Martial arts discussion thread

[Hot Rodimus]

Sorry Gok but I read your posts in this thread and I can't help but think your someone who reads a little bit too much into the theory of things and idolises the 'old masters'.
In reality it is better to practise simple techniques as your fine motor skills rapidly get thrown out the window and all your fancy techniques that have been practised with a compliant partner (most schools are guilty of this as are most demonstrations on youtube and ones shown in this thread) do not work.
You were reluctant to answer if you had ever been in a real fight earlier, if you have you will know this to be true, hence why a lot of 'martial artists' or 'blackbelts' get snotted in a real fight. They have either never been exposed to real violence before or not trained for it or they are ineffectual as there perfectly practised roundhouse punch or spinning dragon magic kick with no shadow didn't turn into the fight stopper like it did in the dojo/kwoon.
A lot of what you type has sound principles as I have read a lot of this before but instead of taking other peoples words as gospel broaden your horizons and expose yourself to other styles and training so you can actually comment on it from experience. You bag out some styles for being 'sport' styles etc but in reality a lot of these guys who train in these styles are better equiped for a real fight than you and your traditional stylist practitioners.
Just wondering how long you have been training for?
Considering you can spar with your arms tied behind your back and with a blindfold you must be impressive, regardless of wether it is with white belts or not....though then again if I was a white belt again (something which has been the case many times over the years as I expose myself to different styles) I would have found this rather insulting.
Looking forward to chatting with you about this.

[Bartrim]

This is an interesting point that Hot Rodimus makes. When I first looked into starting martial arts I really wanted to learn one specific discipline, but due to lack of schools in Ulladulla I had to study KRMAS. I was a little bit hesitant at first as although it is mainly a type of karate (I'm not sure of what style yet as I haven't asked my instructor) it also incorporates other disciplines. Now after going for 6 weeks this is now my preference as it is a very practical system that we learn. My instructor demonstrated this last night. He got mysef and several other late 20's-early 30's in the class who have had some real fight experience. (By real I mean out a pub real) He then gave us a variety of (training) weapons and asked as to attack as best we could. I gave my instructor every thing I had and he took me out with ease, sorta embarresed that I squealed like a girl too

[Hot Rodimus]

Bartrim thanks as you sort of reinforce one of the points I was making.
No one style covers everything, there are great striking arts, great grappling arts and great weapon styles but no one particular style contains everything.
While it is a sport MMA has really put it into the spotlight for martial artists that striking and grappling skills are necessary. Don't believe me? hop on youtube or search the net for real fight footage, you will almost always see that a real fight contains elements of both striking and grappling.
Not all schools can offer a syllabus that incorporates grappling and striking techniques especially if they are more 'traditional' schools so if you have the time join another school that does offer the component that is missing.
But the most important thing is how do you train your techniques? If it is with compliant partners and bouncy bouncy touch sparring (think NAS tournaments, and taekwondo to generalise) then you are wasting your time. Practising technique with non compliant partners and Pad work/bag work and controlled sparring with contact is essential....... or you could just do Tai Chi instead and tell everyone you are a martial artist lol

Good to hear you are training Bartrim, your style actually sounds interesting would love to hear more about it. I read in an earlier post about you being nervous before starting, happens to me too every time I try a new school. I am starting boxing at a well known gym next week, I know how to box and have done a fair bit of Muay Thai but I still get a butterfly in the tummy feeling lol.But you have done the hardest part I reckon which is the initial commitment. Good work!

[Hot Rodimus]

Just had a look at your style Bartrim on this website
http://www.krmas.com.au/karate.html

I have never heard of it before but looks pretty good to me mate. The Karate they teach is freestyle karate from the sounds of it which can be a very good system. Just depends on what elements are incorporated from each style and how it is trained.

If they also teach some of the other styles like Muay Thai and MMA at the location you train at I think you should try those out too after you feel comfortable with the Karate and have a good base set of skills.

[Bartrim]

Thanks Hot Rodimus. It is a great style and I really enjoy it. In the 6 weeks I've been going we have done all sorts of striking (punching, knees, kicking) and last night we did hip throws. Again I like how practical it is. While we learn techniques we partner up with someone our own size, but once we learn the techniques we switch partners around to learn about leverage and throwing people of different shapes and sizes. I also questioned my sensei last night because he was explaining about how all the moves in our kata including the prep are actual fighting moves. One movement we do is an eye gouge. I questioned the honour of using an eye gouge. He told me that while it wasn't honourable KRMAS concentrates on practicality and if you ever get into a situation where you need to use the techniques chances are your opponent wont exactly to be concerned with honourable fighting techniques.

[Hot Rodimus]

sounds good Bartrim, an instructor who will explain things like yours does is a good sign also if you question things your instructor should be able to explain the principles or reasoning behind it instead of not knowing or saying something like "that is how the masters did it".

Totally agree with using things like eye gouges not that I ever have. If you train to use it effectively then it can be a great weapon to have in your arsenal. It is not something I have trained much to do, we did learn them when I did wing chun years ago but to me it was hard to train as I prefer other strikes. He is spot on the money about honour having nothing to do with it too, honour really has nothing to do with fighting once the actual fight begins.

Sounds like you have got a good school, thank god you didn't have a GKR dojo near you, those guys are almost everywhere and are the Amway of Martial Arts....but I better not get started on that lol.

[GoktimusPrime]

While we learn techniques we partner up with someone our own size, but once we learn the techniques we switch partners around to learn about leverage and throwing people of different shapes and sizes.

That's good. It's good to always practice with different people, not just because of different size but also different speed, tempo etc. Even in the same style/school everyone fights differently; I find fighting forms are like handwriting - it's unique to each individual and no two are exactly identical. Having two people from the same school trained in the same style is like watching two people write the same text in the same language... but the actual handwriting itself is uniquely distinct.

I also questioned my sensei last night because he was explaining about how all the moves in our kata including the prep are actual fighting moves. One movement we do is an eye gouge. I questioned the honour of using an eye gouge. He told me that while it wasn't honourable KRMAS concentrates on practicality and if you ever get into a situation where you need to use the techniques chances are your opponent wont exactly to be concerned with honourable fighting techniques.

Very true.

And I suppose this is where some of my skepticism about sport fighting comes from because when you fight as a sport you are fighting within set conditions and set rules; whereas when training to fight for self defence we should never assume that anything will be set. For example one of the single most common mistakes I experience with sport fighters is that they often leave their groin exposed, and I've even met some sport fighters who outright REFUSE to guard their groin (instead they just demand that I don't attack there) - insisting that it's a "dog" move. Of course it's a dog move... but as your sensei says, we should never assume that our opponent carries a sense of honour that prevents them from using cheap moves.

My question about the eye gouge would be that it seems to me to be more of a fine motor skill technique, which as Hot Rodimus pointed out before, is impractical in a real fight where you're scared poopless. Furthermore, I've heard people say that eye gouging is overrated as even dogs will continue fighting with eyes bitten out. But I suppose it all depends on the exact scenario and situation too... <shrugs>

I am probably coming across as arrogant or a hater of traditional styles.....I don't intend for this to happen

I'm glad you cleared it up. And I'm sure I sometimes come across as an arrogant hater of modern styles too - which isn't my intention either.

but from my real life experiences my opinions differ greatly from what has been posted by others and as this is a 'forum' I thought I would throw my two cents in.

We're all entitled to our own preferences and opinions. You're right about me having a greater theoretical knowledge of martial arts than a practical one though. I recognise this as a weakness of mine and I do definitely plan on changing this.

If there's anyone in Western Sydney willing to get together on a casual basis for some friendly training, I'd be up for it. I have all kinds of equipment to keep it safe. All styles and levels of experience welcome of course... we are all students of the martial arts.

[GoktimusPrime]

Sorry Gok but I read your posts in this thread and I can't help but think your someone who reads a little bit too much into the theory of things and idolises the 'old masters'.

I have a preference for traditional styles for reasons I've mentioned before.

In reality it is better to practise simple techniques as your fine motor skills rapidly get thrown out the window and all your fancy techniques that have been practised with a compliant partner (most schools are guilty of this as are most demonstrations on youtube and ones shown in this thread) do not work.

I absolutely agree.

The difference between training and a real fight is fear. There is no fear in training because you know you're in a safe environment. And you _will_ be scared in a real fight (unless you're incredibly brave or stupid, and Aristotle did imply that there's little difference between the two ). And studies show that one thing that occurs when you're afraid is that you LOSE your fine motor skills. Hence why learning fine motor skills for self defence is bollocks. However studies also show that gross motor skills are optimised when you're afraid; so it makes more sense to learn techniques that work on gross motor skills instead.

So I'm in complete agreement with you there.

You were reluctant to answer if you had ever been in a real fight earlier, if you have you will know this to be true, hence why a lot of 'martial artists' or 'blackbelts' get snotted in a real fight. They have either never been exposed to real violence before or not trained for it or they are ineffectual as there perfectly practised roundhouse punch or spinning dragon magic kick with no shadow didn't turn into the fight stopper like it did in the dojo/kwoon.

90% of a fight is psychological and I find a lot of competent fighters actually avoid getting into fights rather than experiencing them. I agree that a lot of well trained martial artists _do_ get creamed in real fights. This would be, as you've implied, due to ineffectual training.

A lot of what you type has sound principles as I have read a lot of this before but instead of taking other peoples words as gospel broaden your horizons and expose yourself to other styles and training so you can actually comment on it from experience. You bag out some styles for being 'sport' styles etc but in reality a lot of these guys who train in these styles are better equiped for a real fight than you and your traditional stylist practitioners.

I don't think I ever "bagged" out sport styles. I simply said that I'm skeptical for reasons that I've mentioned before.

But I have repeatedly said time and time again that ultimately the best style is the style that WORKS for you - even if it's a sport style. And I have also said that sometimes a practitioner of a sport style CAN be a better fighter than someone from a more traditional background.

A classic example would be Mohammed Ali and Bruce Lee. Mohammed Ali practised modern boxing, what I consider to be a sport style. Bruce Lee's background was in Kung Fu and he developed Jeet Kune Do, what might be considered to be traditional. But if you put Mohammed Ali and Bruce Lee - in their prime - in a cage fight, I would put my money on Mohammed Ali.

Mohammed Ali was a bloody fantastic fighter who actually understood and executed the concepts of traditional martial arts BETTER than a lot of traditionalists; i.e. "float like a butterfly sting like a bee" = you need to be hard and soft = yin and yang. For all of Bruce Lee's training in traditional styles he was - at best - a mediocre fighter.

So while I have a preference for traditional styles, please don't think that it means that I therefore disregard anyone who practises sport styles.

I've said this before too - the important question is NOT "what style do you do?" but "Can you fight?"

Just wondering how long you have been training for?
Considering you can spar with your arms tied behind your back and with a blindfold you must be impressive,

No, I've never said I was impressive. I just happened to be sparring against a very ineffectual opponent at the time.

But the most important thing is how do you train your techniques? If it is with compliant partners and bouncy bouncy touch sparring (think NAS tournaments, and taekwondo to generalise) then you are wasting your time. Practising technique with non compliant partners and Pad work/bag work and controlled sparring with contact is essential.......

Absolutely agree. I dislike training with overly compliant partners. Your partner needs to compliant enough to keep your training safe - but not too compliant that they're letting you win or not providing a realistic challenge.

or you could just do Tai Chi instead and tell everyone you are a martial artist lol

That's an unfair generalisation.

First of all, there are many styles of Tai Chi - some are usable in fighting, some aren't. Secondly, even with the fighting styles of Tai Chi - you have competent practitioners and not so competent practitioners.

As someone once said to me, "The individual matters more than the style."

[Hot Rodimus]

I am confused Gok, or it could be my ignorance of Tai Chi, I have heard of a few styles but never really seen much more than people practising flowerery moves in the air.
How is this going to be of use? Yes most of the moves performed in Tai Chi are actual combative techniques and if you really analyse them you can find brutal techniques that eyegouge twist necks etc but it lacks real training methodologies
I do believe that any style trained in the 'right way' can work or be adapted to work in real fight situations. I am not saying your wrong but I have never seen tai chi practitioners hit pads or spar etc. I do profess ignorance when it comes to Tai Chi but I would be suprised if it was effective.

I would also be interested if anyone has clips off youtube of martial arts working in real fights. Whenever I have seen footage of traditional martial artists spar with hard contact or get in a real fight it always ends up looking like kick boxing or boxing.

I am probably coming across as arrogant or a hater of traditional styles ( I have trained in Shito Ryu Karate,Wing Chun, Goju Karate in the past and had a great time doing so.). I don't intend for this to happen but from my real life experiences my opinions differ greatly from what has been posted by others and as this is a 'forum' I thought I would throw my two cents in.

[Hot Rodimus]

How long have you been training Gok?