Martial arts discussion thread

[Bartrim]

I only know this from studying to become an accreditated instructor but there are severe legal raminifications if anyone suffers a head injury in a Martial Arts School. I disagree with it as I prefer head shots and if I am alone with my Sensei he allows me to put on headgear and we spar with head shots. The same goes for groin shots. The protective equipment worn does not 100% prevent injury so head and groin shots are not allowed. It is that bad now that when knife defence is practiced a dojo is not covered legally if the students to not wear eye protection.

Have you asked for feedback Gok? From what I've seen in big tournaments there usually isn't time on the spot to explain to the loser what went wrong but if you asked an instructor/judge later they will be more then happy to explain.

I think you have to let go of your love of traditional martial arts too. The rise in popularity in MMA has caused a rather quick evolution in martial arts and society has changed so much that there is no real practical need for traditional martial arts. This again goes back to what I've learnt doing my accreditation. Using traditional martial arts in self defence can often leave you on the wrong side of the law. We did numourous case studies where the mugger took the victim to court because of the harm done to them because the victim was a martial artist. There is a fine line between self defence and assault. That line becomes even finer when you are a practicing martial artist and can get quite blurred easily for a judge. Tha is why most schools that teach self defence will tell you physical defence is the last resort! Traditonal Martial Arts are great but they are just not practical in todays world and I seriously think you need to understand that.

[GoktimusPrime]

I only know this from studying to become an accreditated instructor but there are severe legal raminifications if anyone suffers a head injury in a Martial Arts School. I disagree with it as I prefer head shots and if I am alone with my Sensei he allows me to put on headgear and we spar with head shots. The same goes for groin shots. The protective equipment worn does not 100% prevent injury so head and groin shots are not allowed. It is that bad now that when knife defence is practiced a dojo is not covered legally if the students to not wear eye protection.

Yeah but there are still ways around it like getting the attacker to apply "light contact" attacks, or just pulling their strikes a few cm from contact (do the latter with inexperienced students, and allow more experienced students to do the former). Or just mix up junior and senior students together more often in training -- the more experience senior students will know how to safely execute a simulated head or groin strike without causing serious injury, and they also know how to defend themselves from incoming strikes from the inexperienced junior student. The risk I think comes more from when you put two inexperienced students together, neither possessing the skill/experience to execute a head or groin shot in practice safely. Or heck, just give the attacker a pair of feather dusters and ask them to use those to attack you. You can still feel the feather dusters touching you, but they're too soft to injure you.

Have you asked for feedback Gok? From what I've seen in big tournaments there usually isn't time on the spot to explain to the loser what went wrong but if you asked an instructor/judge later they will be more then happy to explain.

There were a lot of instructors at the Dojo that day, but they were all busy with the tournaments (which only graded students could participate in) and the ungraded students were made to do basics. There were 3-4 instructors who watched us when we did the Kata competition to judge, surely at least one of them could've come along to the sideline and had a quiet chat with the 'losing' student to give them constructive feedback. The instructor in charge is someone I've trained with before, and he hardly ever gives constructive feedback in his classes. Another instructor that I sometimes train with whom I find far more constructive was also there, so I'll ask him if he can give me any feedback when I see him next (if he remembers my performance ).

I think you have to let go of your love of traditional martial arts too. The rise in popularity in MMA has caused a rather quick evolution in martial arts and society has changed so much that there is no real practical need for traditional martial arts.

I see traditional martial arts as still being useful for civilian self defence in today's society. You're right in that it's no longer useful for its original purpose (combat), and it's definitely not suited for modern competition fighting either.

This again goes back to what I've learnt doing my accreditation. Using traditional martial arts in self defence can often leave you on the wrong side of the law. We did numourous case studies where the mugger took the victim to court because of the harm done to them because the victim was a martial artist. There is a fine line between self defence and assault. That line becomes even finer when you are a practicing martial artist and can get quite blurred easily for a judge. Tha is why most schools that teach self defence will tell you physical defence is the last resort! Traditonal Martial Arts are great but they are just not practical in todays world and I seriously think you need to understand that.

I've never come across any martial arts school that didn't teach physical defence as a last resort; traditional, modern or otherwise.

In cases where people have abused their martial arts training in self defence, I wouldn't say that the problem lies in Traditional martial arts, but rather in people who didn't know how to use the techniques appropriately. And that may very well come down to the teaching/learning aspect; and when you're teaching martial arts for self defence one ought to be mindful to remind students that the law allows for the reasonable use of force in self defence. But I think any kind of martial arts training can be abused in self defence -- traditional or otherwise.

As you know one of my pet peeves about martial arts schools (including traditional ones) are those who fail to be more selective in who they teach. I'm a firm believer that people with thuggish tendencies should not be trained in any kind of martial arts or fighting sport; that martial arts teachers/schools have a moral responsibility to either exclude these students, or modify their teaching of that student (so that the student is unable to use any techiques learnt from the school to harm someone else); e.g. exclusively teach passive/defensive techniques.

IMO a good martial arts instructor aims to teach his/her students to defend themselves from violent thugs but without becoming violent thugs themselves. But in order to become proficient at that, you need to understand how violent thugs attack ("Know the enemy as you know yourself and you shall not fear the results of a hundred battles" - Sun Tzu, The Art of War). One thing I see with some people who are "too defensive" in their training (i.e. never learn how to strike) is that when they train/spar with each other, they're defending themselves from incredibly weak and unrealistic attacks. Just look at this Aikido demonstration -- the attacks are far too "nice." There is that element of what 5FDP calls 'over compliance' from the attacker which makes it unrealistically too easy for the defender to counter. And I don't just mean to pick on Aikido, a lot of martial arts schools do this, including Tai Chi (many Tai Chi practitioners start with the attacker and defender already in contact, so there's no real learning of how to bridge that initial gap).

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Also... got any tips on how to tie up an Obi? Any good web sites with good illustrations or decent videos you can recommend?

[Raptormesh]

Managed to grade 5th kyu in Iai last week. Not happy that I have to cut down my training this semester to once a week with my classes clashing and therefore not training as hard as I could have. Doing strikes at home isn't cutting it. On the bright side I must be doing right as my hands are developing tons of calluses.

[GoktimusPrime]

Managed to grade 5th kyu in Iai last week. Not happy that I have to cut down my training this semester to once a week with my classes clashing and therefore not training as hard as I could have. Doing strikes at home isn't cutting it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Iai is predominantly Kata training, isn't it? (i.e. you don't do forms of sparring/fighting with bokken/bokuto or shinai). The beauty of learning Kata is that you can continue practising them at any time. Although admittedly it's really not as effective as in a class where people can correct or refine your techniques... and it's also just more fun when practising with someone else. Iai also has two-person Kata, right? That would be jolly hard to do on your own. At least you're still training once a week - that's not as bad as completely quitting.

[Raptormesh]

Heh, that wasn't entirely intentional...obviously :P

Yup it's mostly Kata based. However our sensei do get us to practice Kendo Katas with the bokuto to get a sense of distance, which is very useful to make our Katas "believable". Self practice works if you're still learning the steps, but is quite hard to develop the metsuke or zanshin required without external observation. Like my sempai said, it's pretty obvious if you're not taking it seriously or lack training as you'll just be dancing with a sword.

There are paired Katas as well, but that's pretty advanced stuff called koryu where it becomes more practical(for 15th century Japan at least) using shinken so mistakes can be a danger.

Myself, I got into Iai to discipline my mind, and to focus.

[Bartrim]

I have to do a bo staff kata at my next grading. I've tried it a few times and I am hell unco

[GoktimusPrime]

I massively suck at weapons too. Admittedly it's something that doesn't personally interest me.

There are paired Katas as well, but that's pretty advanced stuff called koryu where it becomes more practical(for 15th century Japan at least) using shinken so mistakes can be a danger.

Myself, I got into Iai to discipline my mind, and to focus.

Fair enough. And I can appreciate you wanting to perfect your techniques and form too; even if weapon arts aren't something one learns for self defence, if you're gonna learn it you might as well do it right! A former colleague of mine is one of the top ranking Kendoka in NSW and he also practises Iai.

Do you guys ever do demonstrations at Medieval/Renaissance Fairs? I'd love to see that -- I find that they're all too often very Euro-centric, and it'd be nice if they included elements of other cultures from that same historical period. Though technically the modern Gi and certainly your belts wouldn't be historically accurate... but ignorance may be on your side. Cos I know if you go to these events with a European persona, other people will ruthlessly nitpick everything! (e.g. "Look at that person in Elizabethan gown with a Byzantine belt! Har!!") ... oh, and I've been told that in Western European martial arts, a white belt means you're a Knight, so you'd^I'd be likely to get challenged if I walked around one of those in my Gi!

[Raptormesh]

Do you guys ever do demonstrations at Medieval/Renaissance Fairs? I'd love to see that -- I find that they're all too often very Euro-centric, and it'd be nice if they included elements of other cultures from that same historical period. Though technically the modern Gi and certainly your belts wouldn't be historically accurate... but ignorance may be on your side. Cos I know if you go to these events with a European persona, other people will ruthlessly nitpick everything! (e.g. "Look at that person in Elizabethan gown with a Byzantine belt! Har!!") ... oh, and I've been told that in Western European martial arts, a white belt means you're a Knight, so you'd^I'd be likely to get challenged if I walked around one of those in my Gi!

Haha, no I don't imagine we ever demo'd at those fairs but we do demo at Japanese Festivals if there are requests here in VIC. Would be a bit weird trolling those fairs in our gear to be honest .

Even when we do demo it's usually insanely quiet and subdued unlike other martial arts. My sensei and sempais even point out if I make a sound drawing or sheathing my iaito. My dojo has a huge complement of Kendokas and people training naginata as well. Most of the senseis for iai and naginata also train in Kendo and I plan to as well. Well, either that or Jodo.

[GoktimusPrime]

Haha, no I don't imagine we ever demo'd at those fairs but we do demo at Japanese Festivals if there are requests here in VIC. Would be a bit weird trolling those fairs in our gear to be honest .

Far from it, I think you'll find that anyone with a non-European persona at a Medieval/Renaissance recreational event is more likely to draw a lot of positive attention as they're just so rare and thus seen as highly exotic!

Even when we do demo it's usually insanely quiet and subdued unlike other martial arts.

A lot of martial arts don't do any shouting. In Tai Chi we're never taught to shout -- Tai Chi forms and drills are practised with an air of serenity. But having said that, I do find that even Tai Chi fighters will end up making noises during actual fight practice (e.g. fight drills, sparring etc.) - but it's more like a 'subdued tennis grunt.'

[GoktimusPrime]

Went to training for the very first time in a Karate Gi! (though not the first time I've trained in a Gi, I did wear a Gi when I did Aikido -- but I've totally forgotten how to tie an Obi! )

The class I went to had a 50:50 ratio of adult and kid students. One of the youngins was a yellow belt who was continually not paying attention to Sensei and talking with another young orange belt. It was incredibly distracting. On top of that, he kept turning around to a young white belt and taunting him. Sensei wasn't doing anything to pull him in line because he would only muck up when Sensei's back was turned and he was constantly whispering and making silly gestures so as not to get noticed by Sensei. I could see that the young white belt wasn't enjoying being taunted by the yellow belt, and I was finding it a distraction. So I looked at the yellow belt and gestured for him to face the front. He gave me an unhappy look but complied. Then afterwards he started mucking around again, and I again gave him another gesture to turn around. He then gave me this incredibly dirty look... I maintained my gaze and gestured for him to turn around again. Then he got really sullen, but complied. And for the rest of the lesson was pretty much sulking in silence. I could see the young white belt smiling - relieved that the yellow belt was now leaving him alone. I later heard him whispering to the young orange belt, and I think he referred to me as a 'smart (bum)'. Was he upset that a 'lower ranking' white belt had reprimanded him? Wateva... he was giving a young white belt a hard time, and I got him to stop it in a discreet manner. Nobody else saw me gesturing to him except for the white belt that he was picking on - i.e. anyone who wasn't involved didn't see it.

On a more positive note, Sensei told me what I did wrong with the Kata on Saturday and we went through the whole thing and corrected me on what I was doing wrong. That was really useful.

I also did something incredibly stupid. I initially intended to just go straight to training and back home, but on the way back I remembered that we were out of milk. So I stopped by a supermarket to get some -- still wearing my full Gi (cos I hadn't brought a change of clothes like everyone else does!). Felt like a complete goose. I also bumped into a former sempai from GKR... extra embarrassment. She was still wearing her Gi pants, but at least had the common sense to change her top.

<facepalm.self>