Martial arts discussion thread

[Borgeman]

roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...

George

[TheDirtyDigger]

I don't know Gok. Looks a little contrived to me.

[GoktimusPrime]

Charming.

That's the difference between ducking and weaving (bobbing) and other more conventional forms of ducking in traditional martial arts, e.g.: using a Circle-Entering Step or Kneeling Stance - the crucial difference is that with something like a Circle-Entering stance the spine is kept erect thus keeping it unexposed. With a modern boxing style duck and weave, the head leans forward and thus the spine faces "Heaven" and is exposed.

A boxing style duck and weave is easier to do because it doesn't require as much crouching/kneeling with the leg work, but at the expense of exposing the spine - which is an illegal target in boxing, so boxers don't really care about that. It is possible to be quite dexterous with a Circle Entering stance, but it requires more lower body work - more springing, hopping, sliding etc., and of course, it keeps the spine less exposed.

It's for this same reason why boxers will lean their head forward when delivering an uppercut - it gives more power to the uppercut, but exposes the head and upper vertebrae to danger from a strike or head lock/neck-twist

Here are some images of how boxers will happily lean their heads forward...

An illustration of the bobbing style of ducking/weaving used in modern boxing and other competition fights


The boxer on the right is blocking his attacker's uppercut by dropping his elbow, but notice how he's willing to lean his head toward his opponent - this would only work in a sport/comp fight. In a real fight it is dangerously exposing the head/neck/upper spine


A boxer will lean his head forward to deliver more power for his uppercut, but again leaving the head/neck exposed to danger if he were in a real fight



Now compare this with more traditional martial arts...

A Kneeling Stance - although in this application he's attacking an opponent on the ground, which is kinda strange. If I wanted to attack a grounded opponent I'd just repeatedly kick/stomp. But anyway, the actual stance here is sound - note how the upper body is erect.


When attacking a standing opponent, the Kneeling stance should look more like this...

...although this guy is leaning to his left for some odd reason. Combine this guy's handwork with the guy above's leg/body position and you have a more ideal kneeling stance.

A Circle Entering stance - this stance is effectively spot on. This application has him kneeling quite low which a lot of people do for conditioning.

roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...

That sounds like a competition attitude. In a real fight or actual self defence situation, there are no "dirty" moves - you do what you can to survive. There are legal limits in what you can do (i.e.: equal or lesser force) but beyond there's virtually no limitation on what you can do to defend yourself in real life.

[sifun]

I think bob and weave can be used in the correct situation, even works in the ring to some extent as well, so i don't see how it can't in a real fighting situation.
if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly

Maybe they do it for take downs as well for ground fighting

[GoktimusPrime]

It works well in the ring because it is illegal to attack (and especially illegal to break/severe) the neck and upper spine. Aside from laws, there are also referees, judges and the audience (re: witnesses!) who would greatly disuade your attacker from pulling an illegal move like that. In a street fight, you don't have these conditions.

Although the law does restrict what we can do in a fight - mainly in regard to using equal or lesser force - you cannot automatically assume that your opponent is going to be totally law-abiding. I mean, in a self-defence situation, if the other person started the fight, they've already broken the law by assaulting you, so it's not as if they've established a good reputation with you for being a nice law-abiding citizen! It's for this same reason that I've often been critical against people who expose their genitals in a fight. Works fine in the ring where attacking the genitals is disallowed, but not in a real fight.

if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly

In other words, assuming that your opponent is inferior. That's a dangerous assumption to make in a fight. In a fight you should always assume that your opponent is superior to you. They may not be, but you ought to assume that they are stronger, faster and better skilled than you are. And that's another gripe I have with a lot of martial arts schools/instructors. :/

The one thing to keep in mind in a real fight is Murphy's Law: anything that can go wrong will. Always have a Plan B in case Plan A screws up and a Plan C in case Plan B screws up too and so on and so on - it becomes a connective cyclical flow that changes according to how the situation changes. This is visually represented in the Yin Yang and Ba Gua hexagrams (King Wen)which actually forms a 64-bit algorithm as it's all based on a series of sequential logic gates.

The Ba Gua Hexagrams: 8 across x 8 down = 64b (bits) = 8B (bytes)


It is also the nature of the Art of War. You must be able to constantly adapt and change to outmaneouvre your opponent. You don't need martial arts training to fight an inferior foe... the real art of war is defeating someone who's better than you are!

[Saintly]

that hexagram just waaaaay over my head!

just fight already :P

[i_amtrunks]

You forgot to mention another good attack when your opponent ducks under a punch...

Knee to the face or sternum...

[GoktimusPrime]

It's binary logic - 00010011110100001010011101010001110010

0 = yin, 1 = yang



It's all about what technique to use when, and the timing is often dependent on the situation, which is constantly in flux. So Yin Yang often represents two extreme techniques in fighting...
e.g.:
0 = soft, 1 = hard
0 = high, 1 = low
0 = retreat, 1 = advance
0 = grapple, 1 = strike
0 = close range, 1 = long range
0 = circular, 1 = linear

When should you be 0, when should you be 1? It depends on what the opponent is doing. And another thing that the Yin Yang symbol points out is that in each extreme there is an element of the other. You can be hard with some element of softness (e.g.: Okinawan Goujuu), and soft with some element of hardness (e.g.: qigong).

Quick example, one mistake that a lot of newbs make when they're grappled and/or placed into submission holds is that they hardened/seize up their body and try to flee by moving/pulling away from the grappler... and usually all that does is allow the grappler to tighten their lock! They're often surprised when you show them that counter-grappling usually involves relaxing and softening your body and moving into the grappler rather than away from them.

You forgot to mention another good attack when your opponent ducks under a punch...

Knee to the face or sternum...

That would work too, but dropping onto the vertebrae is easier IMO and harder to counter. If you were to try to knee someone in the face or sternum while they were bobbing under your punch it's not that hard for them to block it - blocking a downward strike to your back while you're leaning forward - I don't see how that's even possible. You'd be better off just tackling/charging the other guy rather than trying to block.