Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

lol

I watched Sherlock Holmes on DVD last night for the first time. Interesting seeing some of the fight techniques, seems to be an ecclectic mix of Kung Fu (according to the special features Robert Downey Jr. is a practitioner of Wing Chun Kung Fu in real life), Jujutsu (esp. the scene where Holmes and Watson are double arm-barring that big French dude!). I haven't read Sherlock Holmes since I was a child, but that movie brought lots of memories back - and something I'd completely forgotten is that of course, Holmes was meant to be a very competent fighter. In the books, Holmes is meant to be a skilled practitioner of Baritsu, a fictional martial art that Doyle had created and is probably based on or inspired by the Bartitsu -- an English martial art that emerged from the late Victorian Era. Apparently the name Bartitsu may have been inspired by the word "Jujitsu" (which in itself is a corruption of the word "Jujutsu" <--which is how it's pronounced in Japanese), but the techniques themselves are from Western roots - namely from Western boxing, wrestling, fencing, savate and stilleto (knife/dagger) fighting. Bartitsu apparently also specialises in using the walking stick as a defensive weapon - which we see with Dr. Watson's fighting form.

Some images of Bartitsu stick or cane fighting:
http://www.fullcontactmartialarts.or...k-fighting.jpg
http://www.headmountedlasers.com/MU/.../twohanded.jpg
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/...mages/BW20.jpg
http://www.bartitsu.it/images/Stock-Kampf

And here's an image of unarmed Bartitsu fighting (boxing):
http://martialhistory.com/wp-content...10/08/BW02.jpg

Here's a pic of people practising modern Bartitsu today:
http://www.modernbartitsu.com/wp-con...64591_6474.jpg

Now I don't know how accurate the actors' forms in the film were to actual Bartitsu, because I've never seen real Bartitsu before (like many Western martial arts, it's very obscure and just doesn't enjoy the same level of popularity as East Asian martial arts); but it was interesting to see a portrayal of Holmes' Baritsu as a full and frenzied down and dirty martial art fighting form, whereas my memories of previous movie/televised incarnations don't show him being terribly physical at all.

There's a web site dedicated to Bartitsu here: http://www.bartitsu.org/
And I found a web site for a UK based modern Bartitsu school here: http://www.modernbartitsu.com/

I just think it's fascinating seeing a film showcasing a Western European martial art, which so seldomly gets any limelight in popular media. Some people think that only East Asian regions developed martial arts, whereas in reality every region where conflict existed would have developed a martial art.

I wish there were a Bartitsu school in Sydney... if I ever found one I'd totally go check it out! I'm personally not interested in taking it up, but I would really love to have a look at it and have a bit of a try. There are some schools in Australia that teach European martial arts, I've seen some people who train in broadsword and Spanish Rapier Brawling, but I've yet to come across a school that teaches Bartitsu.

If anyone happens to find a Bartitsu school, do share your experience(s) with us!

[GoktimusPrime]

Earlier on the news today I saw a story about a guy who was knocked down and repeatedly kicked by an attacker until someone else intervened and scared the attacker off -- police found a switchblade at the scene of the crime which was covered in the victim's blood. One guy made a comment on camera that he personally deplores anyone who's willing to kick another guy while he's lying on the ground.

Newsflash: tactically speaking, the _best_ time to kick someone is when they're on the ground! Is it scum? Sure... but it's bloody effective because it's really hard for your opponent to defend or counter... even with training, fighting a standing opponent while you're lying down is jolly difficult!

"It is a military axiom not to advance uphill against the enemy, nor to oppose him when he comes downhill." - Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

This story just serves as a reminder as to why training for self defence should never assume that an opponent shares any sense of "honour" or "decency" that you may hold. All too often I've come across practitioners who let their form down because of this (and in my personal observation, particularly amongst those who train for competition fights because comps enforce rules that disallow cheap moves - thus quite a lot of guys don't train to cover themselves against dirty tactics).

Sticking just with being kicked while on the ground, here's an example of what I mean. First, here's a breakfall technique that I've seen often taught to competition fighters (goes from right to left): Link
If you look at where the person ends up in the final positions (far left side), he's very exposed. With the right hand slapping down on the ground to his side, he's left that side wide open - the face (incl. nose, teeth), throat, chest, ribs, stomach etc. are unprotected and it doesn't take much for even an untrained attacker to just repeatedly stomp and kick into those open areas in a mad frenzy. While that diagram shows both feet together, in reality I find most people who do this technique tend to end up with their legs like this or this <---these guys are actually using their spare hand to cover the face, but the side of the head (i.e. ear/neck) is exposed (although he could try to cover that with the shoulder) - and lower flank and stomach and GROIN are all wide open!


Here's what I mean...

^Kicker has done a reverse breakfall using the technique as described above and Gamede is easily following up by kicking his face (just as well he has a helmet I suppose).

A technique that is favoured more amongst some traditionalists is to curl your body into a ball (almost like a foetal position). The hands are behind the ears with the elbows pinching toward each other, and of course the chin is tucked toward the chest so this forms a protective 'cage' around the head and neck area. The knees are tucked right in which then forms a second protective 'cage' around the torso and with knees together, the groin is protected. See the pic on the left below:

This position also allows the defender to use one or both of his legs to intercept potential kicks from the attacker, or possible even try to attack the attacker's supporting leg(s) to elicit him to fall over (thus neutralising the "high ground" advantage) - e.g. scissor leg takedown.

[Bartrim]

Training resumes tomorrow

A few of us got to go to the academy for a sparring session on Thursday. A young kid who is a national judo champion hyper-extended my elbow in an armbar Although sore I'm not holding any grudges as the hold slipped in that quick that everyone was taken off guard.

[GoktimusPrime]

A few of us got to go to the academy for a sparring session on Thursday. A young kid who is a national judo champion hyper-extended my elbow in an armbar Although sore I'm not holding any grudges as the hold slipped in that quick that everyone was taken off guard.

Just out of curiosity, have you done much counter-grappling stuff?

[Bartrim]

Just out of curiosity, have you done much counter-grappling stuff?

Yeah we do a lot of grappling. Our lessons usually revolve around either self defense or competitive fighting. Earlier I made someone tap with a kimura. I really enjoy the MMA classes.

[GoktimusPrime]

Goktimus, Is there anything you don't know a lot about.??

Dude seriously... my martial arts knowledge/prowess is EXTREMELY basic! I'm just a novice. You should see some of the other guys I've trained with... seriously put me to shame.

Yeah we do a lot of grappling. Our lessons usually revolve around either self defense or competitive fighting. Earlier I made someone tap with a kimura. I really enjoy the MMA classes.

Ah yeah, I find the BJJ stuff is pretty neat for one-on-one fighting... but I personally would find it restrictive against multiple opponents. I prefer standing grappling - i.e. grapples where you're still upright rather than going down to the ground with the opponent.

I know of a guy who was attacked my multiple attackers in a car park (racially motivated). His mate who was BJJ trained pinned one of the attackers down like this and started wailing into him, but then another attacker came up from behind him and whacked his head with a plank of wood. That position, like many BJJ positions, is great for 1 v. 1, but somewhat lacking when there's secondary attackers. The other dude used standing grapples, so he lasted longer - but he was also eventually taken down because he was outnumbered 10:1.

[Bartrim]

Yeah we only use BJJ for competitive purposes. When we study self defence we are taught direct attacks to pressure points incase you are attacked by multiple assailants to disable them as quickly as possible.

In tonight's black belt club my sensei and I sparred using MMA gloves instead the normal 10oz boxing gloves. These MMA gloves dont absorb anything. I took a shot to the ribs and he dropped me like 3rd period French. Great to toughen you up though.

By the way Gok, you have an open invite to our academy anytime you travel down the coast... Just be prepared for lots of kicks to the upper inner thigh

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah we only use BJJ for competitive purposes. When we study self defence we are taught direct attacks to pressure points incase you are attacked by multiple assailants to disable them as quickly as possible.

Fairy 'nuff.

In tonight's black belt club my sensei and I sparred using MMA gloves instead the normal 10oz boxing gloves. These MMA gloves dont absorb anything. I took a shot to the ribs and he dropped me like 3rd period French. Great to toughen you up though.

Mmm... body conditioning fresh. I personally don't see the purpose of using fully enclosed boxing gloves for self defence training since they fully cover up your fingers (so you can grab or use any open hand techniques or any hand techniques other than a closed fist really). MMA gloves are much more preferable.

By the way Gok, you have an open invite to our academy anytime you travel down the coast...

Thanks dude.

Just be prepared for lots of kicks to the upper inner thigh

If someone hits me there that's my own damn fault for leaving myself exposed.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yesterday I heard this kid bagging out Karate - saying stuff like, "Who'd use that in a fight?" and talking about how impractical it was for self defence etc. He complained about how he used to do Karate and how he never learnt anything useful for it. I tried to tell him that it would be useful if he practised and trained properly... then he admitted that he never did pay attention to the Sensei much anyway - and yet he still insisted that it was the school's fault.

Alright, there are quite a few martial arts teachers out there who don't teach properly and as a result their techniques don't work well in a fight (it's like having a car in top condition, but unless you have the skills/education to drive it properly then you're not going to be very effective at driving it - but that's not necessarily the car's fault). It's different from say people who train earnestly but still can't defend themselves adequately (appropriate to their level of training of course)... in that case, sure, their criticism may be valid. But to bag out a martial art or school when you couldn't be bothered paying attention to the teacher? Right.

Gotta love kids these days and how nothing's ever their responsibility.

[Bartrim]

Went to UFC on FX 2 in Sydney with my Sensei yesterday. What a great experience. The atmosphere was amazing and having my sensei next to me pointing out the finer points of the techniques used was a great learning experience. The only downer were the handful of idiots in the crowd who "knew" more then the professionals. I remember hearing one guy yell out "Punch him in the face!" Brilliant idea