The Art of War

[RageOnTheRoads]

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

Bah! Dai Atlas is a prat! Actually in a war war of ideologies Dai Atlas and his methods are one of the most counter productive, self defeating, hypocritical ways of fighting. In fact in while it's good for a body count in the short term, that kind of brutal 'effectiveness' just creates more hateful, resentful soldiers and martyrs in your enemy over the long run. Not to mention the friggin inhumanity of it.

There is no such thing as the 'nature of war', just the nature of man and the weak, deluded, cruel, sadistic and fearful men and women who indulge or succumb to acts of evil because they can get away with it. Nothing and I do mean NOTHING justifies acts of cruelty and brutality or genocide. (3 War journalists in the family and 2 who have fought has left me with a bitter distaste for war. )

I agree with the Japanese fans here, Dai Atlas is one of those leaders I would be happy to see stricken form TF lore . Make no mistake Dai Atlas's aim was genocide and there is nothing more inhumane, more evil, than genocide. He was leader willing to stoop to any level to win the war, even denounce the very code of honour his side was founded upon. In the real world we have the Geneva Convention to protect against prats like him and the aforementioned people.

Plus, if you're fighting an ideological war in which your side embodies and fights for the qualities of freedom, truth etc, for all beings and you loose this in favour of becoming a ruthless cold killer, then what the is the point of the war!? It becomes nothing but a mindless, irrational squabble for simple selfish self gratification.

The reality is you have to hold a degree of compassion or at least some respect for the enemy or you will very quickly find yourself embodying many of their qualities you find so abhorrent. The second you believe you have the right to kill/maim/torture a person because of allegiance, religion or gender is the moment you yourself become an embodiment of evil.... In fact some of the most disgusting, unspeakable evils known to humanity have been committed by those who claim compassion has no place in war and hide behind the so called 'fog of war'.

Optimus Prime, on the other hand is the kind of leader I would unequivocally and with out any hesitation run head long into battle and lay down my life for. Someone who stands for higher ideals rather than a simplistic, animalistic need for survival. And who holds to those values despite all the evil the cons throw at him. *waves OP pompoms*
Like you say Gok, his compassion isn't a weakness, its what defines him and makes him an autobot The very fact that the Decepticons lack compassion is what makes them Decepticons, its how they are able to commit the atrocities that they do.

I remember so vividly my grand pappy telling me about his experiences during WWll. He enlightened me to the true nature of war and its varying grotesqueries. One of the things he told me - "it is so very, very easy, to succumb to the powerful allure of hatred and darkness that festers and grows all the more potent inside of us [during wartime]. No one is immune to it. I watched good men, good, but weak men sacrifice their humanity to the depravities that such hatred coaxes from us. It is only the strongest and most courageous of us that retains their compassion, decency, honour in the face of the unspeakable evils of war. Only the very strongest." Not his exact words, but the powerful message it left with me anyway. And it is for that very reason that in terms of awesome leaders Score :OP=100000000 Dai Atlas= -1000000000 and Michael Bay's OP= -infinity

Compassion aint a weakness in war Gok, its the single most important safe guard to your humanity.

[GoktimusPrime]

I pretty much agree with what you've said. Keep in mind that "good" and "evil" are often very subjective ideals. One person's definition of "good" can be seen as "evil" to someone else and vice versa. I once wrote this fan fic based on a "heroic" Predacon (i.e.: seeing the Predacon cause from their POV and how they might see the Maximals as "evil").

In my post I said, "in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible" - killing your opponents isn't the only way to incapacitate them (but it is the most effective! But also the most incompassionate!). And yeah, it's because the Autobots come from a more altruistic school of morality that they would prefer more passive and self-defensive martial arts like Diffusion.

And Diffusion is based on real-life internal ("soft") martial arts, which I personally prefer over more aggressive external ("hard") styles. External martial arts focus more on speed, ferocity, strength and agility whereas internal martial arts have more of a focus on self-awareness, relaxed leverage, and supple muscle tension (whereas external styles use brute force). Examples of internal martial arts IRL include:
* Jujutsu
* Aikido
* Tai Chi/Taijiquan
* Xingyiquan (Form Intention Boxing)
* Baguazhang (Eight Trigram Palm)
* Liuhebafa (Six Harmony Eight Methods)
* Northern Praying Mantis
...etc. Having said that, it's important to note that all martial arts have internal and external elements in them. Even though Karate is commonly classified as an external martial art, the Okinawan Karate style "Goju" means "Hard and soft." And there are explosive movements in Taijiquan (particularly Chen style).

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P.S.: Jet Judo is another 'internal' Cybertronian martial art - essentially a grappling/wrestling/submission style, only that your opponent is a supersonic jet in mid-flight! Bumblebee also used Diffusion when he fought Barricade in the 2007 movie.

[Rodimus]

did the guy in the blue shirt stuff his knee? cos that pic doesn't look too good

btw i reckon tf movie jazz has the best moves, although his size was a lil lacking against megs i.e. got ripped in half

[GoktimusPrime]

did the guy in the blue shirt stuff his knee? cos that pic doesn't look too good

What's wrong with it? This video demonstrates a similar technique: with the main difference being that the video shows the defender's forward hand grabbing the elbow whereas the photo shows grabbing the shoulder (because the in our demonstration it starts off with the defender stepping on the attacker's outside whereas in the video the defender steps on the attacker's inside. MTMTE #8 shows an illustration of Ultra Magnus using a similar submission technique.

btw i reckon tf movie jazz has the best moves, although his size was a lil lacking against megs i.e. got ripped in half

His moves against Brawlastator were quite acrobatic, which was a homage to 1986's Transformers The Movie where Kup did something similar to latch onto Blitzwing's turret. It's a neat move that takes advantage of the fact that the Autobots can accelerate in car mode and then continue to use that momentum to propel them onto an opponent while transforming to robot mode. However the critical downside to this technique is that it leaves little margin for error, so you'd have to choose your moment carefully (and timing is one of the most crucial elements in a fight); with both Kup and Jazz they were attacking relatively stationary targets as both Brawl and Blitzwing were in tank mode blasting away (and not rolling at the time). This technique would realistically be far more difficult to employ against a fast moving opponent.

If you compare it with Jet Judo, both Sideswipe and Sunstreaker used their car modes to help propel them into the air, and then quickly transformed to robot mode while they continued to fly up toward their opponents (Seeker jets). This means that by time they attach or stick (or as the person on the above video would say "blend") onto their opponents, they're already in robot mode. This leaves them a greater margin for error as it means that if the initial attachment fails, they're not as completely vulnerable as they would be if they were in mid-transformation.

[Rodimus]

What's wrong with it? This video demonstrates a similar technique: with the main difference being that the video shows the defender's forward hand grabbing the elbow whereas the photo shows grabbing the shoulder (because the in our demonstration it starts off with the defender stepping on the attacker's outside whereas in the video the defender steps on the attacker's inside. MTMTE #8 shows an illustration of Ultra Magnus using a similar submission technique.

i was just referring to the guy in the blue shirt who has his right leg tucked in rather than stretched out like his left leg is which would hurt like hell as he's put his body weight onto it (oh my kneecaps, ankle, etc!)



yeah that move is one of the very first moves they teach you in jujitsu which basically diverts the attacker's momentum and forces them to faceplant using their own momentum. ive been studying jujitsu for a few years now but i've never had a new student fall down like that (yet)

[Sam]

Hey, I was curious about the hadouken style fireball thing that some TFs can do (I think Bludgeon can do this).

Did the original Marvel comics show him being able to do this or was it a more recent "invention" (i.e. could it possibly have been influenced by things such as SF2 and/or DragonBall Z)?

[GoktimusPrime]

i was just referring to the guy in the blue shirt who has his right leg tucked in rather than stretched out like his left leg is which would hurt like hell as he's put his body weight onto it (oh my kneecaps, ankle, etc!)

Looks can be deceiving.

Seriously though, the handsome devil in the blue shirt is trying to prevent himself from being forced to lie prostrate on the ground. This is because if the person in black is able to get the blue person lying fully prostrate, then he can really effectively pin him and lock him onto the ground. The blue person is kicking his right leg in in an attempt to gain footing and then try to counter-manoeuvre himself out of the black shirted person's hold. It may not be the prettiest thing to behold - but fighting isn't about looking good, it's about survival.

The fully completed lock looks something like this. Notice that the yellow belt is lying fully prostrate and the green belt has the yellow belt's wrist bent and is driving downward pressure into the green belt's shoulder, thus keeping him trapped onto the ground. At this point there is effectively no way the yellow belt can escape this lock. There are various ways you can counter the lock but it must be done before the person performing the lock can get you lying prostrate and completing the lock. Once a lock is completed you can't get out of it - hence why it's called a lock!

If you look at this image of a police officer locking a suspect, you can see that the suspect is lying fully prostrate while the officer has both knees on his back and applying downward pressure. That suspect is _not_ getting up until the restraining officer gets off him! Different technique but same principle.

If you'd like I can give you a simple demonstration at the next Parramatta Fair meet - there's a nice big grassy area across from Parramatta Town Hall. Don't worry you won't get hurt (providing that you cooperate with my instructions ). Or maybe if Rampage is coming I can demonstrate with him since he's a trained grappler. (^_^)

[Rodimus]

if that right leg is there as a countermeasure, it will be a very painful one

if the dude in the blue shirt is already in that position, any attempt to get upright can easily be countered by the dude with the black shirt by levering on his already extended arm/wrist which will only force him more onto the ground

he cant use is left arm as its keeping his face off the ground and he has already compromised his center of gravity so its game over unless the hold on his arm is sloppy and he can manage to roll away to the side

i've done this move so many times as both attacker and defender that i can do it in my sleep. i don't really think i'll need to revisit that part of my training unless theres a real need for it, but thanks for the offer gok

[GoktimusPrime]

if that right leg is there as a countermeasure, it will be a very painful one

It wasn't. The photo is meant to be showing the blue guy getting pwned anyway.

if the dude in the blue shirt is already in that position, any attempt to get upright can easily be countered by the dude with the black shirt by levering on his already extended arm/wrist which will only force him more onto the ground

Which he could also counter-counter. This would be and endless scenario debate because every move can be countered and every counter can be counter-countered... in terms of grappling everything is effectively moot until the lock is completed.

You're probably right though - the blue guy would most likely get pwned -- but that was the entire point of that demonstration. It's the guy in the black shirt who's demonstrating the actual move. The handsome guy in blue is attempting to resist/struggle; whether it's an effective resistance or not is debatable. I prefer it over other demos where the person being grappled is fully compliant and doesn't attempt to struggle which is totally unrealistic. If you try to wrestle someone to the ground of _course_ they're going to try to get out of it! That's the thing that annoys me whenever I flick through a martial arts magazine on newstands and look at all those silly photographic sequences where the attacker is usually fully placid and compliant. Even in that video link I attached in post #24 - notice how the attacker STOPS attacking after throwing his first punch?! I prefer demonstrations or instructional photos/videos where the attacker continues his attack and continues to struggle and fight for the entire duration of the melee, like in this knife defence demo.

[Rodimus]

yeah nothings impossible but the odds are heavily stacked against the blue shirt dude. there are some locks that have a very limited window of opportunity followed very quickly with the point of no return

i agree im more a realist in terms of fight scenarios and our dojo is heavily street orientated. our pracs reflect this as it often involves multiple attackers (from 3 or more) and a LOT of bukijutsu (weapons like knives, bats, clubs, guns, etc).

i can't help analysing fight scenarios, i suppose its just the way my brain has been programmed now. sometimes I can't even relax and watch kung fu / action flicks without over analysing.

yeah so when i saw that pick i thought wow that must've hurt a bit even if done slowly