The Soapbox IV: Top 10 Characters of All Time

[dirge]

Chances are if you don't understand the success of Armada then you are not seeing it from the perspective of a typical male child.

The commercial success of Armada doesn't impress me one bit, though. I don't care how many kids liked the show - because there was almost character development and awful dialogue. Optimus Prime, Megatron & Hot Shot all address their troops as "men", when none of them were commanding men. I was very unimpressed with this and other aspects of the dubbed dialogue.

There are HUGE amounts of marketing research that go into understanding/exploiting the child market. McDonalds and Disney are notorious for it. Hasbro most probably does it too.

McDonalds are in a far more competitive market, mind you. They have to compete with Wendys, Burger King, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Subway, Dominos, Arbys and others in the USA. I can't really comment on Disney.

Hasbro's only serious competitor in the US market is Mattel. They've bought all the other competitors (Kenner, Tonka, Galoob, etc). I'd be surprised if Hasbro bother doing endless market research when they've spent the last 15 years buying all the brands in the toy aisle.

Some of Hasbro's recent efforts smack of underestimating kids, too. FABs were aimed at 8 year olds. Most eight year olds would see them as baby toys... when I was five I was playing with G1 Jazz and co. Hasbro now believes that five year olds should be playing with Cyberslammers. If Hasbro did in fact do market research on these lines, I'm worried about the next generation!

[Tober]

I didn't like Armada either, Energon even less. Cybertron I did kinda like. There's little correlation between my personal preferences and the success of the various toy lines.

I had to look after my mate's kids a few years ago in the morning when Pokemon was on. Their kids liked it heaps even though 90%+ of the eps were the same thing. On the few occasions where there was actual character development I actually liked it - the kids didn't. Why? Because there were no battles.

Children want different things in their shows than adults. What you want in a show doesn't really matter - Hasbro's obligations lie in appeasing their investors and distributors, not adult collectors. Not in weather this next ridiculous fight scene is going to further advance the plot.

The minds of children and adults are different. Have a read through the various Animated Episode review threads and you will see a trend in what most of us think of Bumblebee. Guess who the most popular Animated character is amongst children...

I would rather see more new Alternator and Masterpiece molds but they don't have any real supporting fiction and are barely profitable to Hasbro. If I had the money I would buy them out and force them to make more, but I'm a few Billion short. Maybe ask Tiby for a loan if you think you can do a better job at turning out a profit than Hasbro are.

[jaydisc]

the cleverness of the Transformation

because there was almost character development and awful dialogue

Some of Hasbro's recent efforts smack of underestimating kids, too.

I don't think you're understanding my (and seemingly Tober's) point. We probably both agree with all of the above sentiments, but Hasbro's approach is working, despite all of your alleged shortcomings, but rather quite possible due to them.

[kup]

I would say 'Kids TODAY are different'.

[dirge]

I never said I'm worried about Hasbro turning a profit

Getting back to the original point of this discussion, I don't think Armada's Hot Shot can be classed as one of the top ten Transformers characters of all time, regardless of how successful that series may have been - purely because he was poorly portrayed and the dialogue in Armada was so badly written.

If kids liked Armada purely for the fight scenes, then I think it's fair to say that Hot Shot's character (or lack of it, actually) has anything to do with Armada's success. Instead the dramatic fight scenes are the hallmark of that series, rather than any character.

[kup]

I never said I'm worried about Hasbro turning a profit

Getting back to the original point of this discussion, I don't think Armada's Hot Shot can be classed as one of the top ten Transformers characters of all time, regardless of how successful that series may have been - purely because he was poorly portrayed and the dialogue in Armada was so badly written.

If kids liked Armada purely for the fight scenes, then I think it's fair to say that Hot Shot's character (or lack of it, actually) has anything to do with Armada's success. Instead the dramatic fight scenes are the hallmark of that series, rather than any character.

I disagree, aside from the Unicron Battles part, the fight things in Armada were terrible.

[Lord_Zed]

j

STL... okay. I'll disect your list.

1) Optimus Prime - not really a very interesting character, in concept. But yeah, he's iconic. So fair enough, I'll live with that one.

2) Megatron - again, iconic. A more interesting character than Prime, overall.

3) Bumblebee - a good character, used a lot, developed well. I agree.

4) Starscream - no way. Very well known, but not really a character I've ever found especially interesting. He did receive a lot of attention (if not character development), despite being a fairly simple character. As an icon, he's fairly well known, but I'd easily rank Soundwave above Screamer.

5) Soundwave - Iconic, well developed in the G1 comic (if not the cartoon). The concept of the character is good, even if Sunbow really didn't use it.

6) Devastator - Not really much character there, but as an identifiable icon - which is where you seem to be coming from, yeah he's right up there.

7) Grimlock - A good character, developed well whenever used. Not usually the nicest guy but the flawed characters are often the most interesting. Iconic and just plain fun!

8) Unicron - Okay, again not a whole lot of character, since he's really just a giant eating machine. But in terms of profile, he's up there.

9) Blackarachnia - Not really iconic, but like Grimlock she's a really good concept which has been developed well.

10) Hot Shot - bwahahaha. The kids in the ad breaks had more character development than anyone in Armada. I'm sorry.

My ten? Well, I'm taking their icon status/recognition into account, but really I'm looking for the character that have made TFs memorable...

1) Megatron - the embodiment of evil for a generation.

2) Soundwave - such an icon, "that cassette guy" probably the best known G1 Decepticon. Sure he wasn't much more than a storage for the cassettes in the G1 cartoon, but the comic gave him the depth he deserved.

3) Optimus Prime. Yes, he's Captain America trapped inside a truck, but he's too iconic to ignore, despite being a shallow character. If the character was more interesting to begin with he'd be #1.

4) Grimlock - A really good concept which was developed well. And an icon.

5) BW Megatron - a much more sinister and cunning version of the G1 version

6) Optimus Primal - The flawed hero is just much more exciting. This guy is forced to be a hero, and does a good job. And he's not Mr Perfect as Optimus Prime is often portrayed.

7) Blackarachnia - just a really well developed character, who added so much to Beast Wars.

8) Bumblebee - I'll lump the G1 & Movie boys together here, since they're really representing the same concept. The small, tough, Autobot makes the franchise accessible.

9) Cheetor - A character who developed very well through Beast Wars. And he even managed to survive as the same concept into Beast Machines, despite that series throwing out the history of many BW characters. The concept of Cheetor is fairly unremarkable, but he was just done so well.

10) Ginrai. Yeah, he's obscure. Yeah, he's technically a human in charge of a transtector. But, like Optimal Primal, he had the mantle of leadershp thrust on him - and also had to deal with becoming a giant robot. During the course of the Masterforce cartoon his character was well developed from the young, carefree, traveller to the bloke who accepts he has to save the world.

Honourable mentions to go Shockwave (comics) & Sky-Byte. Tarantulas probably would have made this list if BW hadn't been canned before all was revealed about him.

Yes, I realise I haven't included much from the later years. Armada was rubbish in terms of character depth, I haven't seen Energon or Animated, nor enough Cybertron to really comment on the characters there (hence my ignoring those series). RiD's character were generally shallow, although Sky-Byte was just so much fun!

I think you missed the point a bit, although truth be told STL did say character, what he should have said is Icon. The explanation he gave implies these are Iconic characters that are recognisable beyond just the fandom. in that regard Prime is more recognisable than Megatron.

If you were writing a list of the most interesting characters or personalities then that would be a lot different. In that regard I'm not sure what your aiming for in the your list.While #4 onwards are all deserving interesting characters Megs, Soundwave and Prime are pretty simple. All 3 are iconic but their personalities are simple. G1 Megatron is your cut and dried cartoon megalomaniac, Soundwave had more personality on the comic but he was limited to just being a schemer who feigned loyalty, no development there. And Prime well you already summed that up.

In terms of TF characters with depth, no list would be complete without Dinobot and Scorponok.

[dirge]

I don't think you're understanding my (and seemingly Tober's) point. We probably both agree with all of the above sentiments, but Hasbro's approach is working, despite all of your alleged shortcomings, but rather quite possible due to them.

I think Hasbro's approach works because there are few alternatives in the marketplace.

Between them, Hasbro and Mattel control something like 80% of the US toy marketplace. If a kid wants to buy an action figure (and he probably does), his options are relatively limited. In the 1980s we had Matchbox's Voltron, Mattel's Masters of the Universe, Hasbro's Transformers, Kenner's Mask, Tonka's Gobots and more.

Hasbro bought Kenner and eventually let the brand fade away. Matchbox is now owned by Mattel, and so is now relegated to producing its signature line. Tonka was bought by Hasbro and is also only producing its signature line.

Of course, the penetration of games consoles has also reduced the popularity of toys to an extent, and has most likely affected the expectations of kids (attention span, sensitivity to violence).

It would be interesting to see how Armada would have fared if it was released as a competitor to G1 (similar to Gobots) - obviously the animation is of a different era, and the toy technology differs - I'm talking about style and focus. We'll never know, of course, but G1 did well in a more competitive market.

For what it's worth, I think Beast Wars would have given G1 a real run for its money (actually, it would have whupped a$$!).

[dirge]

If you were writing a list of the most interesting characters or personalities then that would be a lot different. In that regard I'm not sure what your aiming for in the your list.While #4 onwards are all deserving interesting characters Megs, Soundwave and Prime are pretty simple. All 3 are iconic but their personalities are simple. G1 Megatron is your cut and dried cartoon megalomaniac, Soundwave had more personality on the comic but he was limited to just being a schemer who feigned loyalty, no development there. And Prime well you already summed that up.

You're right - Prime and Megatron are cookie cutter in many respects. But as I said, I did take into consideration the iconic status of characters. While I think (comic) Soundwave is interesting, these three are so ridiculously iconic that I couldn't leave them out. Prime's stupidly heroic nature is shallow, Megatron is a classic cartoon villian, but they embody <i>Transformers</i>, so their presence in the list reflects how crucial they are to almost any Transformers story.

In terms of TF characters with depth, no list would be complete without Dinobot and Scorponok.

Yeah, Scorponok is interesting, although he's outside my top list. And yeah I forgot Dinobot

[Tober]

I would say 'Kids TODAY are different'.

Kids today can turn on Tivo or a games console. Most other entertainmant they want they can download. Their parents can order their toys from online shops and leave negative feedback if it doesn't ship next day.

Back then kids still read comics, rode bikes to exotic toy stores searching for toys to swap price labels with and then go back home to beat up their siblings... great times.

Kids today wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes back in 1984.

(double posted - deleted one & fixed a typo - dirge)