Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

i didn,t say traditional martial arts are ineffective, i said in an earlier post that any style can be made to work if trained right, which is my point. it is pretty fair to say alot of traditional schools dont train in a way that prepares students for real violence. and yes some sport styles are guilty of this to but it would be a minority as their very nature dictates students learn to hit properly, get hit and lots of hard sparring.

That may be in your observation but not in mine. In my observation I find more traditional schools better train their students for actual fighting compared to sport fighting schools which seem more oriented at scoring points and impressing judges. But that's just my observation.

I think it's fair to say that there are plenty of good and bad schools of both traditional and sporting sorts, and it seems that you've happened to come across more good sport schools and I've happened to come across more good traditional schools. The ratio between good and bad traditional and sport schools may vary depending on where you live. For example when I was in China I travelled to Foshan, a place reknowned for producing famous Kung Fu practitioners like Yip Man and Huang Feihong - and I observed a demonstration at a school there... and it was just rubbish. The demonstration was supposed to be Hongjia Kung Fu, but instead of looking like this it looked like this:



...yeah, cos that's gonna be really useful in a fight... </sarcasm>

i agree that traditional styles would have been very effective back in the day but few if any train like they did back then. they werent worried about law suits from students they were worr about dieing and the training would have been gruelling.

Teaching methods have changed, but that's not always a bad thing. You're right about training being far more gruelling in the old days - especially in temples like Shaolin. Cos when you're a full time celebate monk you have NO life outside the temple. But for people with commitments to family, study, work etc., such sadistic methods of training just aren't practical in the modern age. Also - in places like the Shaolin Temple, the monks also spend a lot of time healing each other as well.

A lot of modern age equipment and training techniques can be used quite effectively in traditional training... like velcro strap-on wrist/ankle weights or the incorporation of plyometrics etc. Martial arts - especially the external styles - have always had plyometric movements; but modern sport science has given us a better understanding of how it works and how to better train in it.

now with the commercialisation of martial arts and it becomming a busiess ppl are more likely to make things easier to retain students and boost revenue but preach they teach the methods of old.

Yeah, these are the "McDojos" that's been discussed before. (-_-) And ya know, that Kung Fu demonstration I saw in China was commercialised too... it was all acrobatic showmanship to attract tourists. But I'm sure you can appreciate that a commercialised martial art is not exactly an authentic representation of that art.

[Hot Rodimus]

we are going to agree to disagree I think Gok. You love traditional styles and the mystery and mysticism and smoke and mirrors that surround them. I have come to appreciate more realistic methods of protecting myself based on real life experiences.
What is the most realistic form of fighting these days? MMA surely, yeah it is a sport but it is also the closest thing you can get to a street fight without being in one.
What styles do these guys train in? Not traiditonal arts, even Machido who states he does Karate doesn't actually do Karate even though he markets it like that for his family business.
How come we have never seen any traditional stylists do well in them?
I am sure you have an answer for this.
Anyway I am tired of going round in circles, I never intended this to be a traidtional vs sport/modern arguement, merely that you should base your opinions on many different experiences instead of theory and reciting thousands of words of text that I have already read before in other media.
But in all honesty I wish you good luck with your training, I admire anyone who gets off their but and trains, I also hope that if you ever have to protect yourself or a loved one your training will be of use (though I pray that never eventuates, for you or anyone else here).

[GoktimusPrime]

we are going to agree to disagree I think Gok. You love traditional styles and the mystery and mysticism and smoke and mirrors that surround them. I have come to appreciate more realistic methods of protecting myself based on real life experiences.

But I've REPEATEDLY harped on about how much I hate the "mysticism" and "smoke and mirrors" as well as unrealistic methods in martial arts. And yes, there are a lot of traditionalists who go on about the mysticism and stuff, and I don't agree with their approach at all.

Mind you, it doesn't necessarily mean that the "mystical" explanations are 'wrong'... sometimes they can be when people get a bit too deep into the spiritualism. You have to understand that a lot of ancient literature on martial arts was written before the advent of modern science. I prefer to think of martial arts in modern scientific terms.

e.g.
external "chi" = biomechanics and principles of physics (e.g. leverage, acceleration, force, torque etc.)
internal "chi" = metabolism (e.g. adenine triphosphate, mitochondria, adrenaline etc.)

A lot of these mystical terms are based on the ancient Asian understanding of medicine and science, for example modern medicine sees the human body as a series of systems whereas Chinese medicine divides into meridians. Chinese medicine may be more holistic but it's not necessarily outright incorrect. Asian medicine tends deal with looking after overall wellbeing whereas modern Western medicine looks at treating symptoms and curing diseases when they occur.

What is the most realistic form of fighting these days? MMA surely, yeah it is a sport but it is also the closest thing you can get to a street fight without being in one.

Or perhaps the style that works for you. If I train in a traditional style and it _works_ for me in a fight... then why tell me not to use it? Likewise if someone did a sport style and it works for them, then what right does anyone have to tell them to not do it?? I wouldn't.

How come we have never seen any traditional stylists do well in them?
I am sure you have an answer for this.

You do know that traditional martial arts - in their authentic form - aren't used in competitions right? Only modified martial arts are used in competitions.

Anyway I am tired of going round in circles, I never intended this to be a traidtional vs sport/modern arguement, merely that you should base your opinions on many different experiences instead of theory and reciting thousands of words of text that I have already read before in other media.

We've always tried to be tolerant of different styles on this thread - hence why I always say that the best style is that one that works for you. I've said this over and over again to try and be inclusive all all styles and forms of martial arts.

While I have a personal preference for traditional arts, it doesn't mean that therefore I will blindly state that sport styles cannot work, because clearly modern arts have produced some good fighters such as Mohammed Ali, Cung Le and of course, Chuck Norris. Likewise a person who has a strong personal preference for sport styles ought not go around putting down traditional arts either, because the traditional arts have produced good fighters too, such as Huang Feihong, Huo Yuanjia, Miyamoto Musashi, Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Hannibal Barca, Saito Hajime, William Wallace, Spartacus, Leonidas I and so on. (and of course, the countless number of warriors and soldiers who fought in pre-automatic machine gun warfare)

But in all honesty I wish you good luck with your training, I admire anyone who gets off their but and trains, I also hope that if you ever have to protect yourself or a loved one your training will be of use (though I pray that never eventuates, for you or anyone else here).

Well I know my style works for me so I'll continue practising it, thank you very much. And you should definitely continue practising what works for you and I also hope that it will keep you safe.

[5FDP]

Hit the showers you two

[Bartrim]

Hit the showers you two

I thought knuckle push ups would be in order

[Lint]

What is the most realistic form of fighting these days? MMA surely, yeah it is a sport but it is also the closest thing you can get to a street fight without being in one.

I'm not bagging MMA, but some decent weapons skills (defending against and disarming) and learning to cope with multiple opponents would be quintessential to participating in a street fight. As far as I know MMA doesn't give you any tutelage for this because it is a sport but any good self-defense school would.

Don't get me wrong, someone who practices MMA would have the advantage in a punch up since you are trained to take and deliver punishment but as soon as weapons or multiple opponents are involved (typical in a street fight) it becomes a whole new ball game.

[GoktimusPrime]

Don't get me wrong, someone who practices MMA would have the advantage in a punch up since you are trained to take and deliver punishment but as soon as weapons or multiple opponents are involved (typical in a street fight) it becomes a whole new ball game.

Traditional arts also have a lot of conditioning exercises for building endurance such as:
* jabbing palms and fingers at a gravel-filled bag (known as Iron Palm or Iron Hand)
* bumping limbs against teach other (known as "knocking")
* gradual striking of parts of the body

Here are some videos showing conditioning exercises to harden parts of the body:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fKSoB2GByM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poN-ExZRQxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9NzBciths

[Hot Rodimus]

lol much to say but I am going to stay in the shower

[GoktimusPrime]

Some of what's demonstrated in the third video are more parlour tricks than conditioning exercises. You just need to be able to sift through the relevant stuff away from the 'smoke and mirrors.'

See the previous posts regarding "Penn & Teller's Bullshit!: Martial Arts" in:
Post 106
Post 107
Post 108
Post 111

That's a great episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit! which goes about debunking a lot of the myths and mysticism surrounding martial arts.

[Hot Rodimus]

I'm not bagging MMA, but some decent weapons skills (defending against and disarming) and learning to cope with multiple opponents would be quintessential to participating in a street fight. As far as I know MMA doesn't give you any tutelage for this because it is a sport but any good self-defense school would.

Don't get me wrong, someone who practices MMA would have the advantage in a punch up since you are trained to take and deliver punishment but as soon as weapons or multiple opponents are involved (typical in a street fight) it becomes a whole new ball game.

I am in total agreance with what you have said.