Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

You mean there are movies out there that do not accurately reflect conventional wisdom. I thought Hollywood was an honest industry. This changes everything

I know! At least we can trust that the Internet will never lie to us! *hugs computer*

Kung-Fu Kid just doesn't have the same ring to it.

So call it something else. Or - here's an idea - make the characters use Karate!!

A lot of the old Kungfu movies in the 70s had billings with Karate on them. Was just the fad at the time i guess.

It was a different time because until Bruce Lee came along, most Western audiences were rather ignorant of Chinese martial arts. This was partially due to entrenched racism in the Chinese community with many teachers who refused to teach Kung Fu to non-Chinese students. Bruce Lee was the first to begin teaching Chinese martial arts to blacks, whites... anyone who wanted to learn. IMO that was Lee's greatest legacy. Unfortunately there are still a small number of Kung Fu teachers who continue to refuse to teach non-Asians (sigh). Karate was already quite well known by because of one word: Elvis.

They are marketing it as a remake of a popular movie from the 80's. If they didn't then it wouldn't of attracted anywhere near the attention it got. I'm guessing they felt Joe Public really wouldn't be bothered by that fact.

Karate is definitely more widely known amongst Western audiences than Kung Fu - in Australia the most commonly practised martial art style is Gokanryu Karate. I get that... so with that rationale, why not make the movie based on Karate?

My guess is that this movie will elicit one of the following reactions from audiences in regards to the martial arts:
+ Perpetuating ignorance in allowing people to believe that Karate and Kung Fu are "the same thing."
+ Confounding people with some knowledge of Karate who are wondering why the moves look like stylised Kung Fu.
+ Confounding people with some knowledge of Kung Fu who are wondering why the characters are using stylised Kung Fu in a movie entitled "The Karate Kid."

I'm not comfortable with the excuse of "Most people won't know the difference, so let's run with it." That'd be like if a Transformer movie had an entirely GOBOT cast with the same excuse. Cos it'd probably work - Joe Average probably wouldn't honestly know the difference between Bumblebee and Scooter (at least, not prior to 2007). You can just imagine the fan reaction to that!

Suddenly Drift doesn't seem so bad...

[Bartrim]

I saw a doco ages ago that said something about even though he is fluent in several styles of fighting Kung Fu is his first (or favoured) discipline... I think, it was ages ago.

But seriously Gok let it slide man. I could bitch and moan about the errors in "The Perfect Storm" until your ears bleed but it's a movie so I let it slide.

[5FDP]

But seriously Gok let it slide man. I could bitch and moan about the errors in "The Perfect Storm" until your ears bleed but it's a movie so I let it slide.

Pfft... next you'll try to convince everyone that E.T. wasn't based on a true story

[Bartrim]

Pfft... next you'll try to convince everyone that E.T. wasn't based on a true story

What it isn't true?

[GoktimusPrime]

But seriously Gok let it slide man. I could bitch and moan about the errors in "The Perfect Storm" until your ears bleed but it's a movie so I let it slide.

I already suspend a LOT of disbelief in terms of the so-called "martial arts" that they use in movies - because most of the time, the "martial arts" in martial arts movies are anything but. Most of the more realistic martial arts are often seen in non-martial arts movies like The Last of the Mohicans and even The Lord of the Rings (ignoring stuff like magic and super-human moves like Legolas jumping all over Oliphants ). So I never watch a 'martial arts' movie expecting to see any remotely realistic martial arts. But I accept that it's part of the genre -- the objective is entertainment, and acrobatic and gymnastic over-stylised moves are more interesting to watch to the Joe-average movie goer I guess.

But even with that... one would expect a movie called "Karate Kid" to feature Karate. I haven't seen The Perfect Storm -- but I assume there's a storm in it somewhere right? Imagine if the movie didn't feature a storm and instead focused on some other meteorological phenomenon like... spooky overcast skies or clear fine weather.

It's the misleading nature of the title that bothers me. Again, the Michael Bay TF films may not be cinematic masterpieces, but at least they feature Transformers in them (Autobots, Decepticons - warring etc.). Some people might not like the way the films portray the Transformers, but at least they're there! Imagine if they made movies called "Transformers" and all they featured were My Little Pony... imagine the fan rage!

[GoktimusPrime]

Demonac directed me to this great video -- from Penn & Teller's B.S. episode on Martial Arts. It pretty much sums up a lot of the garbage that's floating around martial arts today. Enjoy.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_3BSk2TbK4
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB3y10i_T9E
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggroj7w9J5k

Parental Advisory: Videos contain coarse language, adult themes and violence.

[GoktimusPrime]

Gah, unfortunately YouTube's taken those videos down now and I can't find them on another site. I hope folks were able to watch them before they were removed.

Edit: For those who didn't see the videos, here's a brief summary on a few of the highlights from the show. Penn and Teller's BS! is of course about skeptics debunking myths, in this case, the myths of martial arts as a means of self defence. This isn't to say that martial arts are inherently useless for self defence, but unfortunately the way that martial arts are often taught in many schools today - they have become ineffectual. In short, a lot of people don't know how to teach martial arts properly as a means of self defence, and thus they often become rather useless. Those of us who've been in the game long enough know that it's actually hard to find a good martial arts school.

Anyway, the show looks at three different kinds of martial arts:
1: traditional martial arts
2: mystical martial arts
3: beat the living excrement out of you martial arts
The found three rather dodgy instructors to prove their point - and they also found one competent instructor who acted as the martial arts skeptic (i.e. voice of reason ).

The traditionalist was a Karate teacher who held some world record for board breaking, which he claimed came from his Chi power. They debunked that and explained the science behind board breaking and demonstrated how simple it was to do it. The MA skeptic had his wife break a board with the palm of her hand and Teller easily broke a board too. The Karate teacher also admitted that a lot of the techniques he teaches is "fantasy fighting" -- i.e. impractical for self defence, but he teaches them to build confidence. Penn and Teller said that this is dangerous bulldust, and I agree... because you're giving students false confidence. Yes, having confidence is really important and a good thing to teach... but you should teach it by actually making your students competent rather than letting them pretend that they can fight and letting them believe in a fantasy. Cos that fantasy belief can get them hurt or killed in a fight. As I've often said, in our training we should _always_ assume that our attacker(s) is/are stronger, faster and better than we are. It is pointless to assume anything else.

The mystic was a Chi Kung teacher - and you can see that part of the video here. Now I like internal martial arts, I like Chi Kung... I'd _like_ to say that what this lady is teaching is fake bollocks, but unfortunately the reality is:
a/ There are a LOT of internal martial arts school like this. Many who believe they can fight without making physical contact. These people _literally_ believe in using something like the Force from Star Wars. And it's pointless trying to argue and rationalise with these people because it's like trying to argue with some really deeply fundamentally religious person -- they always have some pseudo-logical excuse that makes perfect sense to them but you can't argue against. The excuses are of course, complete bollocks, but they just present it in a way where you can't counter them. e.g. "I couldn't possibly show you my power because then I'd kill you." <--I kid you not, I've had people say this to me! Unless I'm willing to actually try and seriously injure him or kill him (in which case I'd be arrested for assault or murder) then I can't argue against these people!
b/ This hippie style of Chi Kung is actually nothing new, and are probably as old as the more practical schools of Chi Kung and Tai Chi. A lot these Chi Kung and Tai Chi schools were formed by rich aristocrats in ancient China who marveled at the power of martial arts practised by warriors, monks and even commoners - and wanted to have this power too. But they didn't want to... ya know, break a sweat or damage a fingernail. So they pretty much created this fantastic idea of "Chi Kung" where they would shove each other about with their imaginary Force Powers, then link it with Chinese medicine (trying to use science to explain the supernatural).

I divide internal martial arts into 3 different categories:
1/ Fighting styles: e.g. Yang Tai chi, Baguazhang, Jujutsu, Hapkido etc.
2/ Holistic health styles: e.g. Tai Chi - some styles of Tai Chi are only practised for health, like Yoga, and don't have practical fight apps.
3/ Mystical styles: like the stuff shown in Penn and Teller. And Star Wars. But ya know, Star Wars is cool (cos Jedi are able to back up their weird beliefs with this thing called a lightsabre!).

This lady believes that she can actually talk to her organs, and that her organs actually use language to communicate with her. Wow... her kidneys speak English! Or maybe they speak Rygidian, which coincidentally is exactly the same as English.

The beat the living f*** out of you guy is someone who teaches their own modern form of martial arts. This guy loves teaching students LETHAL moves and advocates the use of lethal unarmed force as a means of self defence! Penn asked the teacher how he'd feel if any of his students killed someone with the techniques he's taught them, and he said, "I'd feel pretty good," because he believes that you should do ANYTHING to defend yourself. The show then pointed out that in the United States (as in Australia), you're only allowed to use reasonable force in self defence, in the context of the assault. Teaching his students such excessively lethal force can get them charged with manslaughter (the skeptic pointed out that he's seen some martial arts schools which teach their students to break an attacker's neck _after_ they've been subdued, which is murder). The skeptic pointed out that the problem with people who teach lethal moves is that they automatically assume that their students are always the victims and are innocent... never perpetrators.

This goes back to what I was talking about before about teachers needing to exercise discretion in whom they choose as students, and that there are certain members of society who should _never_ be taught martial arts. But unfortunately a lot of schools don't discern... as long as you pay your membership and lesson fees, they'll teach you.

Penn then said that if you're going to have this attitude that lethal force is perfectly acceptable for self defence, then there's a far easier and cheaper alternative to learning martial arts -- buy a gun! Morally and legally it equates to nearly the same thing (i.e. you are defending yourself with lethal force, and you will be arrested!)

So of course, this goes into a point that when learning self defence, you need to be able to apply it in a legally acceptable way - i.e. that you are only using enough force to defend yourself.

[Tabias Prime]

The traditionalist was a Karate teacher who held some world record for board breaking, which he claimed came from his Chi power. They debunked that and explained the science behind board breaking and demonstrated how simple it was to do it. The MA skeptic had his wife break a board with the palm of her hand and Teller easily broke a board too. The Karate teacher also admitted that a lot of the techniques he teaches is "fantasy fighting" -- i.e. impractical for self defence, but he teaches them to build confidence. Penn and Teller said that this is dangerous bulldust, and I agree... because you're giving students false confidence. Yes, having confidence is really important and a good thing to teach... but you should teach it by actually making your students competent rather than letting them pretend that they can fight and letting them believe in a fantasy. Cos that fantasy belief can get them hurt or killed in a fight. As I've often said, in our training we should _always_ assume that our attacker(s) is/are stronger, faster and better than we are. It is pointless to assume anything else.

I never understood the whole breaking wood thing, I have never heard of a piece of wood attacking someone and what did the piece of wood ever do to anyone....

My brother taught the GKR form of karate and the way general get people in is cold canvas an any until they meet their quota, Its kind of like J.Ws of the martial arts....

With the whole Karate Kid issue, Could they not of used the same story but set it in Japan instead of china, that way there would be no confusion
in regards to the whole karate/kung fu issue...

[GoktimusPrime]

I never understood the whole breaking wood thing, I have never heard of a piece of wood attacking someone and what did the piece of wood ever do to anyone....

Heh, yeah. My favourite line from Karate Kid II is:
Daniel: "Do you think you could break a log like that?"
Miyagi: "Don't know. Never been attacked by tree."

I also once saw a newspaper cartoon where there's a Dojo full of Karate students, and outside the window is a UFO that's landed and the aliens coming out to attack are made of planks of wood. ;D

With the whole Karate Kid issue, Could they not of used the same story but set it in Japan instead of china, that way there would be no confusion
in regards to the whole karate/kung fu issue...

I don't mind the story being set in China, cos:
a) The original Karate Kid wasn't set in Japan, it was set in America.
b) Karate originated from Okinawa, not Japan. And in the original Karate Kid movies, Miyagi was an American of Okinawan (not Japanese) descent and instructed Daniel in Okinawan (not Japanese) Karate. There is a subtle but distinct differnce between Okinawan and Japanese Karate (e.g. Okinawan Karate has tighter blocks and isn't as rigid and jarring as Japanese Karate -- it's more similar to Fujian Kung Fu from which Karate was originally derived from).

I'm just unhappy that a movie called "Karate Kid" is completely devoid of any Karate.

[Tabias Prime]

I don't mind the story being set in China, cos:
a) The original Karate Kid wasn't set in Japan, it was set in America.
b) Karate originated from Okinawa, not Japan. And in the original Karate Kid movies, Miyagi was an American of Okinawan (not Japanese) descent and instructed Daniel in Okinawan (not Japanese) Karate. There is a subtle but distinct differnce between Okinawan and Japanese Karate (e.g. Okinawan Karate has tighter blocks and isn't as rigid and jarring as Japanese Karate -- it's more similar to Fujian Kung Fu from which Karate was originally derived from).

I'm just unhappy that a movie called "Karate Kid" is completely devoid of any Karate.

Agreed

Sorry my bad its been a while since I've seen any of the K.K movies...