Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

I personally don't like being corrected on my technique unless someone can demonstrate to me why it's wrong - i.e. it compromises my fighting capacity. For example, my current instructor often tells me that my bow stance (Kibadachi) is too narrow and that I need to stand with my legs further apart, but I keep telling her that it opens my groin making it more of an open target. Her counter argument was that my narrower bow stance is less stable if someone were to push me from the side... but WHY would I stand at bow stance side on to an opponent in the first place?? Even if my opponent managed to hop to my side and push me, I could still drop into something like a Sitting Twisted Stance to catch myself and compensate. In the end, she couldn't supply me with a good reason as to why my bow stance is incorrect other than because it's different from hers. But she still considers my version to be "wrong" and keeps trying to correct me when I do it...

IMO if what you're doing in martial arts works, then how can it be wrong? Even if it doesn't work for you, if it works for someone else, then how can it be wrong (at least for them)?

I use vertical fist for straight punches. I don't think it's necessarily better or worse than using a horizontal fist -- the only marginal advantage of a horizontal fist is the additional 90 degree rotation which would help generate more torsion, but really you can generate a lot more torque from your legs, hips and waist (re: from your stance) anyway.

And I think punitive measures might work for people who are just plain disobedient or recalcitrant -- and if someone's gonna have that kind of attitude, they probably shouldn't be taught martial arts. But for most people who are earnestly trying to learn the technique, I think simply correcting them by explaining to them why they're wrong works better.

One thing I find with some martial artists - and my current instructor is one of these - is that they become more concerned with form over function. Everything has to look exactly right and done by the book; as if it's more important than... ya know, being able to fight. I used to work with a Japanese guy who's a black belt in 3 different martial arts who was exactly like that too -- a complete perfectionist in form, but when we trained together... could he actually use his flawless form in a fight scenario? Nope. And I'm not even an advanced fighter or anything. I've often told people that if I can beat you, then you really aren't that good, because I'm not!

So I don't like to get too obsessed about form... to me, function matters more. And this is one criticism that some people have about grading and testing -- being able to perform brilliantly in a test doesn't mean you can apply it well IRL. Just look at drivers... we all know that there are plenty of people who pass driving tests and get their drivers licences, but are absolutely terrible drivers on the road.

[SkyWarp91]

You never know Gok, the form of your stance can give off impressions which may intimidate those that try to fight you.

I'm no fighter myself but the second I tense my muscles and put on the mad face and say f off in The Fallen's voice people tend to back off lol

[Bartrim]

You might think it's marginal but we put it in practice and I think there is quite a difference in the power you get from using a horizontal fist over a vertical fist... atleast my partner thought so when he got doubled over

[GoktimusPrime]

You never know Gok, the form of your stance can give off impressions which may intimidate those that try to fight you.

I'm no fighter myself but the second I tense my muscles and put on the mad face and say f off in The Fallen's voice people tend to back off lol

That's not what I really meant by your "stance" -- you're talking more about the way you present yourself. And even then, that's pre-fight. The moment the fight is happening then you have to drop all that pretense and get down to the core business of survival. Look at Drunken style Kung Fu for example, I mean the real one, not the rubbish you see in movies. In movies the "drunken" fighter is shown to stumble about like an actual drunkard and appears to be "accidentally" blocking moves and hitting the attacker, but in real life it's nothing like that. A real Drunken style fighter appears drunk _before_ a fight... swaying and staggering about to give the illusion of a drunkard. But as soon as the fight begins, e.g. as soon as contact is made, all that deception is _dropped_ and they just proceed to beat the snot out of you!

It works a lot like being a robot in disguise -- look at Barricade. In alt mode he masquerades as a police car. But the moment he transforms to robot mode, ANY pretense of being a police car just flies out the window, and he just proceeds to get down to business. Likewise certain predatory animals who try to blend into the environment, but when they attack their prey, that deception has stopped.

"No more disguises!" - Megatron (Revenge of the Fallen)

A stance is actually how you stand in a fight, which is the fundamental core part of fighting. I once heard someone quote a Gojuryu Karate Sensei as saying, "If stance is wrong, all Karate wrong." -- and I wholeheartedly agree with that.

You might think it's marginal but we put it in practice and I think there is quite a difference in the power you get from using a horizontal fist over a vertical fist... atleast my partner thought so when he got doubled over

Okay, that's fine. So correct the student by demonstrating this and showing him the merits/benefits of the horizontal fist. Maybe have him hold a focus pad and then show him a punch with a vertical fist and let him feel the power of that. Then show him a punch with a horizontal fist and let him feel the power of that and compare for himself. This should allow him to learn for himself the difference between the two techniques.

There are advantages and disadvantages to horizontal and vertical punching. While the horizontal fist does deliver more power because of the additional torque, its drawbacks are:
+ Greater propensity for the wrist to fold on impact
+ Vertical punching allows the user to keep the elbow pointed down, defending the midsection, whereas the horizontal punch naturally causes the forearm to rise and points the elbow away from the body thus creating an opening
+ some people argue that vertical punches anatomically allow the first two knuckles to make contact, whereas horizontal punches present the middle knuckle, but I think this is a pretty minor point because as we all know, as you drive your punch through your target, every knuckle is going to make contact.

Also, traditional Karate uses the vertical punch, known as "Tate-ken" (立て拳; "standing fist"), whereas the horizontal punch or "Yoko-ken" (横拳; "sideways fist") came in later... possibly when Karate was adopted by the Japanese (just a wild guess). Apparently vertical punches feature more predominantly in traditional Okinawan Karate katas - again, another guess... I don't know the exact history of how Karate punches made the shift from vertical punching to horizontal punching.

But in any case, if your style/school favours horizontal punching and that's what you want to teach -- that's fine (I mean, if this student prefers vertical punching then perhaps he should switch to another martial art that uses that)... but from a teaching and learning POV I think it's more beneficial to correct student mistakes through explanation, demonstration and application rather than punishment. It depends on the context though... is the student vertically punching on purpose as an act of defiance? Or is it an honest mistake? If it's an honest mistake, then I don't think punishing him is a good idea... that's like if I give a kid a detention for answering a question incorrectly. If he's intentionally disobeying the instructor, then exclude him from training. You don't need students in the dojo who are just wasting Sensei's time on purpose. (-_-)

[Bartrim]

Grading tonight. Going for my blue belt. Starting to move up in the class now and feeling less like a noob

[Bartrim]

Got my blue belt. I'm almost halfway there... belt wise. Of course the higher the belt the harder the grading.

[GoktimusPrime]

Congrats!

[Bartrim]

My Sensei came into work for a chat the other day. He asked me if I was interested in double grading at the end of the year. Must be doing somethign right

[GoktimusPrime]

It's good to see that he's willing to push you through faster rather than deliberately holding you back as many schools do. Most schools actually grade too slowly IMO. Of course individual skill, and motivation comes into it too - but I've seen dedicated students who train relentlessly, but still take years to get a black belt - and other schools which will let devoted & highly competent students get black belt in a matter of months. But yeah, I'm all for progressing students based on their individual merit rather than some notion that it 'should' take ages to get a black belt. If someone is demonstrating the potential competence to train at black belt level, why not progress them there faster?

Besides... black belt = Beginner level (and 1st Dan = Level 1). Why spend years and years and truckloads of dollars on pre-Beginner level training?? That only makes sense to me if the person has never done any kind of sport before and/or has poor physical and coordination skills. In such cases, then yeah, spending more pre-Beginner training makes sense, but for a person of average physicality and skill, I think a lot of schools just take way too long with students who train regularly. Of course, making them train longer between gradings generates more $$$ for the school. (>_>)

So kudos to your Sensei for pushing you through on your merits.

[Bartrim]

Besides... black belt = Beginner level (and 1st Dan = Level 1). Why spend years and years and truckloads of dollars on pre-Beginner level training?? That only makes sense to me if the person has never done any kind of sport before and/or has poor physical and coordination skills. In such cases, then yeah, spending more pre-Beginner training makes sense, but for a person of average physicality and skill, I think a lot of schools just take way too long with students who train regularly. Of course, making them train longer between gradings generates more $$$ for the school. (>_>)

So kudos to your Sensei for pushing you through on your merits.

I had a one on one training session with my Sensei and we got to talking about when I could realistically achieve black belt status and I asked him about these definitions and he said although these may be the translation, it doesn't actually relate to our belt rankings as it would seem pretty stupid for a "beginner" to have his own academy.

The one on one session was great. Didn't realize some of the technical mistakes I was making eg: dropping my arm too far to perform an uppercut.