New Transformers History book (fiction): The Covenant of Primus

[theheretic]

That certainly is an exciting prospect for future TF story-telling. As a BW fan, I'm jealous that the BW continuity didn't have that sort of support behind it at the time.



That made perfect sense at the time, to me at least anyway.

BW bots are from the future - a future where the Autobots win the Great War, thanks in no small part to Optimus Prime. So if someone went back in time and killed Prime, history would be rewritten.

That's how I understood it anyway. No paradox there.

That makes sense in a simple form BUT would any of the BW transformers exist if G1 Optimus died before G1 happened? Even if the great "downgrade" did still occur then it is highly unlikely that the events which originally occurred to send the TF's back to ancient Earth would happen. It's basically the grandfather paradox. If you change an important piece of the past then the future from that point would be drastically altered.

[theheretic]

Don't take it the wrong way though, it was a good watch and I'll re visit it all again at some point soon.

[Verno]

That makes sense in a simple form BUT would any of the BW transformers exist if G1 Optimus died before G1 happened? Even if the great "downgrade" did still occur then it is highly unlikely that the events which originally occurred to send the TF's back to ancient Earth would happen. It's basically the grandfather paradox. If you change an important piece of the past then the future from that point would be drastically altered.

Optimus Prime didn't die from the damage BW Megatron inflicted upon him. Prime's Spark began to re-integrate with the Matrix/Allspark, and when this happened, we began to see the BW characters phase in and out of existence.

But the BW Maximals managed to repair Prime's body, and all was back to normal.

If Prime had died, then the BW characters would have vanished. But because Prime was saved, the BW characters remained alive. Nothing changed in the past, so therefore nothing changes in the future.

[theheretic]

Oh okay. See I can't remember it. I was just sure there was some drastic problems. Maybe it occurred when they went back to cybertron.

[Sky Shadow]

Oh okay. See I can't remember it. I was just sure there was some drastic problems. Maybe it occurred when they went back to cybertron.

You're right that the plan wouldn't have worked from a logical POV - if BW Megatron had killed Optimus Prime and the Maximals never existed - as was the plan - then Megatron wouldn't have been there with the Maximals to kill Optimus Prime in the first place. But it was a great season cliffhanger.

[Verno]

You're right that the plan wouldn't have worked from a logical POV - if BW Megatron had killed Optimus Prime and the Maximals never existed - as was the plan - then Megatron wouldn't have been there with the Maximals to kill Optimus Prime in the first place. But it was a great season cliffhanger.

Sure the plan would have worked. Time Travel gets a bit confusing, but you mustn't forget that there is always a first time through. Allow me to try and explain what I mean. I say try because I won't do justice too what is in my head :P

Now, G1 Megatron left a message on the Golden Disk instructing anyone who found the message to go back in time and kill Optimus Prime while Prime (and everyone else on board the Ark) slept. So, BW Megatron found the message and followed orders. He went back in time and, eventually, attempted to kill Optimus Prime.

The argument you're making is that BW Megatron is erasing his own past and thus could never go back in time and kill Prime. But if you use the theory of the 'first time through', then yes, BW Megatron erases himself from history, but the consequences of his actions up until the point that he fires on Prime will stay - IE, Prime being dead.

At the end of the day, it's fiction -- we have to bend the rules of reality a little

[Sky Shadow]

But if you use the theory of the 'first time through', then yes, BW Megatron erases himself from history, but the consequences of his actions up until the point that he fires on Prime will stay - IE, Prime being dead.

If time works that way then Beast Wars Megatron would have been the ultimate forgotten martyr suicide bomber, since there's no way he would exist in the future he's creating. It also that means Beast Wars is a completely separate continuity from the G1 cartoon or comics and I'm pretty sure it even contradicts its own argument that "history's still being made" in Nemesis. The reason that "The history tracks never mentioned" the Autobot shuttle is because the the future the Maximals and Predacons come from is one in which their actions have already changed the past. Which means the two Megatrons' plan is always destined to fail.

[theheretic]

There is always the theory that if you go back in time and change something then you create a new alternate universe instead of altering your own. As for the "first time through" theory, is that still plausible if you go back in time, kill your grandfather before he meets your grandmother? Thus your father never existed to "make" ;-) you who would then go back in time...

DAT paradox

[Verno]

If time works that way then Beast Wars Megatron would have been the ultimate forgotten martyr suicide bomber, since there's no way he would exist in the future he's creating.

Yep. As BW Megatron approaches the offline form of Optimus Prime, BW Megs says something along the lines of "Unwilling though I was to follow my namesake's instructions, it has all come down to this: the ultimate risk, for the ultimate prize" or something, basically meaning BW Megatron fully understands that he'll be wiped from history by undertaking this act.

It also that means Beast Wars is a completely separate continuity from the G1 cartoon or comics...

Yep. BW doesn't tie directly into G1 Marvel, G1 Sunbow or G2. It's a continuity all on its own where events similar to events seen in Marvel G1, Sunbow G1 and G2 have occurred in the past. (I've been constructing this amalgam Universe/BW Continuity in all my writings).

...and I'm pretty sure it even contradicts its own argument that "history's still being made" in Nemesis.

G1 Megatron's spark wasn't back in his own body yet, so the timestream still wasn't back to where it should be, so the argument could be made that time was still in flux and thus malleable. All theoretical of course.

The reason that "The history tracks never mentioned" the Autobot shuttle is because the the future the Maximals and Predacons come from is one in which their actions have already changed the past.

A lot of G1-era information was withheld from the Maximal population in the Pax Cybertronian era. The location of Earth itself being a prime example - thus why BW Megs had to steal the Golden Disk in the first place. It's easy to surmise that such information like the full schematics of the Ark were among the information withheld.

Which means the two Megatrons' plan is always destined to fail.

But that would mean that history can never be changed, which is not as exciting for science fiction writing and stories.

There is always the theory that if you go back in time and change something then you create a new alternate universe instead of altering your own.

I guess the 'new alternate universe' and 'first time through' theory could be the same, because you're going back to a point and causing a schism, which I guess could be a breaking or branching off from that point.

The problem with that is that we saw a Time Storm in BW, with time being rewritten around them and the Maximals phasing in and out of reality, which could mean that they're still in the same, original universe rather than a new one.

As for the "first time through" theory, is that still plausible if you go back in time, kill your grandfather before he meets your grandmother? Thus your father never existed to "make" ;-) you who would then go back in time...

DAT paradox

To use the analogy, we make G1 Megs the grandfather and BW Megs the grandson. You still have to allow the first time through to run through, with BW Megs going back in time. The Time Storm we see in BW is everything being rewritten from the consequence of BW Megs' actions. BW Megs will disappear, but the consequences from his actions remain.

[lancalot]

Amazon open to pre-order now.... $49 special ...... that 50% off the rrp

http://www.amazon.com/Transformers-C..._gw_p_t_1_6F7M