The Art of War

[roller]

there was a panel that said something like "After years of trying to take Iacon & failing at Seige warfare the Cons decide to nuke the place with missiles. "

rarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrhh watever

Anyway, Metallikato and any other tf martial art is a load of Bartrim manure

[GoktimusPrime]

As Wikipedia would say, citation needed. Source please.

Anyway, Metallikato and any other tf martial art is a load of Bartrim manure

Why?

[roller]

cause, even as a hardcore fan i know they are just rip offs of real martial arts, and for a good reason, they want to make tf society seem real.

But i still dont like the concept, their machines, they kill without swords, they have big freakin guns!!!
wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[GoktimusPrime]

cause, even as a hardcore fan i know they are just rip offs of real martial arts, and for a good reason, they want to make tf society seem real.

Cos Hadouken-style energy expulsions and telekinesis (which Metallikato employs) exists in real martial arts (-_-) </sarcasm>

Diffusion is probably the only Cybertronian martial art which is the most realistic/non-fantasy martial art. All other Cybertronian martial arts employ 'fantasy' techniques. Circuit-Su uses Sith-like lightning blasts and Crystallocution attacks "fracture points" - kinda like the 'pressure point attacks' we see in fantasy martial arts movies (e.g.: Kung Fu Panda) only that it literally fractures the opponent's metallic skin/armour. This makes sense though - when you're employing martial arts against giant armoured super robots, you're gonna need something a bit beyond basic pugilism!

But i still dont like the concept, their machines, they kill without swords, they have big freakin guns!!!
wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

They're super robots - and as I said, their martial arts employ a lot of super fantasy techniques, which allow them to work against opponents who use artillery. It's like Jedi and Sith in Star Wars; they can't just be really good sword fighters, the Force becomes a convenient excuse to allow them to use melee weapons (i.e.: light sabres) against enemies with ranged weapons (i.e.: blasters). It absolutely doesn't work in real life (hence why modern soldiers don't fight with swords no more), but we're talking about fighting in a fantasy sense.

If you want to discuss realistic martial arts, please do so in the Martial Arts Discussion thread (in the non-Transformers section). This thread is for the discussion of Cybertronian warfare - and not just Cybertronian martial arts. If you don't like it then don't post here.

[Paulbot]

there was a panel that said something like "After years of trying to take Iacon & failing at Seige warfare the Cons decide to nuke the place with missiles. "

I can back Roller up on that quote, but can't recall where it was. I believe it might have been in Dreamwave or the Ultimate Guide, whereas Goktimus is referring to events in a text story in the UK comics.

Different "Universes" fellas, different wars.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ah right. I was indeed talking about G1. Thanks for clearing that up.

[GoktimusPrime]

This conversation was spawned off from this thread about Transformers Victory and Zone.

Why is (Dai Atlas) controversial?

Because he's ruthless against his foes and takes no prisoners, which is unlike any other Autobot leader before him and many Japanese fans argue that it's against the spirit of what an Autobot leader should stand for. Using Convoy as a benchmark, they argue that an Autobot commander should always exercise mercy and compassion.

In Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile, it specifically states that his greatest weakness is his compassion. But it also states that without that compassion, he simply wouldn't be Optimus Prime - i.e.: that it's his compassion that helps define his character. Grimlock was even less merciful when he was first leader - to the point where he became a tyrant and was merciless against fellow Autobots... but the difference is that many Autobots under Grimlock's command were unhappy with his rule and it ultimately led to acts of desertion, mutiny and a limited Autobot civil war. Dai Atlas on the other hand is a widely celebrated leader who is loved by his Autobots and allies - to the point where Star Sabre allowed him to assume Autobot command while he went off the search for Convoy's body (so that he could be rebuilt as Star Convoy).

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

There are more and less compassionate ways of doing this. For example, the Cybertronian martial art of Diffusion is preferred by Autobots because it allows them to incapacitate an opponent without having to hurt them (it's primarily about submission holds and locks). Likewise with Jet-Judo.

Diffusion


Dai Atlas' fighting mentality is more akin to what Decepticons would prefer and uncharacteristic of an Autobot, especially an Autobot supreme commander.

[kup]

This conversation was spawned off from this thread about Transformers Victory and Zone.



Because he's ruthless against his foes and takes no prisoners, which is unlike any other Autobot leader before him and many Japanese fans argue that it's against the spirit of what an Autobot leader should stand for. Using Convoy as a benchmark, they argue that an Autobot commander should always exercise mercy and compassion.

In Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile, it specifically states that his greatest weakness is his compassion. But it also states that without that compassion, he simply wouldn't be Optimus Prime - i.e.: that it's his compassion that helps define his character. Grimlock was even less merciful when he was first leader - to the point where he became a tyrant and was merciless against fellow Autobots... but the difference is that many Autobots under Grimlock's command were unhappy with his rule and it ultimately led to acts of desertion, mutiny and a limited Autobot civil war. Dai Atlas on the other hand is a widely celebrated leader who is loved by his Autobots and allies - to the point where Star Sabre allowed him to assume Autobot command while he went off the search for Convoy's body (so that he could be rebuilt as Star Convoy).

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

There are more and less compassionate ways of doing this. For example, the Cybertronian martial art of Diffusion is preferred by Autobots because it allows them to incapacitate an opponent without having to hurt them (it's primarily about submission holds and locks). Likewise with Jet-Judo.

Diffusion


Dai Atlas' fighting mentality is more akin to what Decepticons would prefer and uncharacteristic of an Autobot, especially an Autobot supreme commander.

I don't know much about Dai Atlas as all I know is the stuff from Zone and that is already VERY limited.

Anyway, speaking of ruthless Autobots, the Wreckers from Marvel UK comics were downright ruthless towards Decepticons.

Here they are all happy and jolly after a 'Wreck and Rule!' carnage against Decepticons:

They are even playing around with Decepticon body parts! So much for Autobot Morality

[RageOnTheRoads]

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

Bah! Dai Atlas is a prat! Actually in a war war of ideologies Dai Atlas and his methods are one of the most counter productive, self defeating, hypocritical ways of fighting. In fact in while it's good for a body count in the short term, that kind of brutal 'effectiveness' just creates more hateful, resentful soldiers and martyrs in your enemy over the long run. Not to mention the friggin inhumanity of it.

There is no such thing as the 'nature of war', just the nature of man and the weak, deluded, cruel, sadistic and fearful men and women who indulge or succumb to acts of evil because they can get away with it. Nothing and I do mean NOTHING justifies acts of cruelty and brutality or genocide. (3 War journalists in the family and 2 who have fought has left me with a bitter distaste for war. )

I agree with the Japanese fans here, Dai Atlas is one of those leaders I would be happy to see stricken form TF lore . Make no mistake Dai Atlas's aim was genocide and there is nothing more inhumane, more evil, than genocide. He was leader willing to stoop to any level to win the war, even denounce the very code of honour his side was founded upon. In the real world we have the Geneva Convention to protect against prats like him and the aforementioned people.

Plus, if you're fighting an ideological war in which your side embodies and fights for the qualities of freedom, truth etc, for all beings and you loose this in favour of becoming a ruthless cold killer, then what the is the point of the war!? It becomes nothing but a mindless, irrational squabble for simple selfish self gratification.

The reality is you have to hold a degree of compassion or at least some respect for the enemy or you will very quickly find yourself embodying many of their qualities you find so abhorrent. The second you believe you have the right to kill/maim/torture a person because of allegiance, religion or gender is the moment you yourself become an embodiment of evil.... In fact some of the most disgusting, unspeakable evils known to humanity have been committed by those who claim compassion has no place in war and hide behind the so called 'fog of war'.

Optimus Prime, on the other hand is the kind of leader I would unequivocally and with out any hesitation run head long into battle and lay down my life for. Someone who stands for higher ideals rather than a simplistic, animalistic need for survival. And who holds to those values despite all the evil the cons throw at him. *waves OP pompoms*
Like you say Gok, his compassion isn't a weakness, its what defines him and makes him an autobot The very fact that the Decepticons lack compassion is what makes them Decepticons, its how they are able to commit the atrocities that they do.

I remember so vividly my grand pappy telling me about his experiences during WWll. He enlightened me to the true nature of war and its varying grotesqueries. One of the things he told me - "it is so very, very easy, to succumb to the powerful allure of hatred and darkness that festers and grows all the more potent inside of us [during wartime]. No one is immune to it. I watched good men, good, but weak men sacrifice their humanity to the depravities that such hatred coaxes from us. It is only the strongest and most courageous of us that retains their compassion, decency, honour in the face of the unspeakable evils of war. Only the very strongest." Not his exact words, but the powerful message it left with me anyway. And it is for that very reason that in terms of awesome leaders Score :OP=100000000 Dai Atlas= -1000000000 and Michael Bay's OP= -infinity

Compassion aint a weakness in war Gok, its the single most important safe guard to your humanity.

[GoktimusPrime]

I pretty much agree with what you've said. Keep in mind that "good" and "evil" are often very subjective ideals. One person's definition of "good" can be seen as "evil" to someone else and vice versa. I once wrote this fan fic based on a "heroic" Predacon (i.e.: seeing the Predacon cause from their POV and how they might see the Maximals as "evil").

In my post I said, "in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible" - killing your opponents isn't the only way to incapacitate them (but it is the most effective! But also the most incompassionate!). And yeah, it's because the Autobots come from a more altruistic school of morality that they would prefer more passive and self-defensive martial arts like Diffusion.

And Diffusion is based on real-life internal ("soft") martial arts, which I personally prefer over more aggressive external ("hard") styles. External martial arts focus more on speed, ferocity, strength and agility whereas internal martial arts have more of a focus on self-awareness, relaxed leverage, and supple muscle tension (whereas external styles use brute force). Examples of internal martial arts IRL include:
* Jujutsu
* Aikido
* Tai Chi/Taijiquan
* Xingyiquan (Form Intention Boxing)
* Baguazhang (Eight Trigram Palm)
* Liuhebafa (Six Harmony Eight Methods)
* Northern Praying Mantis
...etc. Having said that, it's important to note that all martial arts have internal and external elements in them. Even though Karate is commonly classified as an external martial art, the Okinawan Karate style "Goju" means "Hard and soft." And there are explosive movements in Taijiquan (particularly Chen style).

-------------------------------------------------------
P.S.: Jet Judo is another 'internal' Cybertronian martial art - essentially a grappling/wrestling/submission style, only that your opponent is a supersonic jet in mid-flight! Bumblebee also used Diffusion when he fought Barricade in the 2007 movie.