Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

It's evolution unfortunately. There is not much of a need for traditional schools anymore. The rise in popularity of sports martial arts over the past 10years has seen the public demand shift more to competition based schools.

Sadly I cannot disagree with you there. IMO losing traditional martial arts is also a cultural loss as well.

I trained with GKR for 8+ years and they are labelled a "mcdojo" and i would consider GKR and that video on the same level as an insult.
For Example GKR wins National All styles constantly due to a consistent quality of technique.

That being said, i'm not say you are comparing that directly to gkr but i think the use of the term is not called for in that situation.

The GKR schools around my area are what I would consider schools of dubious quality. I don't know about your GKR school -- I've never seen it so I can't judge it -- but the ones in _my_ area were incredibly disappointing.

Plus belts, competition and gradings are the way of the martial arts world now, it does not make the club untraditional or weak etc. They still have plenty of "substance".

I find the grading system is counter intuitive to traditional/practical training in two main ways:

1) Unnecessary prolonging of learning.
2) The problem with tests/exams is that some students tend to learn for passing tests rather than for actual learning.
I'm not necessarily saying that schools with belts/gradings lack substance per se, but I'm saying that the belt/grading thing feels like a massive (and costly) distraction from what I perceive as the core function of martial arts -- learning to fight.

[KalEl]

what I perceive as the core function of martial arts -- learning to fight.

The fact is (whether fortunate or unfortunate) is that martial arts are not like that in today's world for the average man/women/child.

Problem is these day, 99% of people aren't doing martial arts to learn to 'fight'. Especially your particular definition of it.
Most do it for fitness, confidence, fun, sport and numerous other reasons.

For example I started it for confidence and fitness and learnt to 'fight' as a by-product, but not the goal.

[GoktimusPrime]

^Agree.

[Bartrim]

In a bit of a pickle at the moment. My martial arts school has a few "McDojo" (even though I hate that term) qualities, like basically handing out belts (In 3.5 years I have only seen one student not pass a grading). My sensei is only young and has befriended a group of teenage boys who train with us and they now think they are "above the law" when I instruct. These are a few examples. Just recently another martial arts school from Nowra expanded and opened up down in Ulladulla. We lost a few members to this school and I saw these 3 guys last week. I quizzed them about the new school and they all said it's better. It is a competition based academy that doesn't teach karate. They teach Muay Thai and BJJ as these are the most common bases used by mixed martial artists. I am really enjoying the karate but am kinda getting sick of this school. We have just started a Ju Jitsu syllabus but I don't like it as my Sensei is learning as we are learning (It basically gives me the feel of the GKR people with "instructor" belts teaching when they are hardly know what they are doing-not bagging out GKR Kal El just one of their practices I've read about) So I have done a little bit of submission work and enjoy it. I am contemplating a move to the new place to study BJJ while staying at the current place to learn karate but I am a bit concerned of what my Sensei's reaction will be as he is young and I have seen him say some things to people he shouldn't. To make matters worse I am currently studying to do my instructor accreditation through the current dojo and I don't want to waste the money I've paid to do the course by him getting upset with me and not letting me finish my accreditation (I have to be filmed teaching 3 classes). Don't know what to do.

[KalEl]

(It basically gives me the feel of the GKR people with "instructor" belts teaching when they are hardly know what they are doing-not bagging out GKR Kal El just one of their practices I've read about)

dont worry I agree entirely, the 'instructor' belt system is very flawed. I myself went through this system and had multiple classes of my own as a green belt. I excelled at my physical karate and was a reasonable teacher, the key for me is I was able to show any student up to a 1st dan what they needed for gradings. Unfortunately this is not the case Most 'black and white' belts in my opinion are under qualified and don't have a sound grasp of fundamentals to teach even sometimes to assist.
That being said being a black belt of higher does not mean you are capable of teaching anything. Communication skills are paramount, also you need to be able to convey the same instruction to 10 different people, 10 different ways and get the same result.
It comes down to 'individual results may vary'. But the key is being about to pass knowledge on the a student of any level that walk through the door regardless of rank.

As a rule of thumb i believe Sensei should be a 1st dan minimum in most cases but there are exceptions where a student may excel and have the necessary communication skills to convey what is required. Just my two cents on the subject :P



Now I can see where your coming from with the issues in your school. To be honest having a clique in a class is unexceptionable, outside of training is cool but in a formal class it is unprofessional and shouldn't be tolerated.
Every student deserves the same attention, tuition and at the same time be subject to the same scrutiny/trials regardless of grade or personal connection. Also the other way, regardless of who is instructing, students should be respectful and open to instruction. "Above the law" can Feck off.

[Sinnertwin]

Holy crap... Hong Kong Airlines flight attendants are being taught Wing Chun Kung Fu to defend themselves from violently behaved passengers from mainland China!
http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...729-2qtjs.html

It's pretty damn sad when members of the public become so badly behaved that a company has to teach their service staff self defence.

Somebody acts up, flight crew step in and subdues the individual, opens cargo door and out they go. No more extensive delays or paperwork. As you were, Captain.

[GoktimusPrime]

In a bit of a pickle at the moment. My martial arts school has a few "McDojo" (even though I hate that term) qualities, like basically handing out belts (In 3.5 years I have only seen one student not pass a grading).

Just to play a bit of Devil's Advocate here, the good thing about getting people through belts faster is that you can get them to black belt sooner where the "real" Karate training begins. The pre-black belt grades and curriculum originated from 20th Century Japan where Karate was introduced to schools and taught to children. Additional simplified katas and movements were introduced to make it simple for young children who lack the motor and cognitive skills to perform more traditional katas designed to be taught to adolescents and adults. Also the teaching methodology is geared at children; i.e. entirely teacher centred rote learning as opposed to more student centred teaching that encourages critical, analytic and evaluative thinking. My Karate dojo teaches the exact same way, which I find incredibly under-stimulating. My former Chen Tai Chi school was geared toward student centred adult learning where we were actively taught to be analytic and evaluative in what we did; moving from that more "academic" culture of martial arts learning to one that feels like martial arts primary school does feel jarring to me; and ultimately counter productive to effective teaching. I can see the merit of this teaching method for children, but I don't see why they blindly teach adolescents and adults in the same way when we have a more developed set of motor and cognitive skills (especially anyone who's ever done any kind of sports before; even a lot of kids do sports other than martial arts which have already well developed many of their physical and coordinative skill sets).

I honestly wish my Dojo would just dispense with the whole belt/grading thing and just move people on as they feel they're ready. That's what traditional schools do that don't have belt-grades. You teach them a form... once they've mastered it and its applications, then you teach the next level. Some students will learn very quickly, others might take more time; it's not a race. Also, as discussed before, the problem with tests is that people train to pass the test rather than to actually become proficient fighters. The same thing happens in schools too -- I've had (and continue to have) many students whose test results are better than their actual ability and vice versa. The main reason why schools have exams is because it's a good way to assess people en masse with little opportunity to cheat. But there are some university courses that don't have exams and find other ways to assess their students. In a martial arts school, once you've trained with someone after a while you get to know what their strengths and weaknesses are. Do you really need a formal examination to tell you? If someone isn't good with stances, they may try extra hard to move in correct stances during grading, but then the rest of the time their stances are sloppy. I find that in my current Dojo (and at the GKR dojo) there's a culture of, "Let's look good for the test!" as opposed to, "Let's get it right every time!"

For me, I try to get things right every time -- but at the day of my grading, maybe due to nervousness or whatever, I made some mistakes, so I didn't score as highly as some others. And that's another criticism of exams - they're only a snapshot of how you perform on the day of the test. That's why a lot of teachers are highly critical of the NAPLAN tests and the MySchools website which judges schools according to NAPLAN results which are nothing more than a snapshot. And there are parents and schools who coach children for NAPLAN (you can buy books at newsagents to help tutor your kids for NAPLAN). It doesn't actually work toward improving your child's literacy or numeracy though (it just helps to make them better at passing that set of exams!).

To me, the belt-grading system is like the martial arts equivalent of NAPLAN. A series of test with little merit for actual teaching/learning (and if anything, is more counter-intuitive to teaching and learning). :/

My sensei is only young and has befriended a group of teenage boys who train with us and they now think they are "above the law" when I instruct. These are a few examples. Just recently another martial arts school from Nowra expanded and opened up down in Ulladulla. We lost a few members to this school and I saw these 3 guys last week. I quizzed them about the new school and they all said it's better. It is a competition based academy that doesn't teach karate. They teach Muay Thai and BJJ as these are the most common bases used by mixed martial artists.

Students who think they're above the law really should be swiftly dealt with. If they continue to ignore cautions and reprimands, then IMHO the school should consider expulsion. The last thing the martial arts community needs is more irresponsible people w/ MA training. As Jerry Wang said in Dark of the Moon, "Come back when you've learned some manners!"

I am really enjoying the karate but am kinda getting sick of this school. We have just started a Ju Jitsu syllabus but I don't like it as my Sensei is learning as we are learning (It basically gives me the feel of the GKR people with "instructor" belts teaching when they are hardly know what they are doing-not bagging out GKR Kal El just one of their practices I've read about)

. . . . . how is he a qualified Juujutsu instructor if he's only just started learning it himself? I don't mind if martial arts instructors might want to try something from another style and throw it in w/ their mainstream training. In Kung Fu this happens a lot because so many Kung Fu styles are incomplete thanks to the Cultural Revolution irrevocably destroying much of Chinese culture (temples were razed, books were burnt and monks were executed; consequently a lot of knowledge was lost forever); but one needs to be clever about it -- often drawing movements from similar related styles. I actually wish my Dojo would dabble in stuff from other arts once in a while, but I doubt my instructor even knows anything from other Karate styles (most people at my Dojo don't know the difference between a Kibadachi and Shikodachi ), let alone other non-Karate martial arts.

But if he's actually developing an entire syllabus and actually holding regular Juujutsu classes and charging people money to teach them something that he's barely an expert in himself, then yeah, that's different. It might be better to continue teaching Karate classes, but maybe once in a while just muck around with a bit of Juujutsu during the Karate class. What would be useful would be to get students to use their Karate to counter Juujutsu attacks and vice versa. Surely one of the great benefits of introducing other martial arts styles into your training is allowing students to use their existing knowledge to counter it. I know for me when I look at other styles I often think, "What would I do against that?"

So far I've seen NO submission work or grappling in Goju Karate, we don't even do breakfalls. If they don't want to use these techniques, that's fine... but I think it's important to know how to counter them. A lot of students at my Dojo have fallen into the "trap" of only training to fight against another Goju Karateka and are more vulnerable to being upended in a fight against a proficient fighter of another style.

Now I can see where your coming from with the issues in your school. To be honest having a clique in a class is unexceptionable, outside of training is cool but in a formal class it is unprofessional and shouldn't be tolerated.
Every student deserves the same attention, tuition and at the same time be subject to the same scrutiny/trials regardless of grade or personal connection. Also the other way, regardless of who is instructing, students should be respectful and open to instruction. "Above the law" can Feck off.

^100% agree. Instructors need to maintain professional standards and students who aren't willing to listen can bugger off.

[GoktimusPrime]

So I called my local BJJ school to arrange for a free introductory lesson. I also enquired about prices... PHWOAR! Not cheap!
Lessons = $72 / fortnight (approx. $3k / year)
Uniform = $190+


And apparently you have to buy their school's uniform which is covered in their logo; I don't think they'll let me use my old Aikido gi (which is the same thing, but w/o their logos). Just... wow. The lesson cost might be worth it if I were could attend 3~4 lessons per week, but currently I'm lucky if I can train once a week. And I really can't justify paying nearly two hundred bucks for a gi... jeepers crikey. The only upside is that there's no annual membership/enrolment fee -- most likely because it'd be more than paid for by the exorbitant lesson fees. Especially w/ my daughter starting school next year, as appealing as BJJ may be, I just cannot justify the expense.

[Bartrim]

So I called my local BJJ school to arrange for a free introductory lesson. I also enquired about prices... PHWOAR! Not cheap!
Lessons = $72 / fortnight (approx. $3k / year)
Uniform = $190+


And apparently you have to buy their school's uniform which is covered in their logo; I don't think they'll let me use my old Aikido gi (which is the same thing, but w/o their logos). Just... wow. The lesson cost might be worth it if I were could attend 3~4 lessons per week, but currently I'm lucky if I can train once a week. And I really can't justify paying nearly two hundred bucks for a gi... jeepers crikey. The only upside is that there's no annual membership/enrolment fee -- most likely because it'd be more than paid for by the exorbitant lesson fees. Especially w/ my daughter starting school next year, as appealing as BJJ may be, I just cannot justify the expense.

I enquired about the BJJ class at the new academy in town and I was really impressed with their policy. They take your details (either credit card or direct deposit) and you receive a membership card that gets scanned everytime you take a class. Then at the end of the week they take the appropriate amount of money out of your account so if you don't train you don't have to pay.

[GoktimusPrime]

Recently saw some stuff about how to kick down a door...
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/0...k-down-a-door/
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/1...strated-guide/
...which is similar to a conversation I once had w/ a police officer who's had to kick doors down before and described the technique like this.

What interests me is that when using the front kick to knock doors off hinges, it's pretty much the same as a front kick used in Chinese martial arts (and was apparently how the Okinawans originally front kicked too, so it appears to be more traditional); i.e. driving off the heel of the supporting foot and impacting with the heel of the kicking foot -- whereas in Karate we're taught the opposite - to drive and impact with the balls of the feet. I've personally felt that driving from the balls of the feet gives less power. Driving from the heel of the supporting leg obviously provides greater stability. When we walk we naturally stride heel first, not on the balls of our feet or toes ... unless you're trying to be sneaky. So it's also more naturally intuitive.

A simple test to see how much stronger a heel strike can be is to just, even from where you're sitting, start stamping the ball of your foot into the floor as hard as you can. Now try it again with the heel. I don't know about you guys, but I get a much harder thud with my heel. And I know that when I'm kicking against bags/shields, I deliver much more power with my heel than I can with the ball. That's NOT to say that kicking with the ball of the foot is weak or powerless; but I'm just saying that, biomechanically speaking, it seems that striking with the heel delivers greater power and thrust than with the ball.

So I'm finding it hard to favour stepping and kicking with the balls of my feet when using my heels still seems to give me greater power in my steps and kicks. The main advantage I would see with using the ball would be greater range, not just in terms of extended reach, but also in terms of the supporting leg "slingshotting" you forward more, which a heel turn doesn't do. Arguably some of this reach may be limited when you're wearing hard shoes that don't easily allow your toes to bend back. Chinese martial arts train with shoes on, and probably the ancient Okinawans too -- shoe-off training is more of a Japanese thing and purely because they trained on tatami mats that would get damaged by hard soles. Even the Japanese would've practised w/ shoes on when outdoors. At my Dojo whenever we've done bagwork with kicks, other students have thrown kicks with the balls of their feet and the most powerful ones have thumped into the shield, but my heel kicks actually drive the instructor backwards as the force of each kick pushes him away, even with his solid stance. Ditto Kingeri/lift kicks, and I would attribute that to me turning on the heel of my supporting leg (since the foot still impacts on the same part of the kicking foot).

My intention isn't necessarily to say that heel based stepping/kicking is definitively superior to ball based stepping/kicking; different things work for different people, and in my experience using the heels works better for me. What I would like to suggest is for people to just try stepping and kicking with the heels and see if it makes any improvement. If not, then by all means continue using the balls of your feet. But what's been irking me during my Karate training has been this bias that everyone in my Dojo has against using heels. Sensei can't stand it and just loses it when people turn/kick on the heels, and I'm forever being corrected on it. I don't intentionally use the heels in my Karate training - I do try to use the balls of my feet, but I probably do it unconsciously because my previous Tai Chi training has made it instinctive for me to use the heels. And I haven't really been shown any good reason why I shouldn't use the heels; the instructors keep insisting that stepping/turning on the heels is terribly unstable, but I don't experience that at all. If stepping on the balls of the feet is so much more stable, why don't we all walk on tippy toes 24/7? Why do athletes like runners, tennis players, footballers etc. all step heel first if it's so unstable?

I would rather have an instructor just tell me that it's a stylistic difference and that in Karate we step/kick with the balls of the feet as a stylistic preference rather than trying to feed me some pseudo-scientific reason that doesn't make sense. e.g. I've learnt two different single leg stances in Chinese martial arts - the Crane Stance and the Rooster Stance. They're both nearly identical stances, both in form and function -- the only real difference is that the Crane Stance has the toes pointing down whereas the Rooster Stance has the toes pointing forward. Neither really offers any substantial advantage over the other; it's pretty much just a personal/stylistic difference. I personally prefer the Crane Stance which is what I use in application, but in my Tai Chi forms I use Rooster Stance because that's the correct way to do the form.

And I can accept that the correct way to step and kick in modern Karate is on the balls of the feet; I don't have a problem with that... what I find more objectionable is being told that the other method is inherently flawed but without any actual proof. That's like saying that we shouldn't start sentences in English with a conjunction because it will make it harder for people to understand you. No it won't. Yes, technically it is bad English, but it doesn't impact on your ability to communicate.
e.g. "I prefer using the heels." vs "But I prefer using the heels."
^The second sentence is grammatically incorrect, but in actual conversational application it makes no substantive difference.