Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

Why most adults drop out of martial arts classes

[Bartrim]

Why most adults drop out of martial arts classes

Interesting. We have found that most adults drop out of our classes (be it karate, Muay Thai or MMA) because they can't handle the pace or the pain. They think they are fit and strong but as soon as they get a sprained finger, a shot to a pressure point or even a hard kick through a pad they freak out. The usual response is "I didn't sign up for this" I always get puzzled when I hear that. You do realise this is a martial arts academy right? My belief is a good martial arts session should be like a game of footy. After it you should feel sore but not hurt.

[GoktimusPrime]

Interesting. We have found that most adults drop out of our classes (be it karate, Muay Thai or MMA) because they can't handle the pace or the pain. They think they are fit and strong but as soon as they get a sprained finger, a shot to a pressure point or even a hard kick through a pad they freak out. The usual response is "I didn't sign up for this" I always get puzzled when I hear that. You do realise this is a martial arts academy right? My belief is a good martial arts session should be like a game of footy. After it you should feel sore but not hurt.

Chi Energy Pawaaaaaaah!!

[Bartrim]

Chi Energy Pawaaaaaaah!!

LMAO

[GoktimusPrime]

Yet another counter-intuitive lesson. :/ I'm not sure if this Sensei knows what she's doing... because a lot of times she tries to teach us something, she has to stop and think -- struggling to remember what she wanted to show us. Then when she remembers, she has to stop and think again, struggling to remember how the move goes. Then she teaches us to do something, and sometimes realises that she's just taught us wrong and shows us a whole new way which is supposedly right, but she doesn't sound too sure. This doesn't happen once in a while, it happens almost every lesson.

And I'm talking about really _really_ basic stuff. Like which leg to step forward and which arm to punch with, which arm/leg to step back and block with... nothing at all complicated... and she's a black belt Sensei who's struggling to recall these techniques and teach them to us. Like... she'll pause and you can literally see her eyes rolling up while she thinks hard to remember. W h a t ? ? This is a clear sign that she herself hasn't even learnt these moves properly because if she had, then she should be able to execute them instinctively/reflexively ... she might struggle with how to articulate an explanation, but she should be able to do it without having to think about it.

It doesn't matter if it's martial arts or mathematics or languages or whatever the subject matter is. If you still need to consciously think to recall knowledge, then you haven't really learnt it. There's no deep knowledge, only superficial understanding... which is - surprise surprise - what you usually get with rote teaching/learning! That's why educators try to avoid using rote as much as possible in preference of associative learning! In the context of martial arts, associative learning would be learning through application and usage. Which we never really do. And I can actually feel that my GKR training is actually making my skills worse; especially in sparring. Because of the no contact thing, I just don't bother even trying to block most hits... because I'm not going to block something that isn't going to contact me - because if it's not going to contact me, then it's not a threat! This in turn is making me lower my guard... a lot. Basically, I'm actually picking up some bad habits from GKR training which, rather than enhancing my fighting skills, is actually making me worse.

Before sparring we did partner work. I got partnered up with the dude who's done another style of Karate before GKR... and he was equally confused by a lot of Sensei's instructions. Like Sensei wanted everyone to practice attacking and blocking from the same side over and over and over again, whereas my partner and I both come from a MA background where we've NEVER done this before... we're used to either having our partners alternate left and right sides, which is we were doing instinctively before we paused and realised that nobody else was doing it; or random side alternation.

There's nothing random in GKR. No surprises. Even in sparring everything's so rigidly controlled and sanitised. And if you do anything surprising - people freak out (like contact). My partners did NOT like to be grabbed -- despite the fact that we practice it in basics and partnerwork (mawashi uke). And all I was doing was grappling wrists and forearms... that's it. Again... I'd reeeaaally love to see a BJJ fighter come into our Dojo sometime and spar with these guys.

After my first spar, I was puffed out because I was trying to push myself. Sensei told me I was going too fast and too hard, and that's why I was puffed out, and told me to slow down and take it easier. Not really -- I was puffed out because I'm unfit! I'm not going to make up excuses for myself... nor am I going to necessarily "soften up" my training because of it. If anything, I need to push myself harder.

Another sparring partner kept moving around with two massive flaws (aside from not reaching in to contact me):
(1) He oftened leaned backward in his stances - something that Sensei had corrected him on when we did basics. I noticed he was doing this during sparring, so I charged at him and placed my left hand on his sternum while I pushed him backward. Not forceful enough to make him fall backwards, but enough for him to back pedal. I wanted to show him _why_ it was important to keep an upright posture. Then Sensei told me no contact -- then she told my partner not to lean backward. I told Sensei that I was trying to show him this... she said that he's still learning. Umm... yes... that's why I was trying to help him learn this by directly letting him feel why leaning backward made him off balance. All Sensei ever does is verbally tell you why you're doing something wrong and show you the correct method, but NEVER allowing you to experience a mistake. We learn from our mistakes. I'm hoping that after I pushed him backward, this guy is reflecting and thinking, "Oh right, I see why leaning back is bad now." But I doubt it. This guy's more concerned about maintaining rules rather than actually learning anything useful for self defence.
(2) Groin w i d e open! I kept telling him over and over and over again, "Your groin's open." "Cover your groin." -- and I'm trying my best not to hit him in the groin, but a couple of times I had some near misses and I kept reminding him that his groin was open. I honestly lost count of how many times I told him this... then the inevitable happened, and my foot made contact with his janglies. Thankfully it was only a light tap... but as every guy knows, even a light tap to the nads really hurts. I didn't mean to hit him there -- again, when sparring you're just operating on automatic. My partner did admit he wasn't wearing a groin guard when he should have been (Sensei did tell everyone to put one on), but was quick to remind me that it's "no contact." I did apologise for hurting him, but reminded him that he should be keeping his groin covered. But he wasn't hurt too badly - it was a light tap and he recovered after a few excruciating seconds and we continued sparring.

There's just way too many counter-intuitive rules in GKR sparring for my liking... and even one of the brown belt double-black tip students has often told me that he finds it incredibly frustrating too. He told me after class that if I were to spar him, he wouldn't mind if I tried to grab him, but advised that I don't do it with the other students, especially anyone below brown belt.

One funny thing was, when I put my partner in a solid arm grapple, he quickly said "no grabbing," and I said, "Okay, but how would you get out of that grab?" and he said, "There's no grabbing until brown belt," and I said, "Alright, but would you like to know how to get out of that grab?" -- he thought for a while and then hesitantly asked, "How?", so then I showed him and then he thanked me.

And here's the other thing about the students at this GKR Dojo... none of them are encouraged to think creatively, critically or analytically. They're just taught to follow what Sensei teaches -- parrot rote learning. There's no real problem solving. How can there be when everything's so rigidly structured with no randomness and a highly sanitised system of sparring? When you pull an unexpected move on these students, they don't cope with it. They'll either ignore it, or tell you not to do it.

At my Chen Tai Chi school, we welcomed new and surprising moves. We were always encouraged to look at them and think, "Now how would I counter that?" Sometimes when people come in and show us new stuff we do experiment and think of ways to counter these new moves. We didn't shirk away from the unexpected - we welcomed it.

So... what are people's thoughts on what I should do at this point? Should I:
+ Finish the 3 month trial period and continue to pay $10 per weekly lesson? That way I can at least say that I gave GKR the full set trial period. Though honestly, it's been over a month and nothing's impressed me. Other good schools I've seen have impressed me after a single lesson.
+ Speak to Sensei or the Regional Director or the Sales Rep about my concerns (especially considering that the Sales Rep assured me that GKR was useful for self defence). I'm a bit hesitant in speaking to my Friday night Sensei as she's not incredibly receptive to criticism and tends to treat adult students as if they're children.
+ Just quit now and save myself future angst and money from training in such a detrimental and ineffectual learning environment.
...any advice?

Oh, and one thing that Sensei often tells us: "Remember this is Karate, so no contact." That's right, she's telling people that Karate is non-contact. Not GKR, but Karate itself.

[Bartrim]

I don't know if talking to the regional manager, sales rep will achieve anything Gok. I think it's pretty clear GKR isn't doing what you had hoped or expected. I'd move onto another school if I were you.

On the competitive front the UFC PPV today featured all heavyweights. I don't if it was the cardio on the losers (Heavyweights cardio is often called into question in the UFC) or the striking power of the winners or a combination of both but the main card featured 5 fights lasting a total of 21minutes and 50 seconds. There were some great knockouts though.

[KalEl]

I don't know if talking to the regional manager, sales rep will achieve anything Gok. I think it's pretty clear GKR isn't doing what you had hoped or expected. I'd move onto another school if I were you.

Yeah i'd suggest you finish your three months and move on, hopefully you have a more 'empty cup' next experience you have.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah i'd suggest you finish your three months and move on, hopefully you have a more 'empty cup' next experience you have.

I'm willing to accept differences, but I have my standards and I'm not about to alter them to make something seem more appealing to me.

We're often discerning when we appraise or review toys, cartoons, movies and comic books. Similarly I'm discerning when appraising martial arts classes - especially considering that my primary motivation is self defence, as my safety or life may very well depend on the training. Dubious or false claims of teaching self defence can be very dangerous, as illustrated by Bartrim's example of that guy who's now claiming a disability fund.

[KalEl]

I'm willing to accept differences, but I have my standards and I'm not about to alter them to make something seem more appealing to me.

We're often discerning when we appraise or review toys, cartoons, movies and comic books. Similarly I'm discerning when appraising martial arts classes - especially considering that my primary motivation is self defence, as my safety or life may very well depend on the training. Dubious or false claims of teaching self defence can be very dangerous, as illustrated by Bartrim's example of that guy who's now claiming a disability fund.

i understand your stance, but i don't think they are making false claims to be teaching self defence.

[GoktimusPrime]

i understand your stance, but i don't think they are making false claims to be teaching self defence.

How do you know that? Have you seen my Dojo? From everything I've seen and experienced at my Dojos, it's counter intuitive to teaching self defence. In fact, it's counter intuitive to good teaching because it's based on rote rather than associative engaged and critical pedagogy.

I mean, I personally find Tai Chi to be a good and comprehensive fighting system. But I also know that not all schools teach it that way -- many don't. And quite frankly, unless I've seen a particular school or seen a demonstration from someone from that school, then it's difficult for me to make any judgment about it. I'm not saying that all GKR schools are making dubious claims about teaching self defence, but IMO the GKR schools in my local area have rather questionable practises when it comes to self def. And that's based on my own first hand experience with these schools. I'm not commenting about your GKR school or any other school that I haven't had contact with.