Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

Can would bring my Zangetsu but i think i could get in the shit with the cops..

That's why I like the idea "defend yourself from thugs without becoming a thug." Legally we are permitted to use reasonable force in self-defence. It's when you use unreasonably excessive force that you may find yourself in trouble with the law.

It's also because of this that I have a personal preference for the internal martial arts, due to their more passively defensive nature.

Here's an example with a person demonstrating traditional Aikido:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aicHsMC6rxM
You'll notice that at no point does the defender actually strike his attackers. There are no punches, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, biting etc.; nothing offensive, all defensive. What may appear as strikes to some people are actually pre-emptive blocks. He's not hitting his attackers, but at times he will stick his hand out to obstruct them or to enforce them to fall down - and the only reason why the attackers fall down so hard is because the defender is using his attacker's force against them. The defender is using very little of his own power. The entire essence is about subduing and restraining your attacker, not hitting them.

Tai Chi is another example of a passively defensive martial art. Their push hands exercise is which allows them to practice the principles of redirecting an attacker's force against them.

There are plenty of other passively defensive internal styles and I'd be here forever if I wanted to discuss them all, but I hope that these brief examples give an idea of how the basic concept of passively defensive fighting works.

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Disclaimer: Classification in martial arts, just like classification in many other areas, is highly arbitrary and subjective. In reality all martial arts contain both internal and external elements. It is possible for external martial artists to be passively defensive too (just as it's possible for an internal martial artist to be aggressively offensive). It's really up to how the individual chooses to apply his/her training and techniques.

[kup]

The real way to learn to fight is if you fight somebody who you know is willing to do you harm. Sparing in 'Controlled' environments are too artificial and choreographed to be proper training.

In a real life fight you will not know if your attacker is going to kick, punch, bite or throw himself at you. Although fighting technique does help immensely, you need to know how to implement it almost by instinct rather than choreography (as most dojos teach it) and be able to change and adapt your move based on the split second circumstance.

You can only learn that through real full contact fighting rather than the typical dojo 'I stand 1m apart and pretend to hit you with this move and you pretend defending a second after I do it' controlled environment.

I remember when I was a kid, I decided to do Karate for a few weeks - Boy that was a waste of time and money! All the moves were super artificially choreographed into awkward 'if I move I will trip over my leg' stances with lots of repetitive moves and stances that even as a 12 year old I could see how I could counter them through unorthodox thinking.

When it came to sparing, it was basically how I described it above 'I hit the air in front of you and then you hit the air in front of me' turn based training. I found it utterly ridiculous as there was no hope in hell that the school's method of teaching was going to work in a real life fight since there is no training on proper adaptive fighting and since the same style of training continued to higher belts, it became utterly pointless.

When it dawned on me how ridiculous the whole thing was during a sparing session, I decided to playfully kick 'my opponent' in the ass while he was waiting for a pretend punch. I found it hilarious but the other kid got really upset and almost cried although the kick wasn't hard enough to hurt him. He kept shouting 'Watch the contact! Watch the contact!' and then I knew I should probably quit since this show wasn't as advertised.

[GoktimusPrime]

I fundamentally agree with what you're saying, but at the same time martial arts instructors have a legal duty of care over their students (the same as school teachers). They cannot allow their students to get hurt or sustain injury during the course of training, and must take measures to prevent injury and deal with injury if it occurs.

If an instructor tells two students to free spar and if a student sustains serious injury that requires costly medical attention (e.g. physiotherapy or surgery etc.) then they can make a claim against the martial arts school/instructor. If the instructor took reasonable measures to ensure student safety (e.g.: elicited them to wear protective gear, used mats to fall on etc.), then his/her insurance will cover the cost of the claim. However if it turns out that the instructor did not take reasonable means to ensure student safety, then the insurance company will not cover the cost of the claim. It works the same as other forms of insurance like car insurance. Instructor makes a claim, insurance company investigates claims and either provides or denies cover depending on the findings of their investigation. So instructors are often torn between trying to provide a realistic fight environment, while at the same time trying to keep their students safe from harm.

And yes, I know there are lots of martial arts instructors who DON'T do enough (or anything at all) to ensure student safety, and this is why the cost of insurance premiums for martial arts teachers is always on the rise. (costs which are often passed onto students via costly lesson or membership fees)

you need to know how to implement it almost by instinct rather than choreography (as most dojos teach it) and be able to change and adapt your move based on the split second circumstance

Absolutely right. You should be able to implement your techniques reflexively as if it were second nature -- as you said, instinctively. Qui Gon Jinn described it well in Star Wars Episode I "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." If you need to _think_ about how to counter an attack, then you're going to lose the fight. External martial arts are well known for their explosive ferocity, which is a trademark that distinguishes them from internal styles. And I find it's a common weakness with people who practice internal styles like Tai Chi -- while I really like the internal concepts of passive defence, it's also essential to have an element of explosive ferocity. You need to be like a loaded mousetrap; when someone attacks you you just SNAP with a defence/counter.

Perhaps the most crucial reason why your techniques must be instinctual is because you will be fighting under extreme fear in a real fight. One good way to train for this is to use exercises where you are attacked by surprise. This can be done by having the defender close his/her eyes while the attacker sets themselves up in a completely random position with a punch, kick, elbow, knee, headbutt etc. only a few centimetres from their body. As soon as the defender opens their eyes they MUST counter that attack immediately. You can make it harder by asking the attacker to actually _continue_ their attack as soon as they see the defender open his/her eyes. e.g.: you hold a punch in front of their face and as soon as they open their eyes you move your fist forward and make light contact with their face. It doesn't hurt but it lets them know that they've been hit. The aim of the game becomes to react within a fraction of a second and not get touched. Of course there are many other methods of simulating fear in training, this is just one example.

This article really describes well how fear works in a fight. One good point the article brings up is the importance of controlled breathing in a fight, which is why so many traditional martial arts have controlled breathing exercises (e.g. controlled breathing during practice of forms/patterns, meditation etc.). Controlled breathing is crucial even in other sports like swimming; you don't want your cells starved of oxygen midway in a fight.

When it came to sparing, it was basically how I described it above 'I hit the air in front of you and then you hit the air in front of me' turn based training. I found it utterly ridiculous as there was no hope in hell that the school's method of teaching was going to work in a real life fight since there is no training on proper adaptive fighting and since the same style of training continued to higher belts, it became utterly pointless.

Again, you can't have students actually hitting each other for legal reasons. But you can do other things like have light contact or elicit students to wear protective gear so you can hit harder while minimising the chances of hurting them.

Schools that teach European martial arts like Broadsword and Spanish Rapier Brawling always enforce their students to be covered head to toe in protective gear (and on top of that they wear armour like gauntlets, breastplates, chainmail etc.), even though they train with swords made from paper (like _extremely_ dense paper which has the same mass as a metal sword; believe me, they f***ing hurt!) or rotand and not live blades.

When it dawned on me how ridiculous the whole thing was during a sparing session, I decided to playfully kick 'my opponent' in the ass while he was waiting for a pretend punch. I found it hilarious but the other kid got really upset and almost cried although the kick wasn't hard enough to hurt him. He kept shouting 'Watch the contact! Watch the contact!' and then I knew I should probably quit since this show wasn't as advertised.

Mmm... yeah. Another problem that some schools have is conditioning students to take hits. In a real fight you're going to be hit and it's something you have to be prepared for. There are conditioning exercises that can harden your body up. e.g.: Karate practitioners often slam their arms and legs against each other, or lightly punch themselves in the guts as they do push-ups. Practitioners of martial arts that involve lots of falling like Jujutsu, Aikido etc. are naturally hardened from all the times they keep falling down on mats. It's the same concept as rugby players who have really good endurance because they get tackled a lot.