me like Kmart shoes would have by now (actually, I would've had to chuck them out long ago).

So these shoes are already past expiry... next time there's a shoe sale I might see if I can get myself a pair of decent tennis shoes. But of course, these would probably be considered hard sole street shoes and may not be accepted by barefoot schools. So I'm wondering what I should replace my Feiyues with. Is there a soft-soled shoe (e.g. martial arts shoes) that also have soles designed for plyometric footwork? What about Taekwondo shoes? Looking at some images, it seems that the soles of some TKD shoes like these have treads designed for sudden turning on the ball and heels of the foot, but the "smooth" appearance of the rest of the sole leads me to wonder how well it caters for the other aspect of plyometric footwork - sudden stopping. But then these TKD shoes look like they have a sole that does cater for more plyometric movement. I've never worn Taekwondo shoes before, so I'm only guessing from images that I'm looking at - for anyone who's ever worn TKD shoes in training, what are your thoughts?