Martial arts discussion thread

[Sinnertwin]

I've been told that it's the basic strikes, blocks and stances/movements. No kata. I might ask another instructor if he can do a trial grading with me before the date.

Sounds like you've aleady got it in the bag.

[GoktimusPrime]

Sounds like you've aleady got it in the bag.

I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch. The instructor who does the gradings is a notoriously hard marker, and while the stuff I'm learning is incredibly basic, some of it is quite different from what I'm used to and Sensei's like uber strict on everything being exactly the way he wants it to look like (form over function ).

Some things I'm still getting used to include:
+ The Sanchin ("Three Battles") stance; we don't have this stance in Tai Chi or even most other forms of Kung Fu (especially Northern Kung Fu). This stance originates from Southern Fujian Kung Fu (which is where Karate is descendant from) and is principally used in Fujian styles; none of which I'm terribly familiar with! I've been finding this stance the most difficult to master -- but last week I was talking this Karateka, black belt 3rd dan... I showed him my Sanchin stance and he told me it was 'perfect.' Last Saturday's class was the first time I didn't get corrected on my Sanchin stance!
+ Front kick (maegeri) -- as strange as it sounds, I'm having some issues with this, and I think it comes down to the fact that the Karate front kick has some subtle differences to the Tai Chi/Kung Fu front kick, but also we've never formally done any bag work* in class. In Karate the front kick turns off the ball of the foot of the supporting leg and impacts with the ball of the foot of the kicking leg; in Tai Chi/Kung Fu it's the heels (in Tai Chi the front kick is also called the "heel stomping kick"). Both methods of kicking have their advantages, but it'd be easier for me to learn the Karate version if I were able to actually kick something!
+ Fist's nest (i.e. where the non-attacking fist rests on the body). In Nothern Kung Fu/Tai Chi the fist's nest is typically held at the hips, whereas in Southern Kung Fu and Karate it's typically held at the chest level. So it's something new I gotta get used to, but honestly I don't put all that much thought into it because fist's nest is something that's more important to raw beginners. You don't use it in a real fight, but it's purpose is as a visual aide for beginning students to clearly see how their waists are positioned. So it's a useful technique for novice students, but once you move beyond that noob stage it becomes rather superfluous... because beyond novice level, you're taught to use both hands at the same time, which is what I'm used to doing. It seems like such a minor point, but it's gonna be something that Sensei's gonna nitpick on, so I gotta make sure I'm doing it right.

...and that's what I prefer about Thursday lessons which is taught by a Sempai over the Saturday lessons taught by Sensei. Sempai might not be as highly qualified as Sensei, but I prefer him as a teacher because for me he can see that a lot of these basics are quite simple for me, and he's willing to show me more advanced techniques -- he lets me try more advanced katas and even lets me spar (which ungraded students aren't meant to do). He didn't do all this in the first lesson, but after getting to know me he can tell that I would benefit more from lessons if he shows me and lets me try more advanced techniques.

My Chen Tai Chi teacher wouldn't bore a new student with prior martial arts experience by teaching him from the very beginning. He would at first, just to gauge when their level is like, but once he got to know them, he would just let them skip past the basics -- sometimes skip right past certain forms and up to whatever level best suited the student. He saw no point in teaching someone how to do stances all over again, even if some of our stances and basics differed from what that student had done, he just let the student learn the new way as he went along, and if a student needed attention with a particular basic technique, then he'd focus on that. For example, do I really need to continually practice Zenkutsudachi (forward stance)? There's a very similar stance in Tai Chi called the Bow Stance. The Neko-ashi dachi (Cat Stance) is quite similar to Tai Chi's Empty Stance. As I said, the only stance that I've experienced difficulty with was the Sanchin stance, simply because we don't use it in Tai Chi (whereas a person with experience in say Fujian Kung Fu or another style of Karate would find it quite easy).

The Sensei's class is primarily teacher-centred. The only student attention you get is if you stuff something up. The Sempai's class is far more student-centred, and student-centred learning is more effective than teacher-centred learning. Granted the Sensei's classes are much larger - but that's another reason why I like Sempai's classes... fewer students, greater individual attention from the teacher.

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*I did get to kick a shield once in one of Sempai's lessons (it was before the class had formally started) - he was holding the shield and asked us to do different kinds of kicks. It was funny... the graded students went first, and just gently tapped the shield with their kicks. Then it was my turn and the hall just echoed with "WHACK! WHACK! WHACK!" and I could see Sempai having to work to absorb the impact of my kicks. None of the other students were able to issue any power in their kicks. Little wonder if they hardly ever (never?) do bag/padwork.

[GoktimusPrime]

Saw this tragic story about a 9 year old boy who was attacked in the groin by a bully and has consequently lost one of his testicles. If you pause the video at 1:23 there's a copy of the medical report in English. Basically after being attacked, the victim was admitted to hospital and cleared to go home, but later at home he noticed that one of his testicles was swollen and turned black... after going back to hospital, the doctor declared that the tissue inside had already died and they had to surgically remove it. Small consolation is that the remaining testicle is fine and he ought to be able to reproduce with that in the future, but the child continues to suffer psychological damage and nightmares which will may very well take much longer to heal than his physical injuries. The technique that the bully used where he grabbed the boy's testicle and twisted it is something that is taught in several martial arts; mimicking a martial arts technique known as "Monkey steals the Peach" (from the story of Saiyuuki (Monkey Magic) where Son Gokuu (Monkey) steals the Peach of Immortality from the Heavenly Garden). I think it's a solemn reminder as to just how dangerous groin attacks can be - even if you walk away thinking that you're alright. As with a lot of internal damage, symptoms may crop up long after the initial strike.

Disclaimer: I'm in NO way validating/condoning the bully's attack in this story, nor am I attempting to place the victim under any scrutiny here. IMO the attack was a completely abhorrent and deplorable act, and I hope that the attacker will be suitably dealt with. The victim is only 9 years old and was completely set up by a person he considered his friend (and thus implicitly trusted). I'm only referring to this story to demonstrate what the consequences of a groin attack can be.



>>>Now comes my typical rant about groin-defence; long time readers of this thread may choose to tune out now<<<



As most of you know, I've witnessed far too many martial arts practitioners who just don't adequately protect the groin, especially people who train for competition fights. And I've encountered a lot of people who steadfastly believe that they don't need to defend their groins - that it's a "dog" move, that they would never do it, and that anyone who does it is scum. Sure, they're scum... but they're scum who may very well cause permanent damage to your doo-dads! I can totally understand people who have personal objections to using groin attacks... okay, that's fine. But what I don't understand is people who object to learning how to defend themselves from a groin attack! I personally don't carry a knife around to attack people with, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't learn how to defend myself against a knife attack!

I still cannot believe the number of martial artists I've come across who, when I try to discuss groin defence with them, actually get really angry. I've had people scream at me, verbally abuse me and just walk away refusing to train with me if I so much as suggest incorporating groin attacks/defence. It's as if it's some kind of massive taboo for them to even think about it. I get that it's incredibly unpleasant... but what part of being assaulted is pleasant anyway? Surely self defence is about protecting ourselves from horrible nasty people who would consider doing horrible nasty things to us. Some people seem to have a mindset that they only need to defend themselves from a noble attacker... but noble people don't attack others!

[GoktimusPrime]

Woman uses Brazilian Juujutsu triangle choke to defend herself from rapist

[Bartrim]

Woman uses Brazilian Juujutsu triangle choke to defend herself from rapist

Ha! Awesome.

On the whole groin attack thing. At my last grading we had to partner and go through self defence. We have six basic attacks that we drill. Because it was an advanced grading (brown belts and up) they made us come up with something on our own instead of doing the normal drill. The first attack is basically a standard haymaker. When it was my turn to demonstrate, my partner went to throw the punch and I simulated (ie: didn't actually make contact) a snap kick to the groin. Our Kyoshi and founder of our schools stopped us and told everyone that it was the best self defence technique because it was the most simple and effective.

[GoktimusPrime]

Sparred last night with the second highest ranking student in the class (we don't pick our partners - they get assigned to us). Good range fighting. Excellent groin defence and solid guard overall. He made it more challenging for me to close the distance - I coudn't just walk into his range like I did with previous opponents, but I found it was pretty easy to spring/hop into range to quickly close the gap. Once I got in close, he would flounder and whenever I commenced a takedown, my opponent was utterly incapable to countering (or even breakfalling). I was quite slow/gentle with my takedowns, I would move in and engage him with furious speed, but as soon as I felt that he'd lost his balance and had started falling, I slowed down to "Tai Chi practice" speed and let him gently fall down - so he was never in any danger of being injured (since we don't ever use mats and he's just falling on solid floor). Whenever he fell down he'd just lie on his back splayed out like he's having a nap, so I'd gently put my knee on his chest and throw punches toward his head (stopping just a few cm short of contact) before helping him get up. My opponent seemed quite competent at defending himself from someone who's going to box at him from a distance, but not against an up close attack (and seemed utterly defenceless against grappling).

I only go to Karate once a week, but the instructor encouraged me to come along to this Sat's class as apparently there's some tournament thing happening with people from around Australia and Japan coming. I was just gonna pop in for a minute to purchase my Gi, but I'm considering staying for the lesson if it's gonna be something special.

[sifun]

Saw this tragic story about a 9 year old boy who was attacked in the groin by a bully and has consequently lost one of his testicles.

Did he get justice?

[sifun]

how come you don't spar with strikes to the head?

[GoktimusPrime]

how come you don't spar with strikes to the head?

Against the rules of the Dojo (and as a result some of the students have predictably incredibly poor head defence). My guess is that they don't want to risk head injuries as that can cause traumatic brain injury/concussion etc. All martial arts schools/teachers have a legal duty of care over their students. But I honestly think it's an unnecessary precaution (that's also counter-intuitive to self defence training). At sparring we're already told to basically make light contact, because nobody wears any protective gear (other than hand guards that pad the knuckles, that's it). So basically all hits land with the force of someone tipping you in the schoolyard. And that's fine... so I really don't see the need of being extra cautious in totally disallowing head strikes. Groin strikes are allowed, and as a result everyone at this school has excellent groin defence! If they allowed head strikes I reckon students would quickly learn to improve defending their heads too! (funny that ).

Quite frankly, as much as I try not to strike the head, I do get a few head shots in (with minimal opposition). I'm not intentionally defying the rules, but the fact of the matter is that when you're sparring/fighting you're mostly moving automatically and reflexively. If I see an opening, I'm just going to take it. If my opponent keeps leaving a part of their body exposed - groin, head, whatever - I'm going to attack it. I consciously try not to, which means I'm able to suppress most of my head strikes, but every now and then a hit is going to get in. Usually when my opponent attacks me harder and faster and I have to react more quickly - there's no time to think and I just attack whatever's open. Thankfully for my opponent's I'm quite used to 'soft contact' sparring, so I'm not hitting with any real force. The fact that we all wear padded gloves makes it even softer.

I suppose the good thing is that none of my opponents have ever cried foul when I have hit them in the head... unlike some other sparring partners I've had in the past who've been less the courteous when I've hit them in the groin. I guess it's because even a 'gentle' hit to the groin can still hurt a lot! As Eddie Murphy once said - you can just graze a man in the nads and it'd still take him down. (link not suitable for kids)

[GoktimusPrime]

So I went to training yesterday - first time I decided to do a second class in the same week. Finally bought a Gi (goodbye $45 ). It was a special tournament class, but as an ungraded student I was only allowed to do the Kata competition, where they pair you with another student and you both do kata and they declare one person a winner. I lost.

This may sound like a case of sour grapes, but I'm really not fond of making people 'compete' against each other with Kata. The reason for this is because I just don't see the educational benefit of it. As you all know I've never been a fan of competition martial arts in general -- in traditional martial arts the only person you should be competing with is yourself, striving for self improvement and achieving your personal best. But I suppose some might argue that making a competition out of it might introduce an element of 'fun' and some students might thrive on the competition element (especially boys). So I can see how it might suit that personality type -- that's fine. But the thing that bothers me about it is that, for the 'losing' student, there's NO constructive feedback as to why they lost!

When it comes to learning things, there's nothing wrong with making mistakes - the important thing is that we _learn_ from our mistakes. If my kata is wrong, then tell me what I did wrong! There's no explicit correction of mistakes. Also, Sensei claims that the Kihon Kata only has one stance - Zenkutsudachi... but honestly it has more. Namely the transitional stances... I don't know what they're called (as nobody seems to even view them as stances or positions in their own right), but one is like a highly contracted Nekoashidachi (essentially a Tiger Riding Stance), and the other is a contracted Jade Ring Stance (only that the rear knee is aligned with the front leg's knee/calf instead of stepping across it; I don't know the name for this variation of the Jade Ring Stance) -- both of these stances are important in turning during the form... yet there's little focus on how to do it and also which direction to turn during the form. The teaching of the kata seems to focused on just the 'end result' of stepping in Zenkutsudachi, but glazing over how to actually get there in the first place.

Teaching isn't just about "Here's the right way to do it," but importantly, "Here's how it's done correctly." I don't mind being told that I've made a mistake... but I'd also like to be properly corrected and instructed on how to improve on my mistake. Isn't that what we're paying money to instructors for? If they want me to just figure it out on my own... I can do that at home and save myself the money.