The Art of War

[GoktimusPrime]

This conversation was spawned off from this thread about Transformers Victory and Zone.

Why is (Dai Atlas) controversial?

Because he's ruthless against his foes and takes no prisoners, which is unlike any other Autobot leader before him and many Japanese fans argue that it's against the spirit of what an Autobot leader should stand for. Using Convoy as a benchmark, they argue that an Autobot commander should always exercise mercy and compassion.

In Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile, it specifically states that his greatest weakness is his compassion. But it also states that without that compassion, he simply wouldn't be Optimus Prime - i.e.: that it's his compassion that helps define his character. Grimlock was even less merciful when he was first leader - to the point where he became a tyrant and was merciless against fellow Autobots... but the difference is that many Autobots under Grimlock's command were unhappy with his rule and it ultimately led to acts of desertion, mutiny and a limited Autobot civil war. Dai Atlas on the other hand is a widely celebrated leader who is loved by his Autobots and allies - to the point where Star Sabre allowed him to assume Autobot command while he went off the search for Convoy's body (so that he could be rebuilt as Star Convoy).

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

There are more and less compassionate ways of doing this. For example, the Cybertronian martial art of Diffusion is preferred by Autobots because it allows them to incapacitate an opponent without having to hurt them (it's primarily about submission holds and locks). Likewise with Jet-Judo.

Diffusion


Dai Atlas' fighting mentality is more akin to what Decepticons would prefer and uncharacteristic of an Autobot, especially an Autobot supreme commander.

[kup]

This conversation was spawned off from this thread about Transformers Victory and Zone.



Because he's ruthless against his foes and takes no prisoners, which is unlike any other Autobot leader before him and many Japanese fans argue that it's against the spirit of what an Autobot leader should stand for. Using Convoy as a benchmark, they argue that an Autobot commander should always exercise mercy and compassion.

In Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile, it specifically states that his greatest weakness is his compassion. But it also states that without that compassion, he simply wouldn't be Optimus Prime - i.e.: that it's his compassion that helps define his character. Grimlock was even less merciful when he was first leader - to the point where he became a tyrant and was merciless against fellow Autobots... but the difference is that many Autobots under Grimlock's command were unhappy with his rule and it ultimately led to acts of desertion, mutiny and a limited Autobot civil war. Dai Atlas on the other hand is a widely celebrated leader who is loved by his Autobots and allies - to the point where Star Sabre allowed him to assume Autobot command while he went off the search for Convoy's body (so that he could be rebuilt as Star Convoy).

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

There are more and less compassionate ways of doing this. For example, the Cybertronian martial art of Diffusion is preferred by Autobots because it allows them to incapacitate an opponent without having to hurt them (it's primarily about submission holds and locks). Likewise with Jet-Judo.

Diffusion


Dai Atlas' fighting mentality is more akin to what Decepticons would prefer and uncharacteristic of an Autobot, especially an Autobot supreme commander.

I don't know much about Dai Atlas as all I know is the stuff from Zone and that is already VERY limited.

Anyway, speaking of ruthless Autobots, the Wreckers from Marvel UK comics were downright ruthless towards Decepticons.

Here they are all happy and jolly after a 'Wreck and Rule!' carnage against Decepticons:

They are even playing around with Decepticon body parts! So much for Autobot Morality

[Bartrim]

Anyway, Metallikato and any other tf martial art is a load of Bartrim manure

I don't have any manure left Roller. Remember I cursed not insuring it coming back from my last holiday (see the abscence of saintly thread)

Gok, where did you read so much about Circuit-Su?Not even the TF wiki has much info on that?

[Sam]

I read in those Dreamwave TF:MTMTE source books that "Pit Fighting" is a fighting style that is aimed at dishing out heavy / fatal hits in a short space of time. Supposedly guys like Grimlock use this style of fighting (but to me it seems to be a case of "Bigger guys hit harder").

Is this just another fancy way of saying "Beat the crap out of the enemy ASAP"?

It does not describe it enough for me to see that it's something "special" or a martial arts style (but perhaps I am using that term too narrowly).

Also .... I find that crystalocution (spelling?) style a bit confusing. Is it trying to say "I stab you with my fingers until you hurt" ?

[GoktimusPrime]

Anyway, speaking of ruthless Autobots, the Wreckers from Marvel UK comics were downright ruthless towards Decepticons.

Here they are all happy and jolly after a 'Wreck and Rule!' carnage against Decepticons:

They are even playing around with Decepticon body parts! So much for Autobot Morality

Well I've heard a lot Japanese fans argue about morality from an Autobot supreme commander. But you're right - there are plenty of other Autobots out there which are quite brutal... like the Dinobots. But Dai Atlas' brutality is the main reason behind his lack of popularity within the Japanese Transfandom. It personally doesn't bother me because firstly he's not Optimus Prime and secondly it makes sense from a martial POV to be more ruthless in battle. I also give Zone writers kudos for trying to make Dai Atlas distinct from other Autobot leaders.

Gok, where did you read so much about Circuit-Su?Not even the TF wiki has much info on that?

Yeah... Transformers wiki has a lot of errors and missing information... don't even get me started about TF wiki... (-_-) I just saw their page on Circuit-Su. It has no bibliography. Yeah... *cough*

Anyway, according to Bugly's tech specs, "Practices the deadly martial art of Circuit-Su, which channels energy into one powerful electric blast. Electro-stingers in helmet deliver 3,000 volt charges that paralyze on contact." According to Dreamwave's "More Than Meets The Eye" it requires a heavy amount of psychic training.

[Bartrim]

Yeah... Transformers wiki has a lot of errors and missing information... don't even get me started about TF wiki... (-_-) I just saw their page on Circuit-Su. It has no bibliography. Yeah... *cough*

Anyway, according to Bugly's tech specs, "Practices the deadly martial art of Circuit-Su, which channels energy into one powerful electric blast. Electro-stingers in helmet deliver 3,000 volt charges that paralyze on contact." According to Dreamwave's "More Than Meets The Eye" it requires a heavy amount of psychic training.

Ah thank you. The only tf I was aware of that trained in circuit su is animated Prowl (I'm still learning about post season4G1 characters) and had no knowledge of him ever shooting 3,000 volt charges.

[GoktimusPrime]

From here.

I don't think Long Hauls look that much like any earth weapon, and as you say with a skill of 2

I didn't say they were Earthen hook swords, but they're definitely some kind of hook-blade. More than just sickles as the blade tips actually do hook around - different form and thus different techniques would be required to use them effectively.

he'd be better of with a simple peasant weapon than something wielded by a master.

Peasant weapons aren't necessarily easier to use. Examples of peasant weaponry include: sickles, nunchakus, staffs, tonfas, shurikens (ninja stars), tetsuboshi (caltrops) etc. For a person of relatively low skill the best weapon would actually be gun! All you gotta do is point and pull the trigger - compared to melee weapons, guns have a far lower level of skill required to use them in war.

That's why they were heralded with such enthusiasm in many cultures. It took years to master a sword or bow and arrow - but a rifleman could be trained in weeks. This in turn led to the advent of conscription. It became even easier with automatic machine guns. In Europe the gun became known as the "equaliser" because suddenly a man's physical attributes such as strength, speed, dexterity, skill etc. became far less relevant. A slow weakling wouldn't make a terribly effective swordsman or archer, but they could still become an effective rifleman.

Some cultures actually shunned firearms for this reason. During the Tokugawa Period in feudal Japan, guns were outlawed in Japan and looked down upon by the Samurai who considered guns to be a dishonourable coward's weapon as learning to become a rifleman doesn't require the same level of warrior's discipline as a sword or bow. This is also seen in Star Wars were the Jedi are basically Samurai in space with laser swords.

"Your father's light sabre. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilised age." - Obi-Wan Kenobi (A New Hope)

"So uncivilised!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi, after using a blaster (Revenge of the Sith)

So yeah, if they were going to give Long Haul a skill of 2 they probably should've just given him a gun. As Triggerhappy always says, "Have gun have fun!"

[Lord_Zed]

From here.

I didn't say they were Earthen hook swords, but they're definitely some kind of hook-blade. More than just sickles as the blade tips actually do hook around - different form and thus different techniques would be required to use them effectively.


Peasant weapons aren't necessarily easier to use. Examples of peasant weaponry include: sickles, nunchakus, staffs, tonfas, shurikens (ninja stars), tetsuboshi (caltrops) etc. For a person of relatively low skill the best weapon would actually be gun! All you gotta do is point and pull the trigger - compared to melee weapons, guns have a far lower level of skill required to use them in war.

True enough, but if we are talking European weapons battle axes and halberds often have a hook like indent at the edge. Both wepaons were much cheaper than swords and commonly used by barbarians or the lower classes respectively. Both took a lot less trainning than the far more precise sword. I feel the most obvious feature of Long Haul's alien weapons are the cleaving edge which like the axe would deliver considerable damage and armour defeating ability in the hands of a strong mechanoid like Long Haul.

[liegeprime]

Anyway, according to Bugly's tech specs, "Practices the deadly martial art of Circuit-Su, which channels energy into one powerful electric blast. Electro-stingers in helmet deliver 3,000 volt charges that paralyze on contact." According to Dreamwave's "More Than Meets The Eye" it requires a heavy amount of psychic training.

Psychic training my a#@, give me a strong tesla coil and a megawatt power battery and were in business with this circuit-su thingie. More like "short circuit su". To me though Diffusion kinda works like Judo. I don't know much about real martial arts but from descriptions, Diffusion does looks like it was derived from that martial arts technique. While circuit su is indeed derived from them Kung Fu (grip?, hehe) pressure points attack, Metallikato, no idea.... care to elaborate a bit mebbe Gok. Wonder, how come there's no description of sword techniques as there certainly are a couple who uses said melee weapon anyways, Dinobots ( but I guess with them its more bash slice :P), Predacons, Megatron has one, yeah....they seem to have left that out.

[GoktimusPrime]

I feel the most obvious feature of Long Haul's alien weapons are the cleaving edge which like the axe would deliver considerable damage and armour defeating ability in the hands of a strong mechanoid like Long Haul.

I didn't even see his weapons as being axe-like until you mentioned it! Perhaps his blades are like those optical illusions where different people see different things. Now I'm thinking maybe his blades are a hybrid axe hook blade. Oooh!

To me though Diffusion kinda works like Judo. I don't know much about real martial arts but from descriptions, Diffusion does looks like it was derived from that martial arts technique.

That's not a bad comparison. Judo is a sport but it's derived from the martial art known as Jujutsu (which Rampage has training in ). Jujutsu is a primarily grappling and submissive martial art which is very good for subduing an opponent but without necessarily needing to bash their heads in (since you're focusing on restraint rather than striking). Jujutsu isn't the only martial art which uses grappling and submissions (a lot of other styles do too, including traditional Greco-Roman Wrestling), but yeah - that's probably where you got the imagery of Judo from. Judo is a sport which involves grappling and throwing - I find it's really not very effective though. Most Judo players cannot throw you if you really don't want to be thrown, and their grapples and throws are pee-easy to counter, whereas a decent Jujutsu practitioner will _force_ you down and pin you in some painful crushing restraining hold (like an armbar). But yeah, it's a relatively far more passive kind of martial art, what we call an "internal" martial art. The passive (yet very effective) nature of Diffusion makes it preferable for most Autobots ('cept more aggressively violent Autobots like Grimlock who uses Pit Fighting instead )

While circuit su is indeed derived from them Kung Fu (grip?, hehe) pressure points attack, Metallikato, no idea.... care to elaborate a bit mebbe Gok.

Crystalocution is the Cybetronian martial art which specialises in pressure point attacks. Circuit-Su is like the Dark Side of the Force with Sith Lightning attacks and Metallikato is like Street Fighter; Hadouken! It was Furman who later gave Bludgeon a sword and introduced swordsmanship into Metallikato's range.

Wonder, how come there's no description of sword techniques as there certainly are a couple who uses said melee weapon anyways, Dinobots ( but I guess with them its more bash slice :P), Predacons, Megatron has one, yeah....they seem to have left that out.

Bludgeon's tech specs makes no reference to swordsmanship since the toy never came with a sword. The early Beast Wars tech specs were also really _badly_ written - Hasbro only took more care after the cartoon came out; so yeah there's not a lot of information about any martial art techniques in Beast Wars. Dinobot was a very Samurai-like character so I think it would be reasonable to assume that as a Decepticon descendant his techniques were either some kind of Metallikato, or possibly a newer (Maximal/Predacon age) martial art derived from Metallikato. Sharp Edge's tech specs does describe him as an expert sword fighter but beyond that doesn't really go into much descriptive detail about his techniques (which would differ from other techniques being aquatic or amphibious).