Martial arts discussion thread

[kup]

The real way to learn to fight is if you fight somebody who you know is willing to do you harm. Sparing in 'Controlled' environments are too artificial and choreographed to be proper training.

In a real life fight you will not know if your attacker is going to kick, punch, bite or throw himself at you. Although fighting technique does help immensely, you need to know how to implement it almost by instinct rather than choreography (as most dojos teach it) and be able to change and adapt your move based on the split second circumstance.

You can only learn that through real full contact fighting rather than the typical dojo 'I stand 1m apart and pretend to hit you with this move and you pretend defending a second after I do it' controlled environment.

I remember when I was a kid, I decided to do Karate for a few weeks - Boy that was a waste of time and money! All the moves were super artificially choreographed into awkward 'if I move I will trip over my leg' stances with lots of repetitive moves and stances that even as a 12 year old I could see how I could counter them through unorthodox thinking.

When it came to sparing, it was basically how I described it above 'I hit the air in front of you and then you hit the air in front of me' turn based training. I found it utterly ridiculous as there was no hope in hell that the school's method of teaching was going to work in a real life fight since there is no training on proper adaptive fighting and since the same style of training continued to higher belts, it became utterly pointless.

When it dawned on me how ridiculous the whole thing was during a sparing session, I decided to playfully kick 'my opponent' in the ass while he was waiting for a pretend punch. I found it hilarious but the other kid got really upset and almost cried although the kick wasn't hard enough to hurt him. He kept shouting 'Watch the contact! Watch the contact!' and then I knew I should probably quit since this show wasn't as advertised.

[GoktimusPrime]

I fundamentally agree with what you're saying, but at the same time martial arts instructors have a legal duty of care over their students (the same as school teachers). They cannot allow their students to get hurt or sustain injury during the course of training, and must take measures to prevent injury and deal with injury if it occurs.

If an instructor tells two students to free spar and if a student sustains serious injury that requires costly medical attention (e.g. physiotherapy or surgery etc.) then they can make a claim against the martial arts school/instructor. If the instructor took reasonable measures to ensure student safety (e.g.: elicited them to wear protective gear, used mats to fall on etc.), then his/her insurance will cover the cost of the claim. However if it turns out that the instructor did not take reasonable means to ensure student safety, then the insurance company will not cover the cost of the claim. It works the same as other forms of insurance like car insurance. Instructor makes a claim, insurance company investigates claims and either provides or denies cover depending on the findings of their investigation. So instructors are often torn between trying to provide a realistic fight environment, while at the same time trying to keep their students safe from harm.

And yes, I know there are lots of martial arts instructors who DON'T do enough (or anything at all) to ensure student safety, and this is why the cost of insurance premiums for martial arts teachers is always on the rise. (costs which are often passed onto students via costly lesson or membership fees)

you need to know how to implement it almost by instinct rather than choreography (as most dojos teach it) and be able to change and adapt your move based on the split second circumstance

Absolutely right. You should be able to implement your techniques reflexively as if it were second nature -- as you said, instinctively. Qui Gon Jinn described it well in Star Wars Episode I "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." If you need to _think_ about how to counter an attack, then you're going to lose the fight. External martial arts are well known for their explosive ferocity, which is a trademark that distinguishes them from internal styles. And I find it's a common weakness with people who practice internal styles like Tai Chi -- while I really like the internal concepts of passive defence, it's also essential to have an element of explosive ferocity. You need to be like a loaded mousetrap; when someone attacks you you just SNAP with a defence/counter.

Perhaps the most crucial reason why your techniques must be instinctual is because you will be fighting under extreme fear in a real fight. One good way to train for this is to use exercises where you are attacked by surprise. This can be done by having the defender close his/her eyes while the attacker sets themselves up in a completely random position with a punch, kick, elbow, knee, headbutt etc. only a few centimetres from their body. As soon as the defender opens their eyes they MUST counter that attack immediately. You can make it harder by asking the attacker to actually _continue_ their attack as soon as they see the defender open his/her eyes. e.g.: you hold a punch in front of their face and as soon as they open their eyes you move your fist forward and make light contact with their face. It doesn't hurt but it lets them know that they've been hit. The aim of the game becomes to react within a fraction of a second and not get touched. Of course there are many other methods of simulating fear in training, this is just one example.

This article really describes well how fear works in a fight. One good point the article brings up is the importance of controlled breathing in a fight, which is why so many traditional martial arts have controlled breathing exercises (e.g. controlled breathing during practice of forms/patterns, meditation etc.). Controlled breathing is crucial even in other sports like swimming; you don't want your cells starved of oxygen midway in a fight.

When it came to sparing, it was basically how I described it above 'I hit the air in front of you and then you hit the air in front of me' turn based training. I found it utterly ridiculous as there was no hope in hell that the school's method of teaching was going to work in a real life fight since there is no training on proper adaptive fighting and since the same style of training continued to higher belts, it became utterly pointless.

Again, you can't have students actually hitting each other for legal reasons. But you can do other things like have light contact or elicit students to wear protective gear so you can hit harder while minimising the chances of hurting them.

Schools that teach European martial arts like Broadsword and Spanish Rapier Brawling always enforce their students to be covered head to toe in protective gear (and on top of that they wear armour like gauntlets, breastplates, chainmail etc.), even though they train with swords made from paper (like _extremely_ dense paper which has the same mass as a metal sword; believe me, they f***ing hurt!) or rotand and not live blades.

When it dawned on me how ridiculous the whole thing was during a sparing session, I decided to playfully kick 'my opponent' in the ass while he was waiting for a pretend punch. I found it hilarious but the other kid got really upset and almost cried although the kick wasn't hard enough to hurt him. He kept shouting 'Watch the contact! Watch the contact!' and then I knew I should probably quit since this show wasn't as advertised.

Mmm... yeah. Another problem that some schools have is conditioning students to take hits. In a real fight you're going to be hit and it's something you have to be prepared for. There are conditioning exercises that can harden your body up. e.g.: Karate practitioners often slam their arms and legs against each other, or lightly punch themselves in the guts as they do push-ups. Practitioners of martial arts that involve lots of falling like Jujutsu, Aikido etc. are naturally hardened from all the times they keep falling down on mats. It's the same concept as rugby players who have really good endurance because they get tackled a lot.

[Cmdr Prime]

Goktimus Prime may I ask what belt are you?

AS for myself I am a 2nd Dan Black Belt

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't have a belt. Not all martial arts schools use the coloured belt grading system.

The coloured belt grading system's never been a traditional part of martial arts. It's something that was created when Judo decided to become a federated sport around the turn of the 20th Century; and even then there were only 3 belts (white, brown, black - most dojos in Japan only use 3 belts). The other colours were added in later as martial arts became more commercialised.

I think there are some advantages and disadvantages to using belt grades; but they're not an utterly essential part of martial arts practice. A much more important question over "What grade are you?" is "Can you fight?" -- if your answer is "yes," then you're doing well.

I find having a black belt is like having a drivers licence. In theory it should mean that you're a competent, but in reality it all depends on the individual. (^_^)

[Rampage]

Let's start an OTCA fight meet in which we all get together somewhere and have one on one fights to proof which one of us has the more effective fighting style. Afterwards we can get together in the Emergency Room and chat about Transformers!

I choose to fight kuzzy in the first round he's as tall as me sounds fair?....

[GoktimusPrime]

Here's a pet peeve of mine: I hate it when martial arts schools which teach styles that are _clearly_ not intended for fighting and don't point this out to their students, or worse, actually claim that they're teaching self defence.

I recently spoke to two guys who'd practised Modern Wushu, which is an exhibition sport derived from traditional Wushu (Kung Fu) - but as such, is no longer a fighting form. It's commonly used in Kung Fu movies and looks all pretty and spectacular... quite entertaining, but it's not fighting. Yet neither of these kids were told that what they'd learnt isn't applicable for self defence, thus giving them false confidence. This can be dangerous cos they could be walking around thinking that their acrobatic and gymnastic stylised moves could save them against someone wanting to beat the snot out of them, and if that ever happened they'd be in for a rude shock.

One of my university lecturers used to practice Modern Wushu in China and he said that it was great for fitness and he loves the sport, but he also said that if anyone could actually apply it in a fight he'd eat his hat.

[sifun]

what do you use to bridge the gap when you need to attack?

[GoktimusPrime]

what do you use to bridge the gap when you need to attack?

"Sticking" works well.

Other styles/schools may have different names for it which I'm not familiar with, but we call it sticking. It's basically attaching part of your body (e.g.: forearm) onto their body and then "sticking" onto them. Tai Chi's Push Hands (Tui Shou) is a good exercise that trains you to continue sticking onto your opponent while they're moving (e.g.: trying to "unstick" themselves from you) and then leading to defeating them (typically by penetrating their centre of mass/gravity).

While the exercise is quite good, a mistake that a lot of Tai Chi practitioners make is that they begin the sticking exercise with their bodies _already_ in contact, and not starting at a distance. This of course doesn't teach you to bridge gaps. But the concept of the Push Hands exercise is still sound - you just have to remember to use it to bridge the gap first by starting at a distance and not already in-contact. "Seeking" or "latching" should be the initial stages of sticking.

But I guess it's because a lot of people do Tai Chi as a form of exercise and don't really care about its fight apps.

Push Hands video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkyq9FljlG8

[Bartrim]

I choose to fight kuzzy in the first round he's as tall as me sounds fair?....

$50on Kuzzy

[GoktimusPrime]

What do you guys think when you hear that someone has a black belt? My first thought is, "So?"

As I said in post #54, the coloured belt grading system:
+ Is not used in all martial arts
+ Is not even a traditional element of Japanese or Korean martial arts and was something created when Judo became a sport.

Furthermore, black belt means that you are a beginner. Yup. The other colours are all preliminary levels leading up to the beginner level. After you get your black belt you are promoted to a dan or kyu. The words dan (段) and kyu (級) mean "level" or "grade." So a 1st Dan Black Belt is someone who is Level 1, 2nd Dan is Level 2 and so on. A pre-dan black belt is like level 0, and the belt before black (typically brown belt in Japan) is like Level -1.

In my experience I've seen a wide range of abilities from black belts. Some are really good and others are so bad that you question whether or not they deserve to wear a black belt. So really... holding a black belt alone, in my observation, doesn't automatically make you a good fighter. I've come across people who can fight really well despite having NO training in martial arts or boxing, as well as people who hold black belts (or have had an equivalent level of training) and are appallingly awful fighters.

This goes back to what I was saying before in post #54 -- belt colours, grades and ranks meaning nothing to me. The basic question remains: "Can you fight?" How you answer this question means a lot more to me than the colour of a piece of cloth wrapped around your waist.

Thank you.