Martial arts discussion thread

[5FDP]

Come train with me Gok... I'll learn ya

[GoktimusPrime]

You didn't answer :P why do YOU want to learn to 'fight'?

Because that's what I enjoy learning in martial arts. It's a personal preference thing. It's like asking someone "Why do you enjoy entering tournaments?" or "Why do you enjoy keeping your toys MISB?"

I enjoy opening my toys and playing with them because I find it fun/enjoyable. Likewise I find it martial arts enjoyable when it's directly applicable to fighting/self defence. I'm not trying to put down other people's preferences in MAs by saying this... but it's my personal preference.

I agree with KalEl 100%. If you want to learn how to fight and be challenged so you don’t spar one handed (which despite how you might explain it to your training partner is very disrespectful regardless of their skill) then take up Muay Thai or MMA.

We have established a friendly rapport from previous lessons (where we've often chatted during breaks or before/after lessons), so he wasn't upset by it. He was MUCH more upset by me tapping him. And as I'm sure you know, when you fight/spar, you just go off automatic instinct. It's all well and good for people to say "no contact," but ultimately I'm just gonna do what I'm trained to do - as I'm sure you (and everyone else here) would do as well.

A traditional MA is most always geared to the student who is a bit of a romantic and wants to learn the art of “insert name here” as it has been passed down from the mystical hands of Master whoever or they are looking for something structured with clearly defined goals/rewards (think coloured belts).

I want to learn what works. I will admit that I have a preference for TMAs because it has a history of being demonstrated to work, but tbh if I found a Mod MA school that worked I'd train with them. There are plenty of TMA schools that don't effectively teach self defence too; the individual teacher/school matters more than the style.

Another reality is that TMA schools have to try and retain students so making it ‘easy’ or less contact orientated helps attract and retain students while operating under the guise of teaching effective self-defense.

Yeah, that's a fair point. TMA classes are incredibly tiny compared to Mod MA classes. When I did Chen Tai Chi, toward the end if we were lucky to have 3 people in the class. TMAs seem to lack the "glamour appeal" of some Mod MAs because we don't do competitions, we don't have fancy ceremonies (we never bowed at anyone -- just called the teacher by his first name; he _refused_ to be called "Shifu" and insisted on being treated as a "learned equal")... our school had a uniform but nobody ever wore it. We didn't have coloured belts/sashes, no grades, no tests... just pure training. Eventually class numbers just kept dwindling so yeah... now those classes no longer run and I'm looking for a new school. Maybe teaching pure Traditional MAs just isn't commercially viable in Australia these days.

My eyes were truly opened the first time I took up Muay Thai, those guys train hard, teach effective, simple, easily learnt techniques and have plenty of contact. Heck you even cop a beating holding the pads for your training partner a lot of the time.

That's the way training should be! Every hit should be aimed at issuing/delivering power _through_ the target and not at it! (and the pad holders should be standing in proper stances to absorb the power of the hits - it also helps teach you how to hold your stances while you're being pummeled). As I've mentioned before, I have tried MT and MMA and I personally found them to be disappointing. Perhaps it's just the schools (maybe I've yet to find a good MT and MMA school). I'd like to really try Muay Boran -- the traditional/ancient Thai martial art that Muay Thai is derived from! I've heard about it, but I've never seen it for myself IRL! I've been told that they use more wider and solid stances (like in other TMAs) compared to the higher up stances of MT.

I was training with a local MMA/Kung Fu school for a while, but then they actually closed shop and nicked off. I asked one of the neighbouring business operators what happened to them, and they told me that they'd stopped paying their rent and just did a runner!

You keep stating what you want and how such and such a school has let you down. If you want contact join Muay Thai or MMA, sure you say there are rules and that is no good but also keep in mind nothing else is going to prepare or condition you for apply force to an opponent or receiving it. Cross train it with BJJ (I can vouch for its effectiveness from experience) and then you negate the lack of grappling and groundwork. Or better yet train MMA which is very close to real fighting as all aspects or range are covered.. Also you are always going to encounter rules, they are a there to help keep you and your training partner safe and able to turn up the to the next training session/work etc.

I don't mind rules for safety -- what I mind are rules that are counter-intuitive to self defence. Like saying "Don't target the groin" (which means that you don't bother to keep your groin safe if nobody's ever going to strike you there) or "no contact", which of course means you stop learning to make contact with your hits, let alone issuing power.

For example, I often do "tip sparring," where "tipping" is a safety rule so that you're not actually hitting the person with force, but just tapping them with your hands, feet, elbow, knee etc. Enough force to make contact and let them know that they've been contacted, but not enough to really hurt (at worst it's like a slap). When going for the groin, we go for the inner groin muscle or upper inner thigh, striking just next to genitals, but actually at them. Alternatively or additionally you can also enforce students to wear protective gear. So I'm fine with rules that modify fighting for safe training -by law schools have to do this (re: Duty of Care), but it should be done in a way that isn't counter-intuitive to how a fight should go.

It's like say teaching kids footy but at first you start with Touch Footy rules instead of allowing tackling. But otherwise the rules of the game are pretty much the same as actual tackle footy. It's a rule that allows people to play footy in a manner that's safer than tackling, but isn't necessarily counter intuitive to tackle footy because you're still following the same rules. When I spar in some schools and they say, "You can't go for the groin," well, that's significantly altering the state of play. I'd rather, "Go for the upper inner thigh" or "everyone must wear a groin guard"... that allows for safer and intuitive training.

I have tried some BJJ before and I've found it is quite good for 1 vs 1 fighting. A bit unsure on fighting multiple opponents as BJJ has always taught me to go onto the ground with my opponent (whereas in Chen Tai Chi we do "upright" grapples submission holds and never go to the ground). Also, some BJJ guys I've sparred against leave their groins open... but I think that's because their techniques were sloppy, like they'd be pinning me, but because their bodies are tightly gripping mine, they leave a gap which I can worm my arm(s) into and grab their nards. But I've had instructors explain to me that the holds should be really tight so that there are no gaps. There is a BJJ school not far from me, and I am thinking about having a look at that when my GKR trial is over. There's also another Yang Tai Chi that's further away from me... might also try that if I can arrange the time to get there. But yeah, BJJ is a style that I hold in high regard. I also have a lot of respect for Goju Karate too; that's a nice traditional Okinawan style that I find has good solid tight defences with excellent endurance training (as part of their Fujian heritage).

So I am still shopping around. Just kinda on hold atm cos I'm locked into GKR for another 2 months.

Unless you want to start a fight club or go down to your local pub and start smashing punters you are never going to get a ‘real experience’. Training is almost always a compromise as nothing teaches you on what to really expect in a fight or will show you how effective you really are except for a real fight.

Ya know... I am seriously thinking about making a kind of fight club; like maybe finding other martial arts enthusiasts around my area (even at this GKR school I've met some nice friendly people whom I might keep in touch with even if I choose not to continue GKR) and just get together informally and cross train with each other. I personally have all kinds of safety equipment - protectors, pads, shields... even an old gym mat We could just meet up at a park or something and train with each other.

Come train with me Gok... I'll learn ya

Can you PM me with your school details? I might look into it after my GKR stint is done.

[KalEl]

Because that's what I enjoy learning in martial arts. It's a personal preference thing. It's like asking someone "Why do you enjoy entering tournaments?" or "Why do you enjoy keeping your toys MISB?"

I enjoy opening my toys and playing with them because I find it fun/enjoyable. Likewise I find it martial arts enjoyable when it's directly applicable to fighting/self defence. I'm not trying to put down other people's preferences in MAs by saying this... but it's my personal preference.

i understand that i was just curious about the reasons behind it.

[Bartrim]

Ya know... I am seriously thinking about making a kind of fight club; like maybe finding other martial arts enthusiasts around my area (even at this GKR school I've met some nice friendly people whom I might keep in touch with even if I choose not to continue GKR) and just get together informally and cross train with each other. I personally have all kinds of safety equipment - protectors, pads, shields... even an old gym mat We could just meet up at a park or something and train with each other.

It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

[KalEl]

It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

if we were only all in the same area

[Bartrim]

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvTxH...feature=fvwrel

[KalEl]

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvTxH...feature=fvwrel

*mega face palm*

[Hot Rodimus]

anytime your up Brisbane way your more than welcome to join me for a spar or swap techniques/ideas Gok

Just be carefull starting up a 'fight club'... as in don't call it a fight club lol. That sort of name will attract unwanted attention and has negative connotations. Forming a training group can be great though, I have been part of one in the past and learnt some interesting concepts and techniques that I wouldn't have normally been exposed to. One thing to watch though is if people get hurt. I would hate to see you on the end of some nasty litigation if one of your training buddies get's injured and decides to sue (may never happen but in today's day and age you have to consider it). As the organiser you may be held responsible? Maybe someone here who has legal knowledge could advise??

[Bartrim]

After watching that previous youtube vid I found this one. All I can say is HADOUKEN!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n...eature=related

feel free to reply with any facepalm images you think are worthy.

[GoktimusPrime]

It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

if we were only all in the same area

+1. That would be an awesome idea if we lived in the same locale (or had teleportation devices ). It's so hard to discuss this kind of stuff in text, whereas when you talk about this stuff with people IRL it's much faster and more efficient! I find it's a case of "a move speaks a thousand words."

anytime your up Brisbane way your more than welcome to join me for a spar or swap techniques/ideas Gok

Thanks dude, and likewise.

Just be carefull starting up a 'fight club'... as in don't call it a fight club lol. That sort of name will attract unwanted attention and has negative connotations. Forming a training group can be great though, I have been part of one in the past and learnt some interesting concepts and techniques that I wouldn't have normally been exposed to. One thing to watch though is if people get hurt. I would hate to see you on the end of some nasty litigation if one of your training buddies get's injured and decides to sue (may never happen but in today's day and age you have to consider it). As the organiser you may be held responsible? Maybe someone here who has legal knowledge could advise??

I've organised and participated in informal training gatherings before too, and I did look into the legality of it. My understanding is that it falls under third party public liability - which means that whoever hurts someone else is legally liable. It's pretty much the same liability that happens for any other sport activity run by private individuals. For example, we could form say a cricket team and play/train in the park. If say Bartrim were to hit me with a cricket ball and I sustained injury, then he may be liable. This is why martial arts schools take out insurance which covers them in the event of injury.

But I think that within reason it would be possible. If anyone here is thinking about starting up such groups in your local area, here are some suggestions:
+ Agree that everyone participates at their own risk.
+ Only allow people who have a prior martial arts training/experience participate.
+ Agree to a set of rules for the sake of safety. If someone doesn't agree, then don't train with them. For example, the last group I was involved with was with MMA and MT fighters. After I badly hurt one of them in the groin, I purchased an external groin guard for my partners to used, but at the next training session, they refused to wear it -- more concerned about just not targetting the groin rather than wearing it for safety. So I refused to continue training with them and left the group.

...basically, you just use common sense. Train hard, but keep each other safe.

I would also consider purchasing training equipment too. I personally have chest protectors, head protectors, groin guard, shin guards, mitts, focus pads, kick shield, boxing bag, gym mat etc. -- so I'm equipped to practise with other like minded MA enthusiasts. I guess I just gotta build some contacts around my area. I know one guy near who lives near me that I used to train with. And I've started forming a rapport with some of the people I'm training with at GKR, so I might be able to get some of them on board (particularly one brown belt who seems promising and has expressed his frustration to me about his training).

Another thing I've enjoyed about these informal training groups is that you get to meet a variety of people of different MA backgrounds... you don't get that so much in MA school settings where most people are trained in the same style. So it's a good way to test your own training/style against others too... cos often you see people fight a certain way and think to yourself, "I wonder what I'd do against that?" You can theorise all you like, but you'll never know unless you try. The worst injury I've sustained from training outside a school was a bruise near my rib after trying out some European Broadsword! I totally suck at weapons.