Martial arts discussion thread

[Bartrim]

They say that black belt is when the real training begins (everything before then is prelim). Do you guys actually incorporate Sanda techniques in your Karate training? (or does is it taught separately?). For anyone reading this who may not know, Sanda (aka Sanshou) is a modern Chinese martial sport. I must admit that Sanda has produced some very impressive fighters, particularly Cung Le... I'm quite impressed at his ability to connect hits and make combos flow from that. He's also quite good at just flooring his opponents in as few moves as possible. Which is precisely how one should aim to fight in a self defence scenario -- that "This ends NOW!" mentality (or as Karate calls it, "One hit one kill") I've personally never tried Sanda myself, so I can't really comment much more about it.

He basically said the same thing. Once you get your black belt the world of martial arts opens up to you and then the real training begins. Yes we do incorporate some Sanda techniques into our class. Mainly the sweeps, throws and kick catching work as our striking is mainly karate with a bit of our Muay Thai syllabus incorporated.
One thing that did catch me off guard in our dinner conversation was when Shihan Rob said he likes that I do karate (our school offers 3 seperate classes, karate, Muay Thai and MMA). He said he hates the fakers that take the MMA classes thinking they are going to be the next ultimate fighter. He said by me taking karate it shows I take my martial arts seriously and he respects that.

I am quite surprised that you know who Cung Le is Gok. I thought you weren't a fan of competitive martial arts.

[GoktimusPrime]

I am quite surprised that you know who Cung Le is Gok. I thought you weren't a fan of competitive martial arts.

You're right, and I won't deny that I'm not a fan of competition fighting, but even I must admit that Cung Le has amazing fight skills that puts some traditional martial artists to shame.

[KalEl]

You're right, and I won't deny that I'm not a fan of competition fighting, but even I must admit that Cung Le has amazing fight skills that puts some traditional martial artists to shame.

I enjoy competitive fighting and cung le

[Bartrim]

I enjoy competitive fighting and cung le

Same It's a shame he fights in a different weight class to Lyoto Machida... That would be an awesome fight.

[KalEl]

Same It's a shame he fights in a different weight class to Lyoto Machida... That would be an awesome fight.

I'll fight him

[GoktimusPrime]

We were going through kicks in tonight's class, one of the new guys asked how to block a roundhouse kick, and Sensei showed us a block that we (white belts) have never learnt before. One of the red belts recommended that we could use Gedan-Barai, which is probably what I would've said too considering the exceeding limited repertoire that we've been taught, but Sensei disagreed. IMO neither the block she showed or the Gedan are better or worse than the other... and really, kicks are better off being blocked with legs than hands/arms (which you would use only if the kick's come in too fast for you to get your leg up in time - so arm blocks against kicks are still useful IMO as a backup). I was talking to that red belt later and asked him if he's ever been kicked by someone with a massively powerful roundhouse kick (like say, a lot of Muay Thai fighters)... cos blocking those with your arms would cane! (even blocking them with your legs hurts, but I'd hate to imagine how painful they'd be to block with arms!)

GKR kicks are similar to Tai Chi kicks insofar that the knee is lifted first before doing the kick, which sacrifices power, but gains greater manoeuvreability and versatility. Other fighters launch their kicks straight from the ground without lifting the knee first. While they sacrifice manoeuvreability and versatility, they gain massive power! XO Although I must say that one significant difference w/ the GKR roundhouse kick is that the knee is lifted up to the side instead of in front like with a front, side and back kick (in Tai Chi we lift to the front, same as every other kick). I can see that this is to help give the roundhouse kick more power, but damn it _completely_ opens the groin!! If you wanna generate more power, I reckon you're better off just launching the kick straight off from the ground and forget about the knee lift. Lifting it off to the side when kicking straight ahead kinda defeats the versatility advantage since you're exposing yourself anyway.

Sensei then asked if there were any other questions, and I asked what the defence is against someone who grabs your kicking leg. Sensei's response said that it would never happen because grabbing is against the rules in GKR. So I said, but what about in self defence? Sensei then said that our kicks just need to be faster than the opponent's grab... but I think she quickly realised that it wasn't a very good answer (because the obvious next question would've been "But what if they do grab you?!") - which was on everyone's face. So she paused and thought for a while, then asked one of the senior students to grab her leg and she tried to get out of it... but couldn't. So she told us that there you can't get out if someone grabs your kicking leg. Again... good luck fighting a grappler, guys. Heck, even people who do Wrestling (like the kind they do at the Olympics) will grab your legs! I once sparred against a wrestler who dived at my ankles and grabbed both of them and quickly lifted them up over my head before jumping on me -- I had to go into breakfall and use ground-fighting techniques against him because I'd completely lost my footing.

Anyway, I politely asked Sensei if I could show them something, and I asked the senior student to grab my leg, and just showed them a very simple technique where you just shift your weight forward into the leg that's being held (i.e. so that the person holding your leg ends up bearing your entire body weight), and of course with elbows bearing forward as you do. I told Sensei that I wanted to know what GKR's counter to a leg grab was, which was the initial purpose of my question - and she understood that and said that she'll get back to me next week with an answer.

Anyway, next week's the last week of my trial period. Unless something amazing happens then that impresses me and convinces me to continue with GKR in my area, I'm likely to look elsewhere for a more effectual place to learn self defence. There's a BJJ school not far from me that I might have a look at.

[KalEl]

We were going through kicks in tonight's class, one of the new guys asked how to block a roundhouse kick, and Sensei showed us a block that we (white belts) have never learnt before. One of the red belts recommended that we could use Gedan-Barai, which is probably what I would've said too considering the exceeding limited repertoire that we've been taught, but Sensei disagreed. IMO neither the block she showed or the Gedan are better or worse than the other... and really, kicks are better off being blocked with legs than hands/arms (which you would use only if the kick's come in too fast for you to get your leg up in time - so arm blocks against kicks are still useful IMO as a backup). I was talking to that red belt later and asked him if he's ever been kicked by someone with a massively powerful roundhouse kick (like say, a lot of Muay Thai fighters)... cos blocking those with your arms would cane! (even blocking them with your legs hurts, but I'd hate to imagine how painful they'd be to block with arms!)

GKR kicks are similar to Tai Chi kicks insofar that the knee is lifted first before doing the kick, which sacrifices power, but gains greater manoeuvreability and versatility. Other fighters launch their kicks straight from the ground without lifting the knee first. While they sacrifice manoeuvreability and versatility, they gain massive power! XO Although I must say that one significant difference w/ the GKR roundhouse kick is that the knee is lifted up to the side instead of in front like with a front, side and back kick (in Tai Chi we lift to the front, same as every other kick). I can see that this is to help give the roundhouse kick more power, but damn it _completely_ opens the groin!! If you wanna generate more power, I reckon you're better off just launching the kick straight off from the ground and forget about the knee lift. Lifting it off to the side when kicking straight ahead kinda defeats the versatility advantage since you're exposing yourself anyway.

That is very odd as to an adult a Gedan-Barai should be taught on you very first day as it is fundamental. I disagree with using the legs to block any more than to 'check a kick. The sweeping blocks (gedan) and exceptionally good for blocking direct straight-line kicks such as a front kick as it required little power and easy control to deflect a kick. round kicks are a bit different as the target area can vary from calf to head to saying one block it better than the other is void.
Using hands9arms) as a back up block for kicks is Like icing a cake before you cook it, karate and kick-boxing a two different beast and should be viewed so. Blocking with the arm is much more efficient than the leg as its faster and uses less energy, this being that the correct block is used for the correct circumstance using the correct technique. Plus how can you block a head kick with your leg?

As for the power argument. It's the same as blocking, regardless of preparation position the technique must be correct or it doesn't matter if you kick from ground up or knee first. For example a club kick from muay thai is from the ground, where a round kick in karate is from the knee. That being said in gkr you get taught the side (groin exposing) prep to create muscle memory for correct hip activation during the kick, but in application the kick is almost a hybrid of knee and ground preps, it almost comes up on an angle. Think of the knee like a baseball pitchers arm, it determines the direction. Even though the Roundkick with said preparation seems weak its not, ONLY if correct hip and core activation is used.

[GoktimusPrime]

That is very odd as to an adult a Gedan-Barai should be taught on you very first day as it is fundamental.

It was. So I was surprised that it wasn't taught as an application to counter a kick - rather we were shown a block that we'd never been taught before. That's rather counter-intuitive from a teaching-learning POV.

I disagree with using the legs to block any more than to 'check a kick. The sweeping blocks (gedan) and exceptionally good for blocking direct straight-line kicks such as a front kick as it required little power and easy control to deflect a kick. round kicks are a bit different as the target area can vary from calf to head to saying one block it better than the other is void.
Using hands9arms) as a back up block for kicks is Like icing a cake before you cook it,

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. At the end of the day, the best block is the block that works for you.

karate and kick-boxing a two different beast and should be viewed so.

Sure, but remember that in a fight you're gonna have no idea what kind of fighting technique your opponent has been trained in. They could use a knee-lift first kick, or a straight-from-ground kick... you won't know until the kick's already launched. Thus it's useful to be prepared for all kinds of kicks. If your method of blocking is effectual against all kinds of kicks, then thumbs up to you.

Blocking with the arm is much more efficient than the leg as its faster and uses less energy, this being that the correct block is used for the correct circumstance using the correct technique.

I agree, but leg blocks can work well if you can anticipate the kick early enough to get your leg up. If not, then yes, arm blocks would be the way to go - hence why I prefer using them as back-ups when the kicks are too fast for me to get my leg up to block. And I find that knee-lift kicks are harder to predict because you see the knee come up, but it could then morph into a front kick or roundhouse or side kick etc., which gives you less time to pre-empt, so more often I'm using arm blocks against knee-up kicks. When I've sparred with people who do off-ground kicks, I find them easier to predict because you just see the kick coming from ages away, and thus I'm more likely to have enough time to get my knee up and block it with my leg. Another advantage of leg blocks is that straight after the block you can step right through the opponent's centre of mass, which can be a good lead in for a grapple or throw or just generally getting them off balance. Simply blocking without closing in gives them the opportunity to kick you a second time.

Plus how can you block a head kick with your leg?

That's true. I'd block it with an arm. Of course, in traditional martial arts we never kick the head because that just opens the groin (if I wanna hit the head, I'll punch/elbow/headbutt it!). If someone were to do a head kick at me, if the kick was too fast, then I'd block it like a roundhouse punch or "cage" myself with my arm. If I'm able to react fast enough, then I'd get under that leg and attack the groin. Or I can do both (i.e. block/grab the leg, then pull them in to grab the janglies).

That being said in gkr you get taught the side (groin exposing) prep to create muscle memory for correct hip activation during the kick, but in application the kick is almost a hybrid of knee and ground preps, it almost comes up on an angle. Think of the knee like a baseball pitchers arm, it determines the direction. Even though the Roundkick with said preparation seems weak its not, ONLY if correct hip and core activation is used.

The problem with this technique though is that it gets students into a habit of lifting their knee up to the side and exposing their groin before delivering a round kick. If, as you say, the actual application is different from this, then why not simply teach the kick closer to how it is applied in the first place?

Also, allow me to clarify - when I said that knee-lift kicks sacrifice power, I didn't mean to say that they have no power or that they're weak. Knee-lift kicks, when done correctly, ARE very powerful indeed! "Sacrificing power" probably wasn't the right choice of words -- it's possibly more accurate to say that off-ground kicks generate power through the use of sheer force (due to the wider swings), whereas knee-up kicks rely more on rotational energy/torsion to build power. Off-ground kicks are easier to do because you just swing your leg up like a club - knee-up kicks are more technical, but you're right in that they can generate just as much energy (just in a different manner) -- and knee-up kicks have the added advantage of greater manoeuvrability and versatility.

On a completely different matter, Sensei calls the Sanchindachi the "hourglass stance," but for some reason one of the senior students didn't like this and kept correcting her and insisting that it's called "pigeon toe stance" and that the correct translation is pigeon toe stance not hourglass stance. Actually, neither of them are correct -- Sanchindachi translates as "Three Battles stance" (Sanchin is derived from the Chinese word "Sam Chiem"(三戦)). Quite frankly, I don't care if someone wants to call it the pigeon toe stance or the hour glass stance or the "I really need to pee!" stance. Just as long as everyone in the class knows what the teacher means and does it correctly.

Later when I was training with that senior student who was going through stances with us, and again tried to tell us that the 'correct pronunciation' was "pigeon toed" stance, I corrected him and told him that it actually means "three battles stance." He then said, "Oh yeah, that's right, a friend of mine once told me that," then proceeded to keep calling it pigeon toed stance for the rest of the exercise. Again, I don't have a problem with this... but I just thought it was kinda odd that he finds it okay to give this stance an arbitrary name that's not a direct translation, but Sensei can't?? Righteo then.

[KalEl]

I'm returning to Judo soon

[Bartrim]

I'm returning to Judo soon

Awesome

I hope Anderson Silva whoops Chael Sonnen this arvo